ecrozier
Well-Known Member
Have just sent her the links thanks thistle.
Having a horse PTS for behavioral reason - would you? Have you?
- Thread starter ecrozier
- Start date
siennamum
Well-Known Member
My youngster had a similar start to this mare I think. When he was backed by previous owner he went up in horror and was promptly put back in the field.
His reaction to anything he didn't like was then to rear. When he first did it with me, it was clear that he was trying to scare me, and was in complete control. I was never afraid that he would go over, he was far too balanced. He hasn't reared for months now and I have him pretty sussed and no fears about riding him or putting anyone else on him.
I think with a new rider he would test them and see if he could rear them into submission, so I will always have to be careful that he is treated consistently. I would have to be very careful if I ever sold him to be honest with purchasers and clear about what techniques I have used to get him over his attitude.
In total my boy reared probs about 8 times. He never learned to behave as badly as the mare you are describing but I think would have gotten as bad as the mare very, very quickly. It is quite feasible that the mare is just completely naughty, my boy was on that path but no-where near as far gone, but I wouldn't want to be the one to straighten her out. Unless the current owner is going to keep her and persist with her then IMO she should PTS and move on.
His reaction to anything he didn't like was then to rear. When he first did it with me, it was clear that he was trying to scare me, and was in complete control. I was never afraid that he would go over, he was far too balanced. He hasn't reared for months now and I have him pretty sussed and no fears about riding him or putting anyone else on him.
I think with a new rider he would test them and see if he could rear them into submission, so I will always have to be careful that he is treated consistently. I would have to be very careful if I ever sold him to be honest with purchasers and clear about what techniques I have used to get him over his attitude.
In total my boy reared probs about 8 times. He never learned to behave as badly as the mare you are describing but I think would have gotten as bad as the mare very, very quickly. It is quite feasible that the mare is just completely naughty, my boy was on that path but no-where near as far gone, but I wouldn't want to be the one to straighten her out. Unless the current owner is going to keep her and persist with her then IMO she should PTS and move on.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
I've had a mare put to sleep due to extreme behavioural issues.
She was entirely unpredictable to ride, somedays fine, sometimes so mental she would dump the professional rider (tried three different ones of those, they all thought she was fine until the day she would flip).
She was prone to panic attacks (the vet actually came out with me on a hack), she would freeze and it would be impossible to move her forwards, backwards or sideways regardless of what other horses were doing. She refused to jump, but would dump you on the jump and then jump you and the jump from a standstill.
She box walked insesantly but fence walked the moment she was turned out. She would not load on a lorry, she would pull back when tied up (again and again and again), she would rear up and strike out at you if you tried to catch her.
She had endless investigations (ovaries, regumate, saddle, teeth), professionals and behaviourists. People mentioned PTS to me, the first time I thought 'never!', by the fourth time someone suggested PTS I saw the wisdom in it.
She was entirely unpredictable to ride, somedays fine, sometimes so mental she would dump the professional rider (tried three different ones of those, they all thought she was fine until the day she would flip).
She was prone to panic attacks (the vet actually came out with me on a hack), she would freeze and it would be impossible to move her forwards, backwards or sideways regardless of what other horses were doing. She refused to jump, but would dump you on the jump and then jump you and the jump from a standstill.
She box walked insesantly but fence walked the moment she was turned out. She would not load on a lorry, she would pull back when tied up (again and again and again), she would rear up and strike out at you if you tried to catch her.
She had endless investigations (ovaries, regumate, saddle, teeth), professionals and behaviourists. People mentioned PTS to me, the first time I thought 'never!', by the fourth time someone suggested PTS I saw the wisdom in it.
classicalfan
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is often very difficult. In our experience, many of the 'hyper-sensitive' horses we come across are actually some of the most talented. We have been able to place horses like this with new owners in the past but then we do it for a living. And there are lots of other people out there who work with difficult horses, Kelly Marks, Max, etc and they are all the sort of people who can often be able to find the right person for that horse due to their large network of contacts. It might be worth contacting one of them, perhaps, to see if they can help or know of someone who may be interested. We would love to help but we aren't based in the UK.
mybutterfly
Well-Known Member
Sad thing to have to do. But sounds like the most responsible thing to do and your friend would have the support of every truly knowledgeable horse person in the country. I have been there and don't regret it for a minute. I never have to worry about him again.
ecrozier
Well-Known Member
Siennamum that sounds exactly like she probably started out. When she goes up it's never panicked, it's all about getting her own way. Owner always said she never felt at risk of going over although supposedly she now has with the girl that bought then returned her 
I think if this mare had been sorted from the beginning she might have a very different story however previous owner was clearly TERRIFIED of her in hand let alone under saddle, we had to load her (she stood up then too ) as vendor wouldn't get involved! Booboos and mybutterfly thanks for your experiences.
