Head and neck carriage - which is better?

[Paint Me Proud]

Having just seen some photos of some american ridden classes it got me wondering about head and neck carriage.

In the UK we seem to strive for up and round with the head sitting nicely on the vertical

however the USA seem to prefer the long and low style

So I was just wondering which is actually anatomically/physically more comfortable and easy to maintain for the horse?

I'm not advocating or critisising either method just interested purely in the anatomical and physical effect it has on the horse.

 

[saddlesore]

Long and low is much more natural for the horse. It's also how they hold themselves when they are relaxed. That's why so many years of training go into top dressage horses- it's unnatural! Although more and more WBs are being bred into that shape of course.

 

[Ranyhyn]

Wouldn't the most comfortable position for the head be variable, based on the conformation of the horse?

 

[magicmoose]

As well as varying with conformation, it will vary with gait. At a free walk, the most natural position will be long and low, with the majority of the horse's weight carried on the front legs. In a collected canter, more of the horse's weight comes back onto the hind quarters and a higher head carriage becomes more natural.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

hmmm interesting, thanks

 

[Pigeon]

The second picture would be for English Equitation, which was actually originally for stock horses, who were probably more often ridden western style, and bred to be quite downhill with daisycutter paces that are comfortable to ride all day on the ranch. It's basically English tack on a western horse!

Here is a video of English Eq:

[video=youtube;c1H8c8O0rbo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1H8c8O0rbo[/video]

And a video of Western Pleasure:

[video=youtube;_yP1egescmw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP1egescmw[/video]

You can see the resemblance!

It bleeds through to other classes of course - the preferred way of going in American 'Hunter' classes is more strung out and slower than you would see here, though not quite so extreme as English Eq.

[video=youtube;8Iju82QRObQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iju82QRObQ[/video]

I'm going to have to continue this in another post because I've reached max number of vids lol!

 

[Pigeon]

I agree with what other posters have said - the ideal outline varies from horse to horse, and from situation to situation. For hacking out or general ranch work (which Western Pleasure is meant to replicate) a long and low outline is great, it encourages relaxation and a swinging stride, and is much more comfortable for a rider to sit to.

If you wanted to do collected energetic work, for example jump a big obstacle or make a sharp turn, you want a more upright outline with the weight on the quarters, which allows the horse to be prepared for sudden changes in direction or pace. Notice the difference in this Spanish Eq horse as opposed to the US Eq horse. Do you think the chestnut could make these turns in that outline? Equally the grey would get exhausted maintaining that level of collection for hours at a time, whereas the long and low outline doesn't expend so much energy.

[video=youtube;5895K-Xjupk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk[/video]

The other risk with long and low is that horses can fake it, disconnect the hind end and just shuffle along! The main thing when thinking about getting a horse to work 'properly' is that it lifts the back, and steps through from behind. This is the healthiest way for them to carry a rider, and builds up correct muscling. The head and neck is a secondary concern, though you will notice the general rule is head higher for collection and lower for extension (look at Spanish Riding School Lipizzan doing piaffe versus Thoroughbred Racehorse galloping) and that is just the natural way the biomechanics of a horse work, it's not something that should be forced either way. It's also interesting that breeds adept at elevation and collection are built more uphill, and breeds highly capable of speed are built more downhill.

If you look here at this warmblood:

http://horsetalk.co.nz/kazmerestud/ped/olympicferro1.jpg

As opposed to this quarterhorse:

http://www.magoteaux.com/SWRHA/images/stallions/stop/REF%20Black%20Mamba.jpg

You can imagine how different their natural way of moving is, based on conformation alone. Because TBs and QHs are still the two most popular breeds in the US, and are both notoriously downhill, it is understandable that their riding style is influenced by this.

 

[PolarSkye]

Great reply Pigeon - concise and informative .

P

 

[fattylumpkin]

The working quitation videos are superb, thankyou so so much for sharing them guys!!! I finally found a sport my nordsvensk could excel at!

 

[Debz87]

It's actually undesireable for a horses nose to be as low as it often looks in most western pleasure classes, I went to a judging seminar and we were informed that one not very good judge picked a really low headed horse to win a big class and after that everything went to pot!
So judging a pleasure class became picking the best out of a bad bunch as everybody trained their horses to go with a low head carriage and even stilted the lope (canter), lots of horses were four beating instead of three beating.
Luckily the pleasure classes are heading back to where they should be!
Overall the ideal picture would be for a horses nose to not be behind the vertical and for the poll to be level with the wither and the horse performing the gait at the correct beat.
Some classes are judged on style but most aren't so as long as the horse is soft and maintains a good rhythm it should do well even if the head is a little higher or lower, but if the head is low and the shoulders are down too much the horse won't move correctly.

 

[Hippona]

Long and low is much more natural for the horse. It's also how they hold themselves when they are relaxed. That's why so many years of training go into top dressage horses- it's unnatural! Although more and more WBs are being bred into that shape of course.

No ones told my arab that.....

 

[9tails]

The Working Equitation Speed Test was excellent viewing, I wanna do it too! The first Working Equitation video not so much, they looked like dummies.

 

[ihatework]

Oh Gawd - English equitation - I cannot get my head around that, looks like local riding school stuff to me!!!

 

[Enfys]

Oh Gawd - English equitation - I cannot get my head around that, looks like local riding school stuff to me!!!

