Having to make a sad decision....advice!

cblover

cblover

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Hi all, hope you had a lovely bank holiday weekend. I'm looking for a bit of support and advice really and I always turn to you peeps first.

My clydesdale mare is 9 this year and I got her last October in a poor state. Having got to know her over the last few months and worked to get her health back up she has needed sedated for feet and teeth. I'm working on her feet every day not progressing much. Turns out she has also got sweet itch and I simply can't have another horse with SI. (I've been there before and it was a nightmare) and locking stifles as she's been very poor. We did want to breed a pure bred foal from her but not now. I wouldn't risk it.

Vet today said I have two choices. One is to find her a retirement home on an exposed field to help with the SI or he would support my decision to PTS. I've never been faced with this before and I'm having a hard time considering it all. Any advice? Thanks.
 
Having had a pony with sweet itch I really do sympathise with you. I know that many people manage it very well but I do think this depends on area, we are particularly bad for midges and I would never contemplate another horse with sweet itch whilst I live here. I think the life they have to lead is awful, permanently covered in rugs, their coats never seeing the sun, constantly surrounded by electric fence to stop the itching that must drive them mad. I hated it and felt desperately sorry for the pony every day.

Much depends on what you plan to do with her. Stifles can be helped by work but if she is unbroken and you are not planning to use her as a riding horse then obviously without the necessary exercise they may be a problem and to add in the sweet itch which may mean she needs to stay in quite alot in the summer they will trouble her.

No one can make a decision for you but if you feel you cannot offer her a good quality of life then I wouldn't hesitate to pts.
 
I think it depends on whether you can get her to the stage where she doesn't need sedation for her feet. If you can't then I don't think it's really practical or fair to have to have her sedated every six weeks or so.

As for the sweet itch, my father had a horse that was horrendous, he was at the point of pts and moved him to the seaside, he still gets it a bit but nowhere near as bad. That being said, putting a nine year old horse into retirement, even if you can find a suitable place, is a huge commitment for what could be the next twenty years and sweet itch is a miserable thing to live with.

I think in all honesty in your shoes I would pts, I'd spoil her rotten for the next week or so and book a date and let her go before the flies are really bad and affecting her. Awful decision for you, but she won't be aware of it and I'd view it as preventing further suffering.
 
Thank you both for being level headed and calm. I need calm and lots of it!

I just can't bring myself to play god with her life span. Who am I to dictate and shorten her life? That's what I struggle with.
 
cblover said:
Thank you both for being level headed and calm. I need calm and lots of it!

I just can't bring myself to play god with her life span. Who am I to dictate and shorten her life? That's what I struggle with.
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Her life span is one thing but if that life span is miserable with no quality of life due to sweet itch and pain from the stifles then pts is something you can give her, pain free forever.
 
You are the responsible person who took her on with the intention of doing all you can to make her well again. If there are issues that mean that really can't happen then you are the best person to decide that it is best for her to not have to suffer this world as it stands for her. Sweet itch, when more than very mild can make their life a complete misery as far as I am concerned.
 
Thanks ester and Doormouse. You are both helping me make sense of things.

I did take her on with good intentions and I feel mad with the people who've had her before me. It's human error that is the route cause of some of her issues and that makes me sad and mad at the same time.

If yesterday's performance is anything to go by, her sweet itch is only going to get worse and, you're right, its awful to see but she's not like that all the time and that's what makes it so hard to make the decision.
 
How bad is the stifle condition, are they constantly locking or do they improve in light work or at rest? I ask because that to me would be the deal breaker not the SI. SI can be managed as others have said, and the feet/teeth thing may improve with time changes in farrier and/or dentist. But if the stifles are going to be causing pain, then that would do it for me. Having said that my mini shetti (a world away from a Clydesdale I know) had locking stifles and they never seemed to cause bother for him. Hence my question.
 
I'm going through the same sort of thing with my mare Zara. She has the most horrendous sweet itch, she is covered with a Boett from March until November and still gets eaten alive by the midges in between both back and front legs and her udders. She also has to wear a fly mask for these months.

Now she has been diagnosed with navicular and arthritis in her front fetlocks so has had to be retired. She loves working and just looks so miserable doing nothing and coping with the sweet itch. I just don't know whether I am brave enough to make that decision though as I wouldn't be thinking about it yet if she were still being ridden. It's the combination of not being able to work and the sweet itch that are making me think along these lines but if I were her, would I rather be dead than itchy and bored - I really don't know :-(
 
She's not backed so not in work. Her stifle doesn't lock out behind her but sticks if she walks backwards or has been at rest then tries to walk off. She's never been worked and with being lean, the vet says it's probably because of that. The biggest problem with her is trying to pick her hind legs up, the leg sticks then unlocks, she panics then kicks out. I think in the past this has lead to some rough handling bless her. Her feet were a mess when I got her, so each time she has had to be sedated. I'm not making progress with her feet and don't want to sedate her each time she needs them trimmed.

She also needed a lot of dental work done and again needed to be sedated.
 
