He won't keep his shoes on XC!!

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Liz_R

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My WBxTB has terrible feet and so through summer when we're eventing he has to have pads and silicone under his front shoes. This keeps him sound and does the job as long as we can keep the shoes on! If we finish the XC with 4 shoes on its a small miracle, after pulling both front shoes off at the weekend I feel we need to do something!
Taking the pads off is not an option. I wondered if anyone could recommend any good overreach boots?? I have had a look at the Acavallo rubber ones and these seem a good idea but I have never tried them.
Any help is gratefully received!
 
I would seriously consider looking at his diet to try and improve his feet. I would imagine you are fighting a losing battle at the moment as each lost shoe is damaging his hoof.
 
We've had him a fair few years and tried every supplement/feed there is :( After looking into his breeding almost all offspring from the same sire are prone to terrible feet, it's more of genetic fault than a nutritional one.
 
Hi Liz,

Overreach boots might cure the symptoms (shoes being pulled off), but why don't you look for the cause (why are the hind feet striking into the front feet) and see if you can fix that too?
There is a wealth of information about feet and shoeing on these forums (particularly Veterinary and Hoof Care) for you to use to learn about foot structure and function. Perhaps your horse's feet are too long in the toe, so that the front feet cannot lift off the floor quickly enough (called "breakover") to get out of the way of the hindfeet, or maybe the hind toes are too long, which makes a horse prone to "forge" (where the toe of the hind shoe strikes the shoe of the front foot, making a metallic click) and also to cause overreach injuries?
I used a farrier for 15 years who did not charge for replacing a lost shoe and my TBx horse only lost a couple of shoes in all that time! This is my farrier's website, which has an interesting article about hoof mapping and several other links to useful stuff too.
http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/hoof-mapping-and-trimming.html
I hope it doesn't sound as if I am ignoring your original question, but you might be able to eliminate the cause of the problem permanently by helping your horse's feet. A win-win situation for you and the horse!
Good luck
 
You ride him with shoes and pads 'this keeps him sound' no, it masks his lameness, if he isnt sound without shoes then you are riding a lame horse.

As WP says each lost shoe is causing further damage, this can only weaken the already unhealthy hoof further. Continuing on as you have is simply not going to improve matters, things will continue to deteriorate.

My course of action would be to do the following:
1)Take shoes off, use boots and pads while he adjusts.
2)Look at his diet, run it by the folks in the barefoot forum, shoes or no shoes a horse should for many reasons be fed a good barefoot diet. It promotes a healthy hoof, is as natural as possible for the horse and lowers the risk of ulcers.
3) You may well decide to go BF permanenetly, this is totally doable xc or no xc, if you feel thats what you want to do but you want more grip for xc use boots for this.
4) You may want to go back to shoes, in this case consider a significant holiday period every year when you take shoes off and give your horses hooves chance to 'right the wrongs done from the shoes' giving time to harden the sole, nail holes grow down and so on.

In years gone by it was common practice to adopt the last method with horses, even then owners fully recognised the fact that the hoof needed 'time off'

with the current approach it seems to me that you are (not deliberately) systematically damaging the hoof you are so desperately trying to preserve. Some drastic changes seem to be needed.

Post this in the Veterinary and Hoofcare forum, there are some incredibly knowledgable people in there
 
Garnet thank you very much for that info and the website certainly makes interesting reading!
Queenbee this does not mask his lameness it simply stops his sole bruising so easily. Through winter when the ground is softer he continues working without the pads and silicone with no lameness at all. The pads are a preventative NOT a cure as I am well aware, I did not take the decision to put pads on likely but we have done this for 3 seasons now and it has saved a huge amount in vets bills as well as time off due to corns and bruising of the sole. I take your comments on board but due to the conformation as well as other factors related to the horse barefoot is just not an option. Also hoof boots are not allowed under BE rules so this would not be a viable option.
Thank you for your comments though and I will look into a barefoot diet to see if this would help strengthen and help his feet!
 
Hi- jumping in on this thread as slightly similar problem a Liz. I have a little wb x tb mare on full loan who's owner wants her shod in the summer. She only has fronts on but regularly pulls them off. Last yr I remember the mare regularly pulling shoes whilst with owner and wonder whether this is a farrier issue or horse issue. I am not happy about it and don't want to keep having a horse shoeless and out of work until farrier comes back out, so have been considering the boa boots or similar.

The mare has pretty good feet (and if down to me wouldn't have shoes on). It does get dry and stoney in the summer and shoes do help a bit (with stones) but I feel she copes perfectly without them, certainly turned out she is fine. Hence why I am thinking of these boa boots as an alternative to expensive and time consuming shoes!

Does anybody have any experience using these sort of boots, particularly schooling and jumping. All the info I seem to find online is about hacking :( I see Liz states they are not allowed in BE....any further info would be great!

