head carriage problems!

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iloveCharlie5

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my horse has an unusually high head carriage and since he is very green and spooky i usually ride in draw reins to teach him to lower his head when asked and he goes so well in them, but if i take them off and put pressure down the reins, even just to slow down, he yanks his head straight up and fights the contact. However, even when the draw reins are really loose he is impeccably behaved. His teeth have been very recently checked along with everything else, and filed down. Any tips on why he is doing this and what i can do to help combat this? He goes in a french link eggbutt snaffle but is the same in a baucher and loose ring and i loathe to put him in anything else as he is still green and very light in the hand. thanks:)
 
This is the reason so many people are against the use of draw reins, if you are going to use them to help get through a tricky situation they need to be used properly otherwise you are going to find that once they are off the horse is exactly the same as before or even worse.

He is not learning to relax and work correctly if he is putting his head up when you take a contact, being very light in the hand is good but only once he is working correctly from behind to the contact, it is more likely that he is dropping behind when in the draw reins, then once they are off he has no idea what to do so the head goes up. When using them, if you are going to continue to do so, you must ride him from the leg up to a direct contact on the ordinary rein, ask him to soften to that, not the draw rein which should only come into play as an emergency measure, he probably needs to be stronger in the contact but without seeing how he goes it is hard to advise, I can only imagine the picture which is of a horse tucking behind the contact, looking and feeling pretty but not actually going anywhere.

A good instructor to get you going correctly would really be the best way forward, so you can get rid of the gadgets before too much harm is done, it can take a long while to get horses that have worked in draw reins to learn to go properly as their muscles are usually incorrectly developed.
 
Its a tricky one to answer without actually seeing whats going on, but I used to have a gelderlander with a very high llama like head carriage. Luckily, he was very active behind - but would tense up and 'scuttle' about with his head stuck up in the air, and his neck locked tight, and very hollow through his back. I found running rains to be very helpful, but once I learned a technique of keeping his neck soft, enabling him to work through his back properly, he lowered his head carriage himself. I would keep my hands low, either side of his wither (almost thinking of them like side reins) and move/flex his neck just to make sure his neck is always soft. When he is soft, just keep travelling forward and straight, but always soft, this way he should start to come through his back and - bingo! - every things better! Good luck.
 
My pony has a habit of turning into a giraffe. I warm up at a walk and trot then throw some good canter work in with lots of flying changes in which gets him working properly then I'll start trotting work etc. It took a few lessons to get him figured out but we're getting there together.
 
I think one of nicest things about horses is learning about what makes them tick, and how to get the best out of them - its so interesting! I certainly think a really good trainer is worth their weight in gold....
 
First off I think Be Postive's post is basically what I would say. This horse is also green so I can't see warming up with flying changes being a help.

Where to start. I am truly amazed by all the pics I now see of horse being so far behind the vertical and people thinking this is proper work. Young horses especially. Try getting onto the FB page of Science In Motion. Read the articles and really learn how a horse's neck works.

If the draw reins on this horse wers for a teaching purpose only then when off he'd be starting to use himself. However, he's not. Something is amiss. I know you've said all is checked out. I've been there. Best thing I ever did was chucking all my gadgets into a dark corner and start listening to my horses and accepting some take longer. But it's not easy when you see all around you horses in a frame accepted as correct.

You may find yourself having to go back to basics. For me I started out lunging my giraffe in a headcollar only. Not pretty and yet now a year on, completely different mare. But my goal was it takes as long as it takes. Eye opener for me and has changed how I do things. Won't take as long with one who hasn't been messed up.

Terri
 
If the horse is green, I am assuming that it is also weak. With a young or weak horse I always start off with road work....up to 12 weeks walking on the roads, preferably including hills. At this stage all I am looking for is forwardness and straightness through the body. I will introduce a bit of jog trotting, but ignore totally where the head is. All I want is a constant feel in both of my hands.

I have used draw reins at this stage for a horse that could be a danger to itself, but they were only brought into action when the killer car was approaching....or whatever the horse thought was going to terminate its existence.

If the horse gets bored, then you can introduce variety within the pace or even start to teach that a leg can mean move away as well as ago forwards etc.

Once you have these basics in place you can move on. If you can*t get these basics established then you need to investigate further what is preventing.
 