Doormouse said:
Her life span is one thing but if that life span is miserable with no quality of life due to sweet itch and pain from the stifles then pts is something you can give her, pain free forever.
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I agree with this. There some things in life you can not fix, you have tried to make her comfortable and happy, as time goes on she will be less so, so from her point of view let her leave at a good point.
Once the SI really kicks in, her behaviour may be unmanageable, she's a big horse. My heart goes out to you.
 
Why did you buy her? I think the decision on her future needs to be based on this. As some of her issues are worse than you originally thought and the breeding plan is a no go, she isnt in ridden work I gather from your post and presumably not likely to be then Im not sure what else you would keep her for. It sounds as if she wouldnt be able to enjoy an easy retirement, is going to need more than a field and a check over once or twice a day to keep her SI, feet and teeth in good condition and her comfy and happy. I definitely think it is her quality of life that is the issue here, not the length of it. Poor girl, she certainly has more than her fair share of problems and all in all I would think that pts is the sensible and kindest way to go. I think we all have a dream that our horses will live long and happy working lives and then a blissful and pain free retirement. Fortunately it is in our power to make sure that where that isnt possible we can do something to make it better for them. Horrid position to have to be in OP and I wish you the best for making your decision. I certainly wouldnt be judging you if you decide on pts and most on here would agree Im sure x
 
cblover said:
Thank you both for being level headed and calm. I need calm and lots of it!

I just can't bring myself to play god with her life span. Who am I to dictate and shorten her life? That's what I struggle with.
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I think you need to forget about her lifespan, look at it from the opposite viewpoint; who are you to extend her life if it causes pain, discomfort and probably psychological issues? As has been said, life has to be about quality not quantity. I am going through similar issues myself at the moment, although my mare is elderly so it makes it easier to decide; but take age out of the equation and if you have conditions that aren't curable, that will probably worsen in time then I think there is really only one answer.
 
Oh how awful for you and I'm afraid I have to say I agree with the majority on here. If she has no quality of life then what's the point? Have you got the time not to mention money to keep on top of all her ailments?

You've done your absolute best for her so please don't beat yourself up about it. Give her lots of love and attention and let her go quietly.

My heart goes out to you x
 
I've just been to see her now, she looks great. That just makes it harder. She isn't rubbing at all today as it's windy here but her mane is sore as it's a no go area. I tried to get some cream on but she wasn't keen.

I just find it so hard as she's looking so much better than when I for her. Could there be a home out there specially for her? With a breezy field?
 
cblover said:
I've just been to see her now, she looks great. That just makes it harder. She isn't rubbing at all today as it's windy here but her mane is sore as it's a no go area. I tried to get some cream on but she wasn't keen.

I just find it so hard as she's looking so much better than when I for her. Could there be a home out there specially for her? With a breezy field?
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Oh bless you x
 
cblover said:
She's not backed so not in work. Her stifle doesn't lock out behind her but sticks if she walks backwards or has been at rest then tries to walk off. She's never been worked and with being lean, the vet says it's probably because of that. The biggest problem with her is trying to pick her hind legs up, the leg sticks then unlocks, she panics then kicks out. I think in the past this has lead to some rough handling bless her. Her feet were a mess when I got her, so each time she has had to be sedated. I'm not making progress with her feet and don't want to sedate her each time she needs them trimmed.

She also needed a lot of dental work done and again needed to be sedated.
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Thanks for the answer. For me, I think having read this that I side with those that have said PTS. It would not be right, ever, to breed from her and risk passing on either the stifle or the SI problem. I do understand very much though what a difficult decision you have to make and wish you all the very best whether you go for PTS or decide to carry tackling all of her problems.
 
If you were to find that perfect field and retire her will the foot care issue become more problematic as she will get less handling?
 
Possibly ester. I'd be looking for someone to take her on really but it might be unfair to ask anyone to do that. I'm just trying to explore all avenues.
 
I think you have to deal with each thing in isolation, work out what is possible and combine them to make a decision.
I don't know anything about locking stifles as I've had no experience of dealing with them.
Sweet Itch is an allergic reaction to the midge saliva as I'm sure you know. Severity of the reaction is to do with exposure and some horses obviously suffer more than others but it is controllable. I have a mare who arrived with fairly severe sweet itch, she would rub herself bloody when I got her. She is rugged on all but the windiest of days, has fight back supplement and we use Net-tex fly spray. If you prevent the bites initially any rubbing is kept to a minimum and I've found it improves year on year.
With perseverance the handling issues will get better. You mention she was unwilling to let you put cream on as well and she has been mishandled in the past, perhaps getting some help from someone like Jason Webb or Richard Maxwell would help you work through this.
I think it extremely unlikely you will find a retirement home where someone is capable and willing to give her the time and care she needs for the rest of her life unless you are prepared to foot the bill of a livery package.
Personally I would have no problem with PTS under this situation if you feel it is the right thing to do. The Vet obviously feels it's a legitimate avenue as they suggested it. Remember that the horse is not self aware, it has no concept of the prospect of the end of it's life. They just react and experience the present. If the present is crappy and has no prospect of getting better a long life is not a positive thing. To me it sounds like you are not quite there yet though, you have to be satisfied you pursued every possible option first just for your own piece of mind.
 