Thanks
 
ThoroughbredStar Personally i feel that if the horse manages perfectly well without shoes you may save yourself a lot of time, money and hassle by going barefoot! The only reason I do not do so is the horse would simply not cope without and bruise straight away. I have another little 6 year old who I event regularly and is coming up through the levels nicely currently competing at BE novice. He has never had back shoes on in his life and only has front shoes on through the summer so we can stud up. He hunted last season with no shoes on and never went lame once! (Only wish the other horse was as sure footed!) This may be an option for yourself.
OrangePepper thank you for the tip, we have already tried Formula4Feet a long with other feeds and feel it is more a case of conformation than nutrition.
Has anyone tried the naturalbalance shoes? I have read these tend to be pulled off easily so would maybe make the problem worse?
 
Have you got pictures of his feet?

Sorry but QB is correct that if you are needing pads then the feet arent up to the workload you are demanding - so then comes the question is the horses welfare or your goals more important? Rather brutal but unluckily for you its the boat you are in.

What is the conformation that is preventing him going barefoot? Im fairly sure he didnt pop out of the womb with steel shoes nailed on so he was intended to be bf before us humans interfered thinking we knew better.
Who has told you he can't go barefoot? A vet or farrier? Did they have any specialist barefoot training?

Clearly there is a fundamental problem with this horses feet which needs fixing. Can you have your forage analysed? This has been the answer for mine as generic balancers didnt have anywhere near the amounts of minerals that are deficient in my pasture.
 
Liz_R said:
Garnet thank you very much for that info and the website certainly makes interesting reading!
Queenbee this does not mask his lameness it simply stops his sole bruising so easily. Through winter when the ground is softer he continues working without the pads and silicone with no lameness at all. The pads are a preventative NOT a cure as I am well aware, I did not take the decision to put pads on likely but we have done this for 3 seasons now and it has saved a huge amount in vets bills as well as time off due to corns and bruising of the sole. I take your comments on board but due to the conformation as well as other factors related to the horse barefoot is just not an option. Also hoof boots are not allowed under BE rules so this would not be a viable option.
Thank you for your comments though and I will look into a barefoot diet to see if this would help strengthen and help his feet!
Click to expand...


In general I would say that if your horse gets easily bruised when the shoes come off this is a combined effect of shoes and diet, the sole/frog/heel simply can not harden when it is not coming into contact with the ground. As another poster said on another thread, when fixing issues of the hoof you need to think of it as a marathon not a sprint (I think that's how they put it).

You can not expect that a horse will have shoes off and be sound the next day, some will especially if their diet has been addressed already but for many they do need transition time, time in hoof boots (not just for competing), gentle walking in hand to stimulate the changes in the hoof.

Conformation wise, it is a rare thing that conformation actually means that a horse can not go barefoot, it is my experience and observation that poor conformation issues are actually made less of an issue by the practice of taking a horse barefoot. The horses hoof naturally balances and compensates for these issues (something which it is simply unable to do when strapped to a horseshoe). Infact not just confo issues but many conditions see an amazing improvement by going BF.

My horse is barefoot, as was my mare before that, I hunted, did xc, show jumping, dressage, and hacking etc with no ill effect, infact I reaped the benefits from all directions as did my mare and my boy is fantastic.

Going barefoot would take a compromise on your part, you would need to stand down from competition for a while, and again I stress that you wouldn't need to be barefoot all the time, in your circumstances you could shoe during competition season and take the shoes off after to allow them to strengthen. But continuing as you are is quite simply not an option, as I know you will recognise the repetition of replacing shoes at such a frequency is not sustainable or healthy for your horse.

Taking shoes off an unsound horse (and if he gets foot sore easily he is unsound) is not a pretty thing, it would interrupt your plans that sucks but personally, nothing comes before my horses well being and health. It's hard to watch them feeling the stones, but if you dig in and wholeheartedly commit to the change (whether temporarily or permanently) it is worth it.

In your position my plan would be, change to a fibre only diet with a good hoof supplement, stop competing so you minimise the risk of throwing shoes. I would also administer a topical treatment of hoof hardener (not to the liking of some) to the sole (not heel bulb or frog) and the lower outer wall. Allowing a couple of weeks for the changes to set in I would then remove the shoes and put my horse in boots and pads, walking in hand every day to stimulate changes and any ridden work would be done in boots if my horse was sound in them. I'd consider changing my farrier to a reputable trimmer unless I was entirely confident that the farrier was able to trim my horse to his benefit (the horses, not the farriers :p). I'd probably continue with this regime (stopping the use of hoof hardener and boots as the sole began to harden and the hoof became better able to deal with the change). In your case I would then consider (depending on the level of progress) bringing my horse back into competition at the beginning of next season at which point I would expect that the hoof and sole would have hardened substantially and be better able to retain shoes, at the end of the season I would take the shoes off for a rest, and if sticking to a barefoot diet I would hope that the following year the horse would be better able to deal with the transition.

I don't buy that conformationally there is a true issue that will prevent your horse from benefiting from going barefoot, this is very rare, your horse is soft soled/sensitive as a direct result of his current lifestyle and the only way to truly correct this is to throw your priorities aside and focus on your horses priorities and welfare.

Horses with tb in them are quite fine to go bf, both of mine (my boy and my old girl were tb x) my friend runs a racehorse rescue centre and every horse that comes in has its shoes whipped off, it's diet addressed and a decent trimmer, these horse improve 100 fold as a result. As TT says, your horse was not born with shoes.
 
