Hay soaking for lamnitus help please im so confused !!!!

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juevans

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Hi my riding pony mare as been on box rest for 3 and half weeks now she is being fed 1 1/2 % of her weight to acheive weight loss but she doesnt seem to be loosing anything her neck which is cresty is not quite as hard but thats about it. I have scoured the internet with regards to soaking hay, as the hay that she is being fed is very straw like and supplier says its low quality, so im not soaking it at moment just weighing it . I am now thinking if I soak it for 12 hours to take out all the nutrients can she be fed more as Im wondering now if she as been cut back too far and thats why theres no weight loss (rather like us if we dont eat enough on a diet we dont loose weight as metabolic rate drops ) I am feeding her the correct amount of blue chip lammi feed balancer so she will still get all required vits minerals etc any advice gratefully Thanks
 
It's a nightmare for you, but if I were you I would definitely soak the hay for 12 hours in order to get all the sugar out of it. Then. you can pack it into small hole haynets (or one haynet inside another) and keep her busy eating it. There won't be many calories there but at least she will think there are!

Even if your hay is late cut and straw-like, there will still be calories there unless you soak them away.

Also, perhaps you should forget the feed balancer. Maybe just give her a cup full of Dengie Hi Fi Lite with a scoop of Vits (Equivite or similar) and see how she goes.

Really, though, if I were you I would speak to my vet. They are the best people to advise you.
 
I have been soaking it 12 hrs all of it over night, but what I have found is her tea time hay and night time hay has been wet since the night before and going smelly.

What I am doing now is putting two sections in to soak at 5pm and taking them out and rinsing them at 7am feeding these at 8am and second at 1pm .

When I take them out of soaking at 7.30 I then put two more in to soak for 5pm and 10 pm. So its not sitting around all day wet going off.

I rinse mine right through My mare is coming up to 11 months box rest. View the link in my sig and you will see what I use to soak and under L will be all about Laminitis

I don't use a haynet I just use a bath.
 
Soaking will make a big difference, even poor hay will have sugars in it that need reducing, soak for 12-16 hours for maximum benefit and then you can probably increase the quantity more safely.

Bangor university did some tests and found that 16 hours was the optimum time for soaking in order to reduce the sugar, this is what I do with my pony and he is now a bit too thin and I am gradually increasing the amount.
 
Thanks for replys so far, unfortunatley my vets are closed now untill wednesday apart from emergencys of course, looks like soaking is the way to go then I guess, which is fine as I dont want to cut her hay back anymore and cause any further problems.
 
Re: soaking, I know people who insist on using the same filthy water to soak hay time and time again. No, No NO!!!! I keep telling them that it is the same as getting their poor horse to eat hay that has been soaked down in the sewer, but they won't have it.

At least, even if you are a normal reasonable person and you have soaked your hay for 12-16 hours, it will have been rinsed in clean water before being offered to your horse. It beats me how people expect a horse to eat hay which has been soaked in the same water for 12-16 hours plus another 12-16 hours, perhaps even another weeks worth of soaking in soup-like effluent and how they then don't feel guilty when the poor horses:

a: refuse to eat it
b: die of poisoning

Rant over!
 
Dont worry Rueysmum I was told years ago that the water from soaked hay is toxic so I will soak then rinse before feeding :)
 
I find with my gang of Dales ponies, if they are not working at all then a diet of 1.5% body weight dry matter is pretty much their maintenance ration (ie they neither lose nor gain weight on that ration).

If they are in light work (ie ridden for an hour or so most days, but with very little canter or gallop work), then I find I may be able to go up to 1.7% BWDM and have them maintain weight.

If I want them to lose weight, I have to either reduce intake further (but keeping it above the 1% minimum that is mentioned by people like Cathy McGowan as being the minimum that it is safe to feed to a horse and yet still achieve weight loss, or I have to up the excercise (which obviously isn't possible in the early days of laminitis).

The less I feed, the more small portions I try to feed it as, so that my ponies aren't guzzling half a day's rations at a time and then standing for many hours with nothing. That may or may not be practicable for you, depending on whether you or someone else is around enough of the time to just chuck in another half kilo or so of a weighed total ration.

There was a really interesting paper on the effects of soaking hay, and like most things, it isn't black and white. It's a bit like either washing clothes are making a pot of tea! ....... The more water you use, the more the sugar (dirt, tea) will be diluted; the hotter water you use, the more sugar (dirt, tea) will come out of the hay; the more you agitate the water/hay, the more will come out; the longer you leave the hay in, the more will come out. And obviously if you rinse as well, you'll end up with "cleaner" hay/clothes too!

I can't remember the reference for that paper though, sorry. But it all made sense. Even if it only makes a small difference to total calories for your pony, then it may be worth doing.

