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PurpleSpots

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A Public Service Announcement...

Poor or inappropriate trimming CAN cause a pedal bone to rotate.

Other factors are more than likely contributing too, but it is incorrect to state that pedal bone rotation cannot be caused or influenced by the trim.

Aaaargh.
 
PurpleSpots said:
A Public Service Announcement...

Poor or inappropriate trimming CAN cause a pedal bone to rotate.

Other factors are more than likely contributing too, but it is incorrect to state that pedal bone rotation cannot be caused or influenced by the trim.

Aaaargh.
Click to expand...

Yes it can, but does anyone ever think "I know my farrier is rubbish, but never mind"? Most people have their horses feet trimmed by someone they trust is doing it correctly, with veterinary input, so it's just muddying the waters by making such a big point about something that's not that common.

It's about as useful as someone saying that grass doesn't cause laminitis really!
 
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Sorry to have caused offence.

The statement I read today which prompted my post was quite extreme and has really concerned me. Yes, experienced people know better, and know what a good trim looks like, and that in any situation where there are laminitic concerns then x-rays should be the go-to, but for me it is wholly incorrect to state that trimming by a farrier cannot cause pedal bone rotation.

Sometimes even trimming at the wrong point in time can trigger more rotation, for example.

Additionally, not all farriers are equal in experience.

It's such a big subject with so many variables, and it worries me so much to see sweeping statements like the one I read today - it could have catastrophic effects for an owner and much suffering for their horse to blindly follow the advice that was given :( .
 
I don't think anyone has said that trim doesn't affect? My interpretation, from following this playing out on Facebook is that:

"Hoof trimming sect" & "surfaced track livery" have been circulating their newest iteration which is a blanket statement of "diet does not cause laminitis" those words exactly.

Various professionals have got involved, and instead of debating with them have just been sharing scientifically correct laminitis information as a push back. This has resulted in a loss of sponsorship for surfaced track and has caused hoof trimming sect to blow a fuse.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I'm saying that it is wrong to catagorically state that x will never cause y, when there is often the potential for it to do so.
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But it's OK for "them" to say that diet does not cause Y?

Their factually incorrect statement will have far reaching consequences for equines with Y who DO require their diets to be managed. Their are more equines affected by Y because of diet than trims
 
Thank you! I was wondering when someone was going to mention this. I thought it might be a banned topic because there is a closed thread in the vet section about HM.

Isn't it absolutely nuts? Why would you post something like that as a definitive when you have no clinical proof? I mean you can have a theory and float that theory out there but you don't go and say something like that without proper research.

I'm just looking at this from an academic and marketing POV. Plenty of other people will wade in about the laminitis and welfare side.

Honestly, I swear those two just thrive on being controversial. It's all ego and nothing else.
 
I've just read this which I think sums the whole thing up perfectly. I've copied and pasted as not sure if FB links are allowed:

PLEASE READ
There is a war going on.
I don't mean the ones between countries, this is different. Good and evil, sense and insanity, whatever.
The casualties... Horses and their owners, well meaning, desperate people, trying to help their horses and are being "recruited' into an obnoxious cult movement.
If you haven't seen" that post" you maybe confused. But here is what you need to know.
LAMINITIS is the inflammation and subsequent separation of the laminae of the hoof. Causes in horses include carbohydrate overload, excess weight bearing, and endotoxemia. The hallmark clinical sign is severe lameness with bounding digital pulses. P3 rotation or sinking can result from laminar separation in the most severe cases, and it is associated with a guarded to poor prognosis. Treatment includes addressing the primary systemic disease present, pain management, restricted exercise, supportive footing, corrective farriery, and sometimes debridement after the acute phase of disease has passed. (MSD veterinary manual)
It can be, and most often is caused by DIET. Too much green grass like rye, getting fed, by accident or design, too much or the wrong type of meal. It can be caused by METABOLIC CONDITIONS, which can also be made worse by DIET. Then we have CONCUSSION laminitis and SUPPORTING LIMB laminitis, caused by too much fast movement on hard surfaces and by excess weight bearing due to an injury or condition affecting another limb.
Mares can get laminitis AFTER FOALING.
TOXINS such as, but not limited to, poisonous plants and administration of corticosteroids.
And yes, it can also be MECHANICAL caused by forces working on the feet such as badly or untrimmed hooves.
To treat laminitis is important to find the trigger for your INDIVIDUAL horse. Remove the trigger, and treat the feet alongside the gut and indeed the whole horse.
I have, here at Equine halfway house seen all of the above causes of laminitis, I have treated and rehabbed many, many horses, ponies and donkeys. I work with great PROFESSIONALS who spent alot of years and alot of money to learn about horses, so they can help me help the equines in my care. TRUST in our team, our VET, FARRIER, DENTIST AND THE NUTRITIONIST I follow. They learned and continue to learn.
I have researched and learned too, so I can understand what these professionals are doing and why. I ask questions. Anyone worth your time is going to answer, not block you because they don't like the question.
If you have any questions regarding laminitis, get in touch, if I can't tell you with 100% surity, I will find out and either tell you or point you in the right direction to learn how to help your horse.