Classicalfan thanks. I have used Max before and he is an old friend of my farrier, and that is one avenue that is under discussion at the moment. Owner just needs a few debts paying and mare to be sound and then she may well call him for a chat. Unfortunately I wouldn't say she is an excessively talented mare - I'm sure with the right rider she might go PN or thereabouts but she's not going to attract the type of pro who might have the time to put into her I don't think so would be a case of trying anyone's connections that might know the right type of person.
I think if this mare had been sorted from the beginning she might have a very different story however previous owner was clearly TERRIFIED of her in hand let alone under saddle, we had to load her (she stood up then too ) as vendor wouldn't get involved! Booboos and mybutterfly thanks for your experiences. Classicalfan thanks. I have used Max before and he is an old friend of my farrier, and that is one avenue that is under discussion at the moment. Owner just needs a few debts paying and mare to be sound and then she may well call him for a chat. Unfortunately I wouldn't say she is an excessively talented mare - I'm sure with the right rider she might go PN or thereabouts but she's not going to attract the type of pro who might have the time to put into her I don't think so would be a case of trying anyone's connections that might know the right type of person.
Bubbles
Well-Known Member
I put my 6yo down due to severe behavioural difficulties.
He was a bolter, had him with Michael Peace for 3 months - Mike has never had a horse for that long - followed up by help from one of the best event riders in the business. He had everyone stumped. Eventually a gait abnormality was spotted, bute trial showed nothing, even resorted to fluphenazine to see if that helped. In the end he had a full work up, including full exams for a brain tumour. He was found to have some sclerosis of a few spiney processes in his back, and some desmitis of hind suspensories. We could have treated those things, but the neurologist he was under described him as mentally ill. So that was that. Emotionally and financially I was shot to pieces, but I can at least sleep at night knowing my lovely little horse isn't being passed from pillar to post.
He was a bolter, had him with Michael Peace for 3 months - Mike has never had a horse for that long - followed up by help from one of the best event riders in the business. He had everyone stumped. Eventually a gait abnormality was spotted, bute trial showed nothing, even resorted to fluphenazine to see if that helped. In the end he had a full work up, including full exams for a brain tumour. He was found to have some sclerosis of a few spiney processes in his back, and some desmitis of hind suspensories. We could have treated those things, but the neurologist he was under described him as mentally ill. So that was that. Emotionally and financially I was shot to pieces, but I can at least sleep at night knowing my lovely little horse isn't being passed from pillar to post.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
as the pros had no reported problems I'd be in clined to think rider horse incompatibilit tbh, that she might get on better in a different yard
Holidays_are_coming
Well-Known Member
I would when I brought my mare she had been owned by someone who was terrified of her, and she had learnt to rear, but luckly they were tiny and after my initial fear, she was easy to turn round (she also had ulcers) now she is a star! However if that wasnt the case and I had tried everything else I would PTS.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
I don't want to start a war here, but...
It's all about this mare's undesirable behaviour, but nothing has been mentioned regarding how she is handled prior to, during, or after her 'outbursts', or anything of her history.
I appreciate that such things as tumours and reproductive system abnormalities can cause havoc in some mares, but my experience tells me that human error causes many problems which, with some thought, experienced handling, and consistency, can be addressed favourably.
I have worked with some dangerous horses which were on their last warnings, and I believe that their behaviour was entirely down to human failings. There is always a trigger, and when that can be identified the work to repair the damage can begin. Learned behaviours, particularly where fear or restraint have been factors, can be difficult to resolve, but not impossible.
With respect to your friend, as I'm sure she is very concerned for the welfare of the mare and is desperate to avoid any more danger to horse or human, there is nothing to be gained from trying to ride this horse at the moment. However, it may just be that rehabilitation, through groundwork, albeit lengthy and complicated, may just be beneficial for this mare and avoid her being put to sleep.