Another option might be to discuss possible use of metformin short-term for your pony. I haven't used this, and don't fully understand it, but I think it's something which is used to help bring the weight down a little when exercise isn't an option. In the longer term, you'd aim to stop using metformin and use exercise to keep the weight down. It's used with some very fat EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) horses/ponies. Like I say, I don't really know any more about it than that, but might be worth discussing with the vet as an option.

Best wishes

Sarah
 
May I say that you must soak all hay. There is no way of knowing the sugar and starch content without testing. Sugars and starches do not degrade so old hay is only a guarantee of lower vitamins.

Reducing the total content by leeching out soluble sugar can be vital.

ps. Ask the vet for blood tests for Cushings and insulin resistance.
 
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Does the pony currently have Lami and under treatment or is it preventative.

If its being treated you can ring your vets, even if they are shut they will talk to you on a Saturday morning. If they wont then change vets quickly.

The nicest soaked hay I have had was when I had my own place years ago. I had a trough which was fed by a steam, so running water all the time. Only time I haven't actually felt guilty feeding soaked hay.
 
This is one of the studies on effect of soaking hay:

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/07/047.shtml

I have a feeling it was a different one that I was remembering, but I can't find it at the moment. But this one pretty much says the same thing.

Soaking can reduce sugars, depending on how it's done, but it's worth being aware that it may not reduce them by very much. And a hay analysis is going to be most beneficial so you at least know what the starting point is, and how actively to try to reduce the sugars (eg by rinsing several times).

Sarah
 
With hay soaking I always see people reusing water and it drives me nuts because it will do nothing eventually !

Hay soaking works on a basic principle of diffusion, there is a high concentration of sugars in the hay and no sugar concentration in the water. When the hay is placed in the water sugars move out of the hay in to the water down a 'concentration gradient', until the concentration inside the hay and in the water is equal; therefore when you pour out the orangey sugary water, that is the same level of sugar still in side the hay. To further lower this you will need to use a FRESH supply of water so the sugars can move out again down a concentration gradient, when the concentration of sugar in the water and hay is equal there is no concentration gradient for this to happen.

Clearly nutrients will also move out, when I have managed fatties or lamis on box rest, I double soak the hay- 12 hours in one set of water, then 12 hours in another set of water including a rinse after; the fibre content will not change as it is insoluble so the hay will still provide a good source of fibre to move through the gut without the calories or sugar content. To top up nutrients I added low sugar licks and a balancer feed.

You can think of it in a similar way of adding concentrated squash to pure water, it diffuses out to make a dilute solution- but adding concentrate to concentrate will do nothing! Just like adding sugary hay to sugary water.
 
Yes, there is no point in reusing water, it must be fresh each time. :confused:

Many people have small deliveries of hay so cannot possibly have it tested, please I urge everyone do not take a risk of guessing or thinking it wont do any good anyway with a laminitic. I have had to soak twice in two changes of water before now with the odd batch for my pony. It's not ideal but until we have some sort of standard on hay there is no choice. This is life and death stuff not an inconvenience.
 
My pony came back off loan one summer with lammi. I fed half straw soaked as well as soaking the hay. Her normal diet over the winter is 50/50 hay straw and in the summer if there is little grass they all have straw to pick at.
I know all hay should be tested but unless you know the coarse grass is from meadow /marsh hay I would go for meadow hay from old pasture flood meadows where its not fertilised. A lot of coarse grass is coarse because its seeded rye grass.
It does take ages for it to come off and I would give her a bib clip when her winter coat starts to come through and not rug. It took me 6 months to get my mares weight back to normal by feeding straw and turning out unrugged. It really is a case of being cruel to be kind.
Be careful where you put your dirty water from the hay as it could be classed as pollution.
 
I can understand people trying to re-use water, it does make some sort of environmental sense.
What I do is keep my water trugs really clean and when she goes out, use the water to soak the hay in :) it's the best i can do. That water will then be chucked out and refilled for the next day but no reason why it isn't clean enough for one soaking :)

And I always soak for 12-16hours. It's done wonders for my mare's weight and to keep lami at bay.
 
Sounds like your pony is insulin resistant to me.

Soaking hay is a crude but effective way of reducing the sugar, I change the water at least once in a 12 hr soak and rince it before feeding.

I feed ad lib hay as I don't want colic or ulcers as well as anything else.

Box rest doesn't really help and I tend to pad and boot lame horses as exercise stimulates the hoof and helps recovery
 
I was soaking my mares hay 12 hrs but in this heat she stopped eating the hay . I feed her 3lbs or 4lbs 8am-1pm-6pm-10pm total 12 lbs a day. Her laminitis is easing now but still can't / wont up her hay till vet says its ok.
The minimum soaking time is 3 hrs but only if horse wont eat it if soaked for longer. She has been boxed 11 months nearly but she has definably had less flares ups since hay soaked longer.
 