So very much is different in North America, they find European English Equitation very peculiar too It is six of one and half a dozen of another, just because it looks different doesn't necessarily mean that it is better, or worse

When I moved to Canada I stopped riding English because I hated the way 'English' trained horses felt after 35 years of doing it the BHS way, I couldn't (and still can't) cope with the feeling of having no neck or head infront of me. Western, that's fine I don't mind the lower head carriage (but not the peanut pushers - they are often strapped down to encourage that muscle development btw)

 

[ihatework]

So very much is different in North America, they find European English Equitation very peculiar too It is six of one and half a dozen of another, just because it looks different doesn't necessarily mean that it is better, or worse

When I moved to Canada I stopped riding English because I hated the way 'English' trained horses felt after 35 years of doing it the BHS way, I couldn't (and still can't) cope with the feeling of having no neck or head infront of me. Western, that's fine I don't mind the lower head carriage (but not the peanut pushers - they are often strapped down to encourage that muscle development btw)

I wish they would call it American Equitation rather than English though!! They can toddle along not tracking up and on the forehand as much as they like then ;P

 

[ridefast]

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE HEAD AND NECK CARRIAGE!!!! A well schooled western horse and a well schooled english horse will be asked to use their bodies in pretty much the same way. It's breeding. Look at a warmblood foal, they have been bred and bred to be "up" and a wb foal will run around the field with it's head up and front legs in the air. Quarter horses have been bred to carry themselves on a horizontal so a QH foal will naturally move that way. You can train a high stepping warmblood to do western but it will always be in a higher frame than a quarter horse. You can train a quarter horse to do english but it will always appear too long and low for advanced work.

 

[Enfys]

I wish they would call it American Equitation rather than English though!! They can toddle along not tracking up and on the forehand as much as they like then ;P

I see your point but what would we call it here in Canada then? Can't see Canadians being too keen on calling it American, or vice versa

It IS English though, English saddle, English bridle ... we won't mention the fluffy half pads, the boots, the coloured breeches, no stocks or ties

 

[Orangehorse]

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE HEAD AND NECK CARRIAGE!!!! A well schooled western horse and a well schooled english horse will be asked to use their bodies in pretty much the same way. It's breeding. Look at a warmblood foal, they have been bred and bred to be "up" and a wb foal will run around the field with it's head up and front legs in the air. Quarter horses have been bred to carry themselves on a horizontal so a QH foal will naturally move that way. You can train a high stepping warmblood to do western but it will always be in a higher frame than a quarter horse. You can train a quarter horse to do english but it will always appear too long and low for advanced work.

Exactly! An arab horse has a high head carriage- so they can scan the desert for danger. They can still be trained to do western, but they will always be different to a QA. So "upheaded" includes WB, arab, saddlebred and others of that ilk, Morgan, spanish breeds. The lower headed includes QH and TB.

 

[hobo]

Wow have not watched all the videos but loved the Spanish one looked such fun. Very interesting thread well done OP.

 

[Orangehorse]

Western - I thought the head and neck should be level with the withers, not below?
Working Equitation - note that it is done in walk and canter only and reins in one hand throughout!

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Really really interesting posts. I hadnt considered different breeds would be built to carry their head in different ways, but it make perfect sense now I think about it

 

[cornbrodolly]

Cannot understand why the western style long and low [ as opposed to our young horse long and low where head carriage is natural and used for strengthening the spine before lifting head and neck a few months later ]is considered desirable. looking at USA QH photos from 1960s horses had a more normal head height - roughly eye same height as wither.I dont conside TBs to have that low a head carriage ,or they d never do national Hunt racing!
Lots of bad breeding and worse training to get the peanut rollers, and horses end up with an overloaded front and navicular in front feet.

 

[Debz87]

I agree cornbrodolly, if you see my previous comment I have picked up on these common issues but monkey see monkey do!

 

[shergar]

Please can some one type in on youtube DRESSAGE VS WESTON and put that video on here,it is the first one that comes up,I think you will all like this one,I have no idea how to do it . Many thanks.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

[youtube]rqyV9kGQpEc[/youtube]

[youtube]hJJmLG30V6c[/youtube]

 

[shergar]

Thank you Paint me proud,I think it is interesting watching them work together and changing horses.

 

[Captain Bridget]

I'm not sure I'd consider my TB in the 'low head' category! Most of the time he'll try and go with his ears up my nose. I wish he would just consider dropping it a touch! Although sometimes I'll pretend to be a cowboy out on a hack and canter him on a long rein and he will lower his head but then he'll break back to trot, so it's just not sustainable for him.

I'm lucky that I have seen a fair bit of American equitation, I've got some American friends, all competing in different disciplines. One who does Western Pleasure, which is not my cup of tea, but she puts a huge amount of time and effort into her training and not letting her horse go along with his nose on the floor. One who is a very good hunter jumper rider, the most beautiful eq you've ever seen! But her horse also goes in pure jumper classes and can change his way of going depending on how she rides. And then I have a friend who rides and trains reiners, which is amazing to watch.

And then there's the eventers and dressage riders. One girl I know used to compete at high level dressage until her horse injured himself, and then took to eventing and hunter jumper on another horse. She said she found the pacing etc of HJ very difficult to pick up!

 

[Amy567]

I just want to throw it out there that my pure TB ex racer carries his head naturally high and has a very elevated trot, naturally off his forehand.

I cannot stand that English equitation video - Champion?! Did you see how stiff it was behind in canter?! and it wasn't even tracking up in walk! Bleurgh! (apologies to any Americans here - but that is FAR from english!). I much prefer our style of english