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Thank you everyone for your replies.
firstly, although he is green he is not very young, he has been ridden lots, just not seen a lot; he was broken and then used out on tracks and basic school work; his muscles are all developed and he is now proving himself as a very powerful and capable jumper. He has a muscled neck which is developed and strong, and a lovely topline; he also works very actively behind, and so just to go over the replies that ask if he is weak/underdeveloped-neither of these can be used to describe him. I have got an instructor who also professionally events and she has told me that i use the draw reins very well; he is never held behind the vertical, in fact he is always either on or infront of the vertical. She advised me to keep using the draw reins as he is very spooky and so it is a must to be always able to control his head, but i never hold it down or force him, they are always loose and simply there to encourage him to soften which he does faster when he has them on. He is very active behind with and without the draw reins and works very well off the leg too, which is why I used them in the first place as he already had the basics; he just needed some help with lowering his head as the draw reins enable me to do so without yanking and sawing on his mouth. I would rather use the draw reins softly than not use them and be constantly putting pressure on his mouth, especially as he is green and very sensitive and this just upsets him. He is able to relax and soften with the draw reins but without them he is constantly tense so, although i take all comments into consideration, i fail to see how it is a bad thing for me to use them at this stage.
Thank you for all your replies, they have been very helpful, keep them coming please:)
 
So it is correctly muscled, goes perfectly in the draw reins yet without them it goes with the head up refusing to soften at all, what happens when your instructor rides him without them? that would be something to try as often the eyes on the ground need to feel what is going on, I get on sometimes and am surprised that the horse feels nothing like it looks.
 
The fact is, if the longissimus dorsi is not engaged, the neck and back cannot be in a position to carry you as the hind legs cannot step under not can the abs work properly. Forget the draw reins and get those hind legs, back and abs working to LIFT the neck. This lifting itself will round the horse therefore the horse cannot go around like a giraffe. It would be impossible. Lots of circles, figure of 8s, turns on the fire, turns on the quarter and leg yielding as well as shoulder ins and rein backs. This horse just doesn't know how to carry a rider so it goes into flight mode... head up! And if your instructor cannot tell you these basic facts, find a new one.

Riding is nothing to do with how the horse carries its head!!!! It is how he carries you and ultimately, this is about his BACK and LEG carriage.
 
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tallyho! said:
The fact is, if the longissimus dorsi is not engaged, the neck and back cannot be in a position to carry you as the hind legs cannot step under not can the abs work properly. Forget the draw reins and get those hind legs, back and abs working to LIFT the neck. This lifting itself will round the horse therefore the horse cannot go around like a giraffe. It would be impossible. Lots of circles, figure of 8s, turns on the fire, turns on the quarter and leg yielding as well as shoulder ins and rein backs. This horse just doesn't know how to carry a rider so it goes into flight mode... head up! And if your instructor cannot tell you these basic facts, find a new one.

Riding is nothing to do with how the horse carries its head!!!! It is how he carries you and ultimately, this is about his BACK and LEG carriage.
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Totally agree with this, I see so many horses in a false outline looks pretty but the horse is not working correctly, if he cant lift his back and drop into a contact his not going forward enough and using his back end to enable him to.
 
Try lots of trotting poles to encourage the horse to look forward and down and look forwards .
Ditch the draw rien for a while and see how you go.
 
What Tallyho said in spades. I have no idea why this whole thing started with getting a head/neck position before any proper foundation.

As a side note part of my reschooling included lunging/riding trot with poles. Great exercise.

Terri
 
If you don't have poles, you can encourage the horse to step through just on the lunge by asking for a more active hind leg, not faster, but more pushing and consistent. This is really hard work for a horse, like us doing sit-ups so start with just a few steps at a time and build up. You will immediately notice that they stop hauling themselves forward and you will the hinds actively pushing the horse forward.

I have never really got the draw reins and gadgets thing either Terri. I saw a demo not long ago and one thing that stuck with me was "you need to think poll forward, not head in". If you think poll forward, then it instantly lifts the frame as you stop hauling at the reins and start encouraging with the leg.

Anyone can go around with their chin tucked in, just try it. But it isn't a good posture and pretty soon your neck and lower back will ache. Now, tuck your tailbone under, engage your abs, lift your chest and your neck and head will naturally be carried by your shoulders. As was said in another demo I recently went to which resonated with me, you want to lift the horses neck out of the shoulders. The only way to do this is to tuck his pelvis and engage his abs. The legs can then step through and the whole frame will lift and the horse will find its natural way of going in that lovely outline everyone wants but needs a hardcore pulley system to replicate.... Falsely.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
What Tallyho said in spades. I have no idea why this whole thing started with getting a head/neck position before any proper foundation.

As a side note part of my reschooling included lunging/riding trot with poles. Great exercise.

Terri
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Agree. I'm not sure but there seems to be a trend throughout riding to reach the end in a hurry. Here in the U.S., we have all these clinicians holding events where they miraculously train a mustang in a day or whatever. It infuriates me. First of all, why would you even want to?

Where the nose is has almost nothing to do with hands and reins, imo. Achieving proper head position requires proper muscling, balance, and the time to develop those things. So even if the horse is well muscled, it's how he uses those muscles and how the rider uses them that creates self-carriage. And with self-carriage comes head position. As the back comes up and the hindquarters engage, the nose drops and comes into the vertical.

I find a lot of very well respected instructors tend to load up their students' horses with gadgets. We have one at our barn whose students all go about with so much leather draped on their mounts you can barely see what color they are. I'm not a fan for the most part. They all have their place but what I see too often is someone who puts the thing on and never, ever stops using it. That is not an aid, it is a crutch.

I'd ditch the draw reins and do lots of laterals, transitions and poles.
 
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