In answer to the question, though, if a horse was dangerous and no reason could be found, nor could any headway be made in improving the behaviour, I would PTS rather than risk injury to anyone else.
It's all about this mare's undesirable behaviour, but nothing has been mentioned regarding how she is handled prior to, during, or after her 'outbursts', or anything of her history.
I appreciate that such things as tumours and reproductive system abnormalities can cause havoc in some mares, but my experience tells me that human error causes many problems which, with some thought, experienced handling, and consistency, can be addressed favourably.
I have worked with some dangerous horses which were on their last warnings, and I believe that their behaviour was entirely down to human failings. There is always a trigger, and when that can be identified the work to repair the damage can begin. Learned behaviours, particularly where fear or restraint have been factors, can be difficult to resolve, but not impossible.
With respect to your friend, as I'm sure she is very concerned for the welfare of the mare and is desperate to avoid any more danger to horse or human, there is nothing to be gained from trying to ride this horse at the moment. However, it may just be that rehabilitation, through groundwork, albeit lengthy and complicated, may just be beneficial for this mare and avoid her being put to sleep.
In answer to the question, though, if a horse was dangerous and no reason could be found, nor could any headway be made in improving the behaviour, I would PTS rather than risk injury to anyone else.
stroppymare153
Well-Known Member
sadly agree with this, given that owner seems to have tried everything. Also, the mare surely can't be enjoying life. Horrid position to be in though. <<hugs>> for your friend that she has the strength to make the decision.
don't necessarily agree with this though - we very nearly had a horse pts for apparent behavioural problems. turned out to have a physical reason (not pain) and once that was fixed, and with plenty of chill time he is now completely laid back, happy and in full work. Sad that so many aren't as lucky as we were.
ecrozier
Well-Known Member
She is not currently being ridden. In terms of handling she is handled exactly the same as all the other horses on the yard? Typically when she has an outburst she gallops off across yard/field, is retrieved and returned to whatever it was she was doing before, presently most likely to be standing still as she is lame. Her history as far as we know was she was bred, kept on large farm in a herd, backed as a 4 year old and started this behaviour (we don't know anything about this process) and then friend bought her as a 5 year old out of the field.
Bubbles and lui23456 thanks for your stories, lui glad you mare is ok now and bubbles yes at least you know he is at peace.
SusieT the 'pros' that had her were friend of friend's daughter, she attempted to go up once and they booted her through it and sold her a week later. Useful to note that she was kept alone there and was in a strange place though so the napping element would be reduced. She then went to another home where she ended up being so bad they returned her..
Bubbles and lui23456 thanks for your stories, lui glad you mare is ok now and bubbles yes at least you know he is at peace.
SusieT the 'pros' that had her were friend of friend's daughter, she attempted to go up once and they booted her through it and sold her a week later. Useful to note that she was kept alone there and was in a strange place though so the napping element would be reduced. She then went to another home where she ended up being so bad they returned her..
ajn1610
Well-Known Member
It sounds as if the owner has done all the correct things in terms of trying to establish a physical reason for the behaviour. As the horse has had a Vet to it several times assuming that they are competent I'm sure they've eliminated all the likely possibilities. Of course it could be something unusual but even if that is the case there is a limit to how much time, effort and (not nice but realistic) money an owner can spend searching for something that might never be found, or alternatively may be untreatable.
I'm very reassured to hear the owner is not thinking of breeding, it never ceases to amaze me how many people think it's ok to have a foal from a mentally or physically unsound mare!
I can also appreciate the thinking that moving the mare on may have helped break the bad cycle. I feel so long as you are 100% upfront and honest, which it sounds as if was the case, then it's the buyers decision and their responsibility.
The owner could pursue the behavioural route, but it's likely to require a fairly significant further financial input and be a long slog. IMO at this stage the behaviour is probably so ingrained you are also unlikely to completely resolve it, although I've seen behaviourists do some amazing things and I'm sure the right person could improve the mare and develop some coping strategies. It comes down to how much more the owner is prepared to do, she sounds sensible and experienced, we aren't dealing with the horse she is, if it's bad enough to be thinking pts she must be fairly convinced she's reached the end of the road.
If that is the case it may well just be coming to terms with the decision and the guilt associated with putting a 'healthy' horse down. That's a human perspective. Horses have no sense of their own mortality, they aren't even self aware. The mare will simply think it's another Vet visit, there are much much worse things than being humanly destroyed in their own home. Sometimes it's the only choice and it's the best one.