Hi thanks again for replys seems the theme is to soak for 12 hours then change water I have put her first net in to soak today so thats a start.
Yes she as been diagnosed with lammi and is only 4 to be honest due to her cresty neck I keep coming back to thinking maybe she as EMS and think it may be an idea to test her for it, also due to her age she asnt been backed yet so its not like I can exercise her even when she is sound other than to lunge her (too small for me to ride ).whats everyones thoughts on barley straw being fed? we have barley straw and have considered it but worried about colic.
 
Palerider : I have same concerns as you have raised about lack of feed and ulcers stables vices etc and cant see how standing in her stable helps anyway right or wrong i turned her out for an hour today with her friends in the field with a grazing muzzle on Im not sure if she ate anything but she didnt try to get it off and I would rather she was in field not eating than in her stable alone 24/7 as Im sure that cant be good for her mentally either at her age.I will watch her like an hawk though
 
juevans said:
Palerider : I have same concerns as you have raised about lack of feed and ulcers stables vices etc and cant see how standing in her stable helps anyway right or wrong i turned her out for an hour today with her friends in the field with a grazing muzzle on Im not sure if she ate anything but she didnt try to get it off and I would rather she was in field not eating than in her stable alone 24/7 as Im sure that cant be good for her mentally either at her age.I will watch her like an hawk though
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There appears to be much confusion and widely varying opinions on how to treat laminitis who or what is the cause in particular cases, and of course the usual disagreements as to whether or not shoes, boots or whatever is the best solution for a successful outcome.

Firstly, I think that it is fairly well accepted that horses which have developed Cushings will almost inevitably go on to suffer from laminitis. Whether or not at this stage it is right to continue to persevere with a horse is difficult. My own view is that a Cushings sufferer with recurring bouts of acute laminitis is better off being put down as the pain involved for these horses, is severe and on humane grounds I feel a line has to be drawn. However, treatments and understanding are progressing and my opinion may well change as more effective treatments come to the fore, providing recoveries are swift and palliative care is effective.
Insulin Resistant horses are of course more prone to laminitis than others as their tolerance to sugars is greatly reduced, prevention for these horses is of course the best policy, but, the margins involved are narrow and appropreate exercise is paramount with theses horses. Everything can be in place and a small upset like being unable to provide the proper exercise for a day or so can leave the door open to an acute attack.
Dietary causes of laminitis give rise to the most numerous incidences of the disease in the UK. Early intervention is of course the best action, but this can be difficult especially in shod horses where the initial footiness, a major clue, may be missed as the horse has less feeling in the feet.
Generally, when an acute attack happens, my own actions are as follows, which are in the belief that laminitis is an attack on the horses metabolism and what occurs in the feet are a symptom of the disease.
The horse is put into a stable where 6" of 10mm pea gravel is the only bedding available. This provides the support at the appropreate angles for the horse's feet when it is stood and a comfortable bed if it goes off its feet. The only food available is well soaked hay. As far as NSAID drugs go I see no problem with this in the initial acute stages of the disease, but feel that prolonged administration can cause too many harmful side effects and in any event inhibit regeneration within the hoof and therefore actually prolong the recovery process. The horse will normally purge its system within a few days, and be spending more time on its feet. Laminar necrosis may well have occured to a greater or lesser degree resulting in rotation or displacement.
I see no value in glueing or fixing pads to the sole of the foot, though padded boots are used when off the pea gravel. Abscessing always follows during the recovery period where necrotic tissue has to be expelled from the hoof capsule and anything which inhibits this like shoes will delay or severely impeed rejuvination of the hoof and prolong recovery. NSAID drugs should be used only sparingly as rejuvination of the lamina cannot properly occur when they are present, and without this rotation reversal will be limited in the extreme. When the horse can stand comfortably on the pea gravel for longer periods without attempting to relieve pain in the feet it should be encouraged to move about in boots and pads for short periods as this stimulates the hoof growth. We normally leave the stable doors open with access to a yarded area where the horse can move about in boots and pads. Within a month to six weeks we would expect the abscessing to have completed and the horse returned to near normal.
Complete reversal will have taken place within the second hoof growth cycle. We have followed this proceedure on several occasions with a positive outcome. On a number of horses we have started from a very poor base when horses have been undergoing other treatment for several weeks with no improvement and euthanasia is being considered. Whilst veterinary input with this proceedure is minimal, our vet has maintained an overview. No farrier has ever been involved though a trimmer is needed to maintain the hoof at least weekly when the hoof growth can be vigorous. Over the past 4 yrs 7 horses have been through this system, there have been no negative outcomes and X-rays have shown that even the most severe rotation has reversed completely. The system is based primarily on barefoot recovery work predominantly in the United States.
 
Interesting ! My pony was given laminitis by the vey who overdosed him with Dexamthasone when he had his wolf teeth out. New vet (well we had to change didn't we!!) wants him kept on no grazing even though its eighteen months later. The farrier tells me his feet are fine - and barefoot he is sound on stones. He is now being ridden (including jumping) but he is depserate to go out - but the vet says no. We do have a small bare paddock and I am so tempted. He must be sick of soaked hay by now!!
 
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