The above is factual.
On a personal note, if anyone tries to make you feel guilty or insecure when you are looking for help. Stop listening. Take yourself away from that person and seek practical advice from someone else.
 
I have no problem with them believing that hoof balance and poor foot care is the main reason for the P3 rotation in the laminitic cases they have seen. If they believe that and can back up these claims with evidence, it’s always worth it being looked into. We are all here for the good of the horse, after all. But the cause of the laminitis in those horses will have caused by other things, a big one being diet.

To state that “Diet does not cause laminitis” is completely wrong. If they are mistaking P3 rotation with what the term laminitis means, then they need to consider whether they are in the right line of work.

It is extremely worrying that they are happy to stand by that statement.

Though I would hazard a guess that if they chucked their laminitics out on rye grass for the summer, no amount of foot balancing is going to play a blind bit of difference to the eventual outcome.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I'm saying that it is wrong to catagorically state that x will never cause y, when there is often the potential for it to do so.
Click to expand...

Theres a reason people are saying this, its in repsonse to hoofing marvellous and gawsworth track livery. Its amped up again. Thankfully their sponsors are dropping like flies and pointing out why.

Ah, I see someone else has also mentioned it.
 
I'm Dun said:
I dont have an edit button now, so must have timed out. I had no idea we couldnt mention them :oops:
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it may be best then if you could contact admin and ask them to remove the names. If they chose to leave them in then it is up to them.
If you don't then it is possible they will have complaints from those people and the thread will be closed plus it will cause admin problems as it has in the past. Those people are not mentioned by name, we all know who we are talking about but no names to avoid causing trouble for admin. and getting the whole topic banned.
 
PurpleSpots said:
A Public Service Announcement...

Poor or inappropriate trimming CAN cause a pedal bone to rotate.

Other factors are more than likely contributing too, but it is incorrect to state that pedal bone rotation cannot be caused or influenced by the trim.

Aaaargh.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement, do they? A bad trim/shoeing can cause a myriad of issues, as we all know.

The danger in what a certain group spouts is that laminitis, even endocrine issues, can be resolved by a trim that aligns to their methods. That, I do not agree with and never will.

Unfortunately, what (I believe) started out as a well meaning movement, has descended into what I view as a cult/cult type behaviour - gaslighting, bullying, etc, to achieve their own end. I have first hand experience of their original method, which was not long toes btw, and our pony was in significant discomfort (as I have posted about on another thread) and sadly, the lady whose visit i jumped on, ended up with a crippled horse.

I've no doubt they have success to a certain degree but they cherry pick the successful cases we see, without a doubt. They have no peer reviewed studies, no scientific evidence, and professionals are distancing themselves more and more from this group and their associates, which is a good thing imo.

I used to have a lot of respect for the track livery in question, in fact I'd contacted them a few years back about their offering, however, on reflection, I'm glad it's something I didn't peruse for various reasons.

In my view, any 'professional' who has to shout, belittle, bully, flounce when things dont go their way, is not a professional I will support/endorse, or take advice from - that goes for both the group and their associates.

I think the sooner this comes to an end, the better for many horses and humans alike, and I really dont care if that means anyone loses their livelihood, reputation (I use that term loosely) etc.
 
I had no idea what some of the barefoot groups were saying. It is indeed worrying.

I think it is unfortunate that some take to arguing the exact opposite though, just for the sake of it, stating that farriers and vets will not get it wrong and do not influence pedal bone rotation. Because unfortunately they can.

It is a complex issue, laminitis, and sweeping statements from any point of view just serve to compromise and confuse things for owners in my opinion.

Good, balanced, well-rounded, experienced advice is what is needed. Not coming down all or nothing for one aspect of it all.
 
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PurpleSpots said:
I had no idea what the barefoot groups were saying. It is indeed worrying.

I think it is unfortunate that some take to arguing the exact opposite though, just for the sake of it, stating that farriers and vets will not get it wrong and do not influence pedal bone rotation. Because unfortunately they can.

It is a complex issue, laminitis, and sweeping statements from any point of view just serve to compromise and confuse things for owners in my opinion.

Good, balanced, well-rounded, experienced advice is what is needed. Not coming down all or nothing for one aspect of it all.
Click to expand...

It's not all barefoot groups. It is just THEIR barefoot groups. The Phoenix FB group is run by HM.
 
millitiger said:
@PurpleSpots I'm intrigued to know which page is categorically stating that trim can never cause or be part of a cause of rotation?
I'm on quite a lot of hoof groups and pages and not seen anyone say this.
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I will pm you so as not to contravene any forum rules.

Apologies for seeming to infer I thought it was all barefoot groups writing misleading and damaging posts, I have edited my earlier post to include the words 'some of'.
 
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