I'm very reassured to hear the owner is not thinking of breeding, it never ceases to amaze me how many people think it's ok to have a foal from a mentally or physically unsound mare!
I can also appreciate the thinking that moving the mare on may have helped break the bad cycle. I feel so long as you are 100% upfront and honest, which it sounds as if was the case, then it's the buyers decision and their responsibility.
The owner could pursue the behavioural route, but it's likely to require a fairly significant further financial input and be a long slog. IMO at this stage the behaviour is probably so ingrained you are also unlikely to completely resolve it, although I've seen behaviourists do some amazing things and I'm sure the right person could improve the mare and develop some coping strategies. It comes down to how much more the owner is prepared to do, she sounds sensible and experienced, we aren't dealing with the horse she is, if it's bad enough to be thinking pts she must be fairly convinced she's reached the end of the road.
If that is the case it may well just be coming to terms with the decision and the guilt associated with putting a 'healthy' horse down. That's a human perspective. Horses have no sense of their own mortality, they aren't even self aware. The mare will simply think it's another Vet visit, there are much much worse things than being humanly destroyed in their own home. Sometimes it's the only choice and it's the best one.
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Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Snap. No horse on this planet is worth getting hurt for or having the propensity of harming others. My conscience wouldn't let me pass her on anywhere however skilled they were.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Just to qualify this a bit, I had a horse with a brain tumour and when he lost it he got angry, not careless. My trainer at the time pushed me to put him down partly because he was worried that if we ever a situation where I came off the horse, he might very well go for me. I do have a good sized scar on my arm where he bit me one day when I tripped and put my hand against him to steady myself, so there was some validity to the concern!
Interestingly, a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumour and one of the first obvious signs, far before declines in his speech, motor control etc, was a tendency to become angry quickly and irrationally, and a general inability to control his temper when he did get irritated. It was really quite scary in someone who had always been reasonable (he was a lawyer) and would certainly have been more so if we hadn't have known the circumstances. Apparently this is a very common effect.
I also knew three offspring of the same mare who were clearly mad. I knew where they'd been, who'd been looking after them etc. so it wasn't circumstance. Interestingly, the kids all looked normal (in appearance, not behaviour) but I saw the mare later and she, most definitely, did not look sane. If she had been a person you would have crossed the street. It is VERY, VERY rare for a horse to be "not right in the head" for no reason (I'd say I've met four or five out of literally thousands of horses and, by definition, I meet a lot that are having problems) but it does happen. All the others I've met had something behind their behaviour but knowing there's a problem, even knowing what it is, isn't always the same thing as being able to fix it.
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noname
Well-Known Member
Hi,
I know this sounds wack, but it is a cheap option: have you tried one of the those horse communicators / psycolgoists or whatever they call themselves?
I'm only suggesting it because its cheap (I've heard £10) and you would only want to PTS as a very last resort. I'd want to try everything. You just send them a picture of the horses head and then they "look into their eyes" and can tell they you what is wrong with the horse /or the horse tells them!!! A friend says one has diagnosed lameness in the horse, so they use them first as its cheaper than the vet! They think they communicate on the horse with another level or something.
Only a thought, I imagine they come up with some rubbish a lot of the time, but worth a shot if your so desperate.
Good luck.
I know this sounds wack, but it is a cheap option: have you tried one of the those horse communicators / psycolgoists or whatever they call themselves?
I'm only suggesting it because its cheap (I've heard £10) and you would only want to PTS as a very last resort. I'd want to try everything. You just send them a picture of the horses head and then they "look into their eyes" and can tell they you what is wrong with the horse /or the horse tells them!!! A friend says one has diagnosed lameness in the horse, so they use them first as its cheaper than the vet! They think they communicate on the horse with another level or something.
Only a thought, I imagine they come up with some rubbish a lot of the time, but worth a shot if your so desperate.
Good luck.
ArcticFox
Well-Known Member
PTS - good option. Sad but true
She is not safe with someone else, as you say not suitable for breeding, blood bank or ET.
Better to do it before someone gets injured.
I think you shouldn't feel bad about it, the horse sounds dangerous as very unpredictable and you have tried to find out if there is anything wrong so to me it sounds like you have covered all options.
Sorry
She is not safe with someone else, as you say not suitable for breeding, blood bank or ET.
Better to do it before someone gets injured.