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Behavioural issues can always be fixed so my first port of call would be someone to help you with the feet because your approach is obviously reaching its limits. I'd encourage you to actually try using food rewards for that and get a friend to help. You'd be surprised the way a reluctant horse will change its behaviour - even when in pain - for a treat. The thing to do is to reward for even the smallest amount of progress and do so immediately. And gradually ask for more. I promise you it will work if you keep at it. All too many people lose patience too early. Sedation for the teeth might not be optional (much harder to fix that though also doable with a lot of time/patience) but that's a fairly minor inconvenience I think...

Then you need to think about her other problems. SI for me is not a reason to put a horse down. It's a horrible, horrible condition but lots of insect repellants and topical creams to reduce itching will eventually work. The tricky part is the initial healing - then it's all prevention, prevention, prevention. The stifle condition might be a good reason to PTS if it causes her regular pain but if there's anything about her lifestyle that would improve that situation, that's what I would look to first. It sounds like your vet said putting on some weight might help?

It may be that you end up having to put her down and she's obviously not fulfilling the specific purpose you bought her for. But if you have grown fond of this horse, in my opinion you should do the best you can to solve her problems before you give up. If you just don't want her and the costs of keeping her right now (in terms of time just as much as anything), I think putting her down is fair enough as you are unlikely to find another home in her current condition and it's definitely not fair to keep her if you don't intend to invest in her further. Ultimately it's up to you to be honest with yourself and make the decision. The horse isn't going to know and won't think any less of you either way so it's not something to feel guilty about.
 
With ref. to the SI. My dales has severe SI and 2 summers ago I contemplated PTS as it was so bad. Everything was covered including his head legs...belly and sheath. Last year I was lucky enough to buy a property with some land on a hill and he is so much better. There are no hedges and only a few trees bordering one side and nearly always a breeze. I have found tritec fly spray good for the exposed bits and he is still covered most days but on the odd when its really windy he can have a naked day :) . I can't help with the other problems but hope you find a solution.
 
Thank you, I am trying to think about how best to deal with each issue and what it realistically it means for both her and me. I would feel like a total failure if I didn't explore every avenue for her. My vet is coming tomorrow and I will discuss it further with him.

I just keep going through it all in my mind and I can't settle on one best thing for her.
 
Poor you - rotten decision to make.

Just so you're aware - a breezy field isnt a cure-all. My field is very exposed and windy. There's always a fair breeze, even on days where there is no breeze anywhere else. We have a pony with SI, and although she is a LOT better in my field, she is still high maintenance. She has to be rugged, sprayed, creamed, etc - she's just a little less itchy than she gets elsewhere.
 
cblover said:
Thank you both for being level headed and calm. I need calm and lots of it!

I just can't bring myself to play god with her life span. Who am I to dictate and shorten her life? That's what I struggle with.
Click to expand...

I've just had my three year old collie put to sleep due to HD and arthritis in his spine. Tablets weren't working and he was getting worse, starting to growl and puck fights with the other dogs if they came near him.

It wasn't fair to him, us or the others so I called time. His quality of life was going, it would be fir selfish reasons to Keep him going.

Xx
 
The SI wouldn't be a problem for me as where I live there are rarely midges. The stifles sound worse than that but perhaps improve with work? If you aren't ready to call it a day why not back her and see if they do improve and if so someone might take her on permanent loan, perhaps. If she's never going to make a riding horse, she can't be bred from then I'm afraid the answer would be clear. Too big for a pet isn't she.
 
Now we know about the sweet itch, I wouldn't risk breeding from her. I suppose she could be backed and it may strengthen her stifle but what is rooted in her head is the associated pain and rough handling in the past. That's what I can't seem to get her to improve on. I'm super positive with my voice and reward every little try but her feet are growing faster than any progress, so she'll need sedated again soon for her feet done again. I just think it's sad.
 
cblover said:
Now we know about the sweet itch, I wouldn't risk breeding from her. I suppose she could be backed and it may strengthen her stifle but what is rooted in her head is the associated pain and rough handling in the past. That's what I can't seem to get her to improve on. I'm super positive with my voice and reward every little try but her feet are growing faster than any progress, so she'll need sedated again soon for her feet done again. I just think it's sad.
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If she was in work she could self trim. Just a thought.
 
You are right it is sad but she has had the best time possible under the circumstances with you.

I love Clydesdales and kept one until, according to the vet, she was almost 40. I 'replaced' her with another lovely mare but lost her to illness, most probably a tumour of the digestive system - we didn't do a PM -, aged 11. I also lost a show-bred Shire mare to a completely unrelated illness, aged 6. I decided at that point not to have another Heavy Horse, as it seems that because the gene pool is very small nowadays they are not as robust as my first mare.
I also have had a SI pony and would not want to have to deal with another. I am another who would support your decision if it was to pts based on a judgement about her quality of life. But I fully understand why you might hope to find an alternative for her. Good luck!
 
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