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Liz_R said:
Has anyone tried the naturalbalance shoes? I have read these tend to be pulled off easily so would maybe make the problem worse?
Click to expand...

My horse had Natural Balance shoes for the 15 years mentioned above - they are the only shoes my farrier uses. He doesn't charge for replacing a cast shoe - that's how confident he is that he won't be replacing many!

Natural Balance shoes (placed correctly on the horses feet as per the hoof mapping article) give the horse a "breakover" point (where the tip of the toe leaves the ground) exactly where nature intends. The front feet can therefore lift off the ground promptly, before the hind feet strike into them. Natural Balance shoes are set slightly back under the wall of the toe, so this has the effect of shortening the hind toes so they don't "catch up" with the front feet so quickly. Sorry for the bad explanation - see this article for a better one - I love the analogy of trying to run in flippers!
http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/never-too-old-to-learn-about-natural-balance.html
 
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My experiance with natural balance shoes is that the horses that do well in them pull them off less than normal shoes one of ours is doing very well in them and he had very difficult feet he had a period BF ( with work not turned away )and then into natural balance and has not looked back .
If the horses is continually pulls off shoes and damages the foot you will eventually need to remove the shoes and let the damage grow out as it becomes an impossible job to balance and shoe the foot well when you have no horn left to nail to.
I get my horses out of shoes at least four months a year .
 
It is a sad fact that the horses who 'cannot cope without shoes' are the very same ones who have the most shoe sick hooves and would benefit the most from having a proper BF rehab.

I would be very interested to see photos of your horse's hooves if you are willing to post them.

I suspect you didn't try the hoof supplements for long enough. The supplement will only effect the new hoof growth. It takes about 9 months to grow out a new hoof capsule. I'm glad that you will look into 'the barefoot diet' - it really should be renamed 'the healthy horse diet' because it is sensible for all equines regardless of whether or not they are shod.
 
I have had a full TB gifted back to me after 2 yrs, when he left, his feet weren't brilliant but shoeable, since he is now in regular work, my farrier came to shoe him, having lost 2 shoes and nearly had a heart attack when he saw TB's feet, he managed to fit a set, but said they are unlikely to stay on, agreeing that it would be best for TB to go barefoot, TB now on a healthy diet, as are the rest of my horses and he will be worked in boots, for the moment I am using a hoof dressing on his soles and hoof walls, hoping it will help
 
ThoroughbredStar said:
The mare has pretty good feet (and if down to me wouldn't have shoes on). It does get dry and stoney in the summer and shoes do help a bit (with stones) but I feel she copes perfectly without them, certainly turned out she is fine. Hence why I am thinking of these boa boots as an alternative to expensive and time consuming shoes!

Does anybody have any experience using these sort of boots, particularly schooling and jumping. All the info I seem to find online is about hacking :( I see Liz states they are not allowed in BE....any further info would be great!

Thanks
Click to expand...

I've used Easyboots and Renegades for Endurance and schooling purposes. Easyboot Gloves, Easyboot glue-ons, and Renegades currently seem to be the favourites among the Endurance crowd (the most prolific boot-users out there at the moment). I'm seeing more and more Renegades out there every month: they're among the more expensive, but are very easy to put on, and have a reputation for staying put and for being a bit more forgiving of fit than some other kinds. Others rate the Equine Fusion and the Old Macs. I think I heard that Boa has been discontinued?

Several models of boots currently allow for studs.

As to safety while jumping, I'd be happy to jump in Renegades, because they fit my pony well. There are other safety-related concerns that keep me from jumping my pony, however! ;)

Eventually, organisations such as BE will become convinced enough of the improvements to boot design to change their tune. But I suspect that's a while away! I believe you can get an exemption to use them under BD, but only for a limited time period. I may be wrong about this, as I can't really see why you'd need to use boots in a school or on grass.
 
Garnet said:
My horse had Natural Balance shoes for the 15 years mentioned above - they are the only shoes my farrier uses. He doesn't charge for replacing a cast shoe - that's how confident he is that he won't be replacing many!

Natural Balance shoes (placed correctly on the horses feet as per the hoof mapping article) give the horse a "breakover" point (where the tip of the toe leaves the ground) exactly where nature intends. The front feet can therefore lift off the ground promptly, before the hind feet strike into them. Natural Balance shoes are set slightly back under the wall of the toe, so this has the effect of shortening the hind toes so they don't "catch up" with the front feet so quickly. Sorry for the bad explanation - see this article for a better one - I love the analogy of trying to run in flippers!
http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/never-too-old-to-learn-about-natural-balance.html
Click to expand...

Thanks! Didn't see this article when I first visited the website :) I'm thinking this might be the way forward, spent many an hour last night looking into natural balance shoes.

My next question will be posted in a different forum to where I can find a good natural balance farrier!
 
Actually answering the question asked...

Have you tried taping his feet with strong duct tape or similar when you go xc?
Can really help with horses who pull shoes off.

Or I have some neoprene overreach boots which fit very closely, much better than the rubber ones which I tend to find too loose and they flap around and risk the horse standing on them.
 
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