I think you shouldn't feel bad about it, the horse sounds dangerous as very unpredictable and you have tried to find out if there is anything wrong so to me it sounds like you have covered all options.
Sorry
ecrozier
Well-Known Member
Thanks Tarrsteps, she's obviously not mine but I have spent a fair amount of time with her and I genuinely don't think she is 'not right in the head' - she is just extremely stubborn and has unfortunately learned a very effective way to get her own way and I'm not sure anyone will be able to reliably train this out of her.
Noname if it's that cheap it might be worth considering, will suggest it. Always thought those types of thing were very expensive!
Noname if it's that cheap it might be worth considering, will suggest it. Always thought those types of thing were very expensive!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Well, I certainly wouldn't pass her on..........
She's not a candidate for a blood bank or ET.
However, heartbreaking the decision, better put down than killing someone..
She's not a candidate for a blood bank or ET.
However, heartbreaking the decision, better put down than killing someone..
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AmyMay
Situation normal
That is one of the saddest stories, I think i've ever read. Poor mare. You are a wonderful, caring person HH (((( ))))
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Is that not exactly the point TS was making though? That the ones with the brain tumour were to all outward appearances 'normal', just reacted in an unreasonable manner, not unlike this horse? Maybe I misunderstood her post, but the impression I got was that she was saying that the ones she's known with brain tumours were very different from the ones she know who were genuinely bonkers....
ecrozier
Well-Known Member
Yes you are right SC I have misread slightly, I think the point was that some look completely normal, some don't, some are angry when they lose it, some clumsy. I guess it would be very hard to pigeon hole a 'typical' brain tumour horse.
wildcard
Well-Known Member
I think this is a really sad situation firstly cos the horse dosent realise what a good home it has and second because the owner is torn between heart and head.
I always look at situations like this with the attitude animals are not born nasty (some are obviously but mostly not) and so therefore something in there life has created this problem should it be behavoural
many many years back my sister was in a very similar situation x racer tb mare been very badly neglected till my sister took her on started off fine worked on groundwork etc and up till backing.. fine to get on sit up etc then as soon as would ask to go forward would violently rear on more than one occasion went over backwards and actually broke sisters collar bone doing this.. after this she would get very nasty try bit and kick you and generally dangerous to be around.
We were at wits end had all the usual done back, teech saddle you name it and we had it done. So we hit the same place your friend is it.. PTS.. Heartbreaking decision but was what we thought our only option.. didnt want to pass on a dangerous horse..
Spoke to a friend who spoke to us about richard maxwell.. now we were the most unconvinced people in the world sister done all stages at bishop burton and hunts and competes reguarly and had never heard of this guy or his methods.. however thought we owed it to the horse to give one last try even if we didnt really believe... but for our own guilt we felt we had to try before pts..
within 2 minutes of having her in the arena and asking to walk on she went up and over.. cue our eyes closed.. he jumped of and started to have a play with her shoulders.. turned out she had a trapped nerve under her front leg and when been asked to walk forward with weight on was dreadfully painful for her. he spent a couple of hours working with her to retrain her way of thinking to that it dosent hurt anymore and is okay to have people aboard..
This guy saved our horses life and have never looked back..
I agree not all horses purposes in life are to be ridden and looked after by people.. and sometimes PTS is the safest and kindest option, all i can say is be open to suggestions from even the strangest of things not all horses are the same and some people and methods work better for some more than others. there is almost always an underlying issue associated with behavoural issues. The hard part is finding it
Good luck with this hard decision xx
I always look at situations like this with the attitude animals are not born nasty (some are obviously but mostly not) and so therefore something in there life has created this problem should it be behavoural
many many years back my sister was in a very similar situation x racer tb mare been very badly neglected till my sister took her on started off fine worked on groundwork etc and up till backing.. fine to get on sit up etc then as soon as would ask to go forward would violently rear on more than one occasion went over backwards and actually broke sisters collar bone doing this.. after this she would get very nasty try bit and kick you and generally dangerous to be around.
We were at wits end had all the usual done back, teech saddle you name it and we had it done. So we hit the same place your friend is it.. PTS.. Heartbreaking decision but was what we thought our only option.. didnt want to pass on a dangerous horse..
Spoke to a friend who spoke to us about richard maxwell.. now we were the most unconvinced people in the world sister done all stages at bishop burton and hunts and competes reguarly and had never heard of this guy or his methods.. however thought we owed it to the horse to give one last try even if we didnt really believe... but for our own guilt we felt we had to try before pts..
within 2 minutes of having her in the arena and asking to walk on she went up and over.. cue our eyes closed.. he jumped of and started to have a play with her shoulders.. turned out she had a trapped nerve under her front leg and when been asked to walk forward with weight on was dreadfully painful for her. he spent a couple of hours working with her to retrain her way of thinking to that it dosent hurt anymore and is okay to have people aboard..
This guy saved our horses life and have never looked back..
I agree not all horses purposes in life are to be ridden and looked after by people.. and sometimes PTS is the safest and kindest option, all i can say is be open to suggestions from even the strangest of things not all horses are the same and some people and methods work better for some more than others. there is almost always an underlying issue associated with behavoural issues. The hard part is finding it
Good luck with this hard decision xx
skint1
Well-Known Member
She sounds quite a bit like our mare it's very sad and I am sorry for your friend because it sounds like she tried everything the same as we did.
We got our mare as 3yo ex racer so I feel we're responsible for how she is,(which is not the case for your friend) she was skinny and sad and we didn't know what we were doing and spoiled her with treats and things like that, but to be honest she was always awkward about stuff she didn't want to do, it was a struggle just to get her to lift her feet or let her mane be brushed, right from the word go. God knows over the years we threw so much time and money to try and put it right, and to an extent it worked, but she never got past her extreme nappiness when pushed out her comfort zone. I've often wondered if she had pain issues that the chiro, osteo, vet farrier didn't pick up, maybe in her back or hocks...but honestly you can wonder and try all day and never really iron it out sometimes
To her credit though, once we'd established some rules with her she has developed the advantage of being very well behaved on the ground, and she's able to go barefoot so it is possible to keep her for a "pet" and wait for the right situation to come along for her (I was hoping to loan her out as a broodmare) but if I couldn't keep her anymore and no right sort of home on the horizon I guess I would have to pts. Again, so sorry, it's heartbreaking isn't it?
it's very sad and I am sorry for your friend because it sounds like she tried everything the same as we did.We got our mare as 3yo ex racer so I feel we're responsible for how she is,(which is not the case for your friend) she was skinny and sad and we didn't know what we were doing and spoiled her with treats and things like that, but to be honest she was always awkward about stuff she didn't want to do, it was a struggle just to get her to lift her feet or let her mane be brushed, right from the word go. God knows over the years we threw so much time and money to try and put it right, and to an extent it worked, but she never got past her extreme nappiness when pushed out her comfort zone. I've often wondered if she had pain issues that the chiro, osteo, vet farrier didn't pick up, maybe in her back or hocks...but honestly you can wonder and try all day and never really iron it out sometimes
To her credit though, once we'd established some rules with her she has developed the advantage of being very well behaved on the ground, and she's able to go barefoot so it is possible to keep her for a "pet" and wait for the right situation to come along for her (I was hoping to loan her out as a broodmare) but if I couldn't keep her anymore and no right sort of home on the horizon I guess I would have to pts. Again, so sorry, it's heartbreaking isn't it?
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Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
I have heard of even homebred horses that have sadly been PTS as they were dangerous, and that was after exploring every avenue and thinking that there might be pain, but impossile to diagnose with normal veterinary methods. A worrying number of dressage horses too, that people have paid good money for.
Seems to me you have three further avenues - a horse communicator, Richard Maxwell or someone similar or a healer I know who can "scan" a horse and pick up problems (usually later confirmed by a vet). Even so, the problem might be in her mind and there is no other option, for her sake and for the humans around.
Seems to me you have three further avenues - a horse communicator, Richard Maxwell or someone similar or a healer I know who can "scan" a horse and pick up problems (usually later confirmed by a vet). Even so, the problem might be in her mind and there is no other option, for her sake and for the humans around.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
SC has reiterated my point for me 
- the horse I had with a brain tumour looked and behaved normally most of the time. He went to horse shows, he hacked, he tied up, he trailered etc. Now, when he came to us all these things were pretty dicey and he used to lose his [violent] temper very often, so there was every reason to think it was handling/training at the base. (He was free as had broken his owner's arm . . ) As he got more comfortable and understood more of what we were asking, his behaviour did, indeed, improve. The problem was when he DID get frustrated or angry he could fly into a rage like you've never seen. Over time, the triggers became milder - one day my farrier was shoeing him, the horse was standing like a donkey, and when the farrier put down the foot and patted the horse on the neck a little too hard, the horse turned himself inside out! The final straw was a girl who worked for us going into his box (BIG signs saying not to, which are like catnip to stupid people, I now know) and swung a water bucket at him when he got too close and he went for her, big time. She got out but it underlined to me that I simply could not protect the horse and the people around him 24/7. My vet, a very good old-style horseman, and my coach really put the gears to me - I think it was seeing two such experienced horsemen so scared about the situation, convinced me is was well out of the ordinary.
We contacted the vet school and they wanted to horse to come "on the hoof" so they could test him before putting him down but I couldn't do that to him - he was a sweet horse the rest of the time - so we had him done at home and just paid for the autopsy, more to satisfy our curiosity.
In retrospect, the horse was so similar to my friend with a glioblastoma - it was like he was "taken over" when he got even a little bit angry and lost the ability to control himself. Yes, my friend did eventually show more physical signs as the tumour spread but the thing with brain injuries and tumours is they only affect the bits they affect, if that makes sense. There is no cut and dried progression.
I knew another violent/aggressive horse that turned out to have a degenerative kidney condition, although in his case there were, at least in retrospect, physical signs. Didn't stop him jumping big classes though! He actually looked best when he was being ridden, as often looked quite stressed the rest of the time.
The three mad siblings also looked completely normal when they weren't actually being mad. It was their reactions to ordinary circumstances that marked them apart. Perhaps they had an deformity of some sort, who knows. As I said, the dam did look mad to me (I didn't know who she was when I first saw her) but then I knew a bit more by that point so maybe I would have seen the kids coming by then. If you had encountered any one of them out in the world, I'm sure everyone would have put it down to training or injury but three in a row, in a place that produced scores of young horses that weren't mad . . . sorry, but I find that hard to put down to "people".
Now, all that said, I have met many, many, many horses with reactions on the spectrum of the OP horse that had valid reasons for their behaviour, mostly pain related. Actually, all pain related if you include mental pain. It is BY FAR the more common scenario. But, as I said, you can't fix what you can't find. And, sadly, it's been my experience in a lot of such cases that even if you do go someway to sorting the horse you can't erase the experience that's come before and, perhaps most importantly, you can't make the people forget. I've had a couple of cases where people sent the horse away and even when it showed real progress, they frankly admitted they simply did not want it back. Is this a reason to put a horse down? Maybe not on paper but if the horse can't live a good life with people who like it and can provide for its individual needs, there are worse fates . . .
I would say try a communicator or similar. What can it hurt? Then at least your friend can say she explored every avenue, even the ones she was suspicious of.
- the horse I had with a brain tumour looked and behaved normally most of the time. He went to horse shows, he hacked, he tied up, he trailered etc. Now, when he came to us all these things were pretty dicey and he used to lose his [violent] temper very often, so there was every reason to think it was handling/training at the base. (He was free as had broken his owner's arm . . ) As he got more comfortable and understood more of what we were asking, his behaviour did, indeed, improve. The problem was when he DID get frustrated or angry he could fly into a rage like you've never seen. Over time, the triggers became milder - one day my farrier was shoeing him, the horse was standing like a donkey, and when the farrier put down the foot and patted the horse on the neck a little too hard, the horse turned himself inside out! The final straw was a girl who worked for us going into his box (BIG signs saying not to, which are like catnip to stupid people, I now know) and swung a water bucket at him when he got too close and he went for her, big time. She got out but it underlined to me that I simply could not protect the horse and the people around him 24/7. My vet, a very good old-style horseman, and my coach really put the gears to me - I think it was seeing two such experienced horsemen so scared about the situation, convinced me is was well out of the ordinary. We contacted the vet school and they wanted to horse to come "on the hoof" so they could test him before putting him down but I couldn't do that to him - he was a sweet horse the rest of the time - so we had him done at home and just paid for the autopsy, more to satisfy our curiosity.
In retrospect, the horse was so similar to my friend with a glioblastoma - it was like he was "taken over" when he got even a little bit angry and lost the ability to control himself. Yes, my friend did eventually show more physical signs as the tumour spread but the thing with brain injuries and tumours is they only affect the bits they affect, if that makes sense. There is no cut and dried progression.
I knew another violent/aggressive horse that turned out to have a degenerative kidney condition, although in his case there were, at least in retrospect, physical signs. Didn't stop him jumping big classes though! He actually looked best when he was being ridden, as often looked quite stressed the rest of the time.
The three mad siblings also looked completely normal when they weren't actually being mad. It was their reactions to ordinary circumstances that marked them apart. Perhaps they had an deformity of some sort, who knows. As I said, the dam did look mad to me (I didn't know who she was when I first saw her) but then I knew a bit more by that point so maybe I would have seen the kids coming by then. If you had encountered any one of them out in the world, I'm sure everyone would have put it down to training or injury but three in a row, in a place that produced scores of young horses that weren't mad . . . sorry, but I find that hard to put down to "people".
Now, all that said, I have met many, many, many horses with reactions on the spectrum of the OP horse that had valid reasons for their behaviour, mostly pain related. Actually, all pain related if you include mental pain. It is BY FAR the more common scenario. But, as I said, you can't fix what you can't find. And, sadly, it's been my experience in a lot of such cases that even if you do go someway to sorting the horse you can't erase the experience that's come before and, perhaps most importantly, you can't make the people forget. I've had a couple of cases where people sent the horse away and even when it showed real progress, they frankly admitted they simply did not want it back. Is this a reason to put a horse down? Maybe not on paper but if the horse can't live a good life with people who like it and can provide for its individual needs, there are worse fates . . .
I would say try a communicator or similar. What can it hurt? Then at least your friend can say she explored every avenue, even the ones she was suspicious of.
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kerilli
Well-Known Member
i'd try a horse communicator first. i know it's mental, i don't care. i've been shocked and impressed with what they've come up with for my horses. Jackie Weaver is very good, as is Ann Dee. i recommend either of them.
if money wasn't a concern i'd send her to that Australian guy who has a really good reputation with tricky ones, i can't think of his name, he's down south somewhere and a lot of eventers send horses to him. or, to Richard Maxwell. someone on here will know who i mean by the first one.
to me it sounds like a dominance/behavioural thing, rather than a pain thing. her 'stalliony' field behaviour is a big clue. it sounds as if she's learnt to use her strength against people whenever she doesn't want to play. it would take someone very very good, or something very drastic, to convince her to play nicely and not use her power.
i knew a v v good jockey years ago who had a homebred mare who was an absolute witch. used to try to scrape him off on the arena fencing, that sort of thing. at wit's end, he sent her to an old nagsman. she came back a few months later looking appalling but as docile as you could want, and never looked back. apparently the old boy deprived her of water if she wouldn't play nicely... for days on end if necessary. i don't think i could do it (in fact, in the same position, i couldn't bring myself to) but it worked on her...
otherwise, yes, i'd PTS, before she hospitalises someone, or worse. PTS is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse...
i've seen a horse with a brain tumour. as said above, it was fine 99% of the time.
if money wasn't a concern i'd send her to that Australian guy who has a really good reputation with tricky ones, i can't think of his name, he's down south somewhere and a lot of eventers send horses to him. or, to Richard Maxwell. someone on here will know who i mean by the first one.
to me it sounds like a dominance/behavioural thing, rather than a pain thing. her 'stalliony' field behaviour is a big clue. it sounds as if she's learnt to use her strength against people whenever she doesn't want to play. it would take someone very very good, or something very drastic, to convince her to play nicely and not use her power.
i knew a v v good jockey years ago who had a homebred mare who was an absolute witch. used to try to scrape him off on the arena fencing, that sort of thing. at wit's end, he sent her to an old nagsman. she came back a few months later looking appalling but as docile as you could want, and never looked back. apparently the old boy deprived her of water if she wouldn't play nicely... for days on end if necessary. i don't think i could do it (in fact, in the same position, i couldn't bring myself to) but it worked on her...
otherwise, yes, i'd PTS, before she hospitalises someone, or worse. PTS is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse...
i've seen a horse with a brain tumour. as said above, it was fine 99% of the time.
stilltrying
Well-Known Member
Not read all the replies, and not sure where the horse is located, but what about sending to Jason Webb? Got a fantastic rep in this area, and vets are happy to refer to him when they think a problem is behavioural. I used him years ago and can highly recommend.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Jason is the guy kerrili referred to. There are a couple of people on here who have used him so could give the OP some more info to pass along.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
Jason Webb