Headshaker or tantrums?

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vennessa

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I went to have a look at a 9 year old thoroughbred yesterday we have been asked to take in.
The lady told me it is a severe head shaker. Kerelli did a post a couple of weeks ago or answered someone and i went along with pts in mind.
Now i am thinking differently. The mare is realy sweet natured. The owner admits to being a novice and bought the mare as a staedy hack. She said she has obviously been very well schooled and is a lovely ride although does buck.
In the arena she does not head shake. Infact the only time she headshakes is when she goes on a hack.
What i found intersting was the headshakeing starts when asked to go past her field. She is absolutely fine on the lane around her normal surroundings. There is quite a distance between her summer paddock/winter paddock/arena but she is fine. As soon as she is down the lane and gets to the outside corner of her paddock she will start headshakeing and get progressively worse until she is knocking herself in the head.
I didn't see any of it as i only saw her in the field. When the lady bought her she only saw her in the arena. Never haveing bought a horse before she did not ask to see her ridden out.
I am now wondering if she is a head shaker or throwing a tantrum because she does not wish to leave home. Her owner does not let her get her head down to buck so i was wondering if the headshakeing is trying. The owner has admitted to not haveing pushed her to carry on but gets off and leads her back. The vet has checked her twice and found nothing wrong.
The horse is very happy being a field ornament.
Your thoughts views apreciated.
She is comeing to us next week.
She will be allowed to settle in, we will get to know each other and then start trying things to observe reactions but my gut feeling is she is not a true headshaker.
Sisco an ex eventer we have was a bit of a head shaker but we found it was stress with him. Now he is happy and relaxed it has stopped. He also did not like a martingale and a flash noseband - which came with him. As an observer he seemed to react to them. We removed them and he improved quickly.
I cannot help thinking there is a cause for the thoroughbred other than what normally causes it.
 
It could very well be a tantrum...

Buddy does the same kind of thing but this is when he is tied up and waiting to go into his stable. He doesnt do it in the school either it is only when he is waiting to be fed.

Im not ruling out possibly of being a headshaker but with Buddy it is just a down right stupid tantrum.
 
Sounds a bit strange - surely if she was a headshaker then she would shake when ridden anyway and not just when she was asked to go past her field? I don't have enough experience of headshakers to offer a clinical based opinion though - sorry!
 
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Sounds a bit strange - surely if she was a headshaker then she would shake when ridden anyway and not just when she was asked to go past her field? I don't have enough experience of headshakers to offer a clinical based opinion though - sorry!

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That is my thoughts. I don't have experience of headshakers but just doing when asked to go past her field raised questions with me especially as she is a home lover happy being a field ornament.
 
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It could very well be a tantrum...

Buddy does the same kind of thing but this is when he is tied up and waiting to go into his stable. He doesnt do it in the school either it is only when he is waiting to be fed.

Im not ruling out possibly of being a headshaker but with Buddy it is just a down right stupid tantrum.

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That is the way i was thinking. Feed time is nice and so excitment stirs and comes out with shakeing the head.
 
Just a tantrum i think as she would do all the time rather than just walking by the field.

Im not sure how you can correct it though but i do get it quite often with Buddy. With him its just the excitement or the fact he is dying for a wee even if he has been standing in his stables 2 hours before i got to the yard!
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I have a TB and when I went to try him his threw his head up and down a bit and i enquired about it but was assured he was ok. I had his teeth and back done and keep having his back done because he does have a weakness and for the most part this keeps the headshaking away. However, he will do it when the flies are around or on a hack when he thinks he's going back to the stable and when he's tied up and I bring his food by so some of it I put down to a bit of paddy and a bit of excitement. He does do it when he gets a bit tired too. Sounds like the mare isn't a headshaker, she may get problems with pollen, my boy seems to a bit but I tried a nose net and it didn't make that much of a difference. I've worked through the tantrum stages and done months of flat work, as his education and flexibility have improved so has the headshaking to the point that it hardly bothers me now. Incidentally, when I first got him the headshaking did seem to preceed a tantrum that included a buck. TBs eh ! Who'd 'ave 'em
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Well! Dragon had been bought as a headshaker and he DOES shake his head but it's in times of stress.

He is a VERY complicated case (long story) but basically I personally think that tension/blood pressure and the nasal passages are all linked with this stress related head shaking.

My thinking does have "some" science behind it in that magnesium is known to have a calming effect and has in the past helped Dragon's head tossing - magnesium is used in human medicines to treat blood pressure.

I think some horses have very sensitive nasal membranes and the slightest irritation - say caused by increased heart rate and blood pressure causes them discomfort in the face and they head toss.

THis also fits with them not liking flash nosebands etc.

In the case of this mare, it could well be that the stress of leaving the paddock kicks it off.

Now this is just all my opinion so please don't quote me as gospel, but having to deal with Dragon's issues has caused me to look at all sorts of possibilities.

So I wouldn't describe it as a tantrum but I would say it sounds stress related.
 
My lad is a headshaker. However he only headshakes when close to certain tree pollen. At home in the school he is fine, out on the roads he is fine, infact hacking anywhere that he isnt enclosed by trees he is fine. However when on local common we go through an area with lots of pine trees, and he reacts to them, even with his nosenet on. I was told that pine tree pollen is very fine and can go through the nosenet.

For over a year I thought he was napping and being a b@stard, but he wasnt, he was genuninely uncomfortable....

Although she may be napping she may also not be a 'typical' headshaker and there mak be something in particular that flares up her allergy. We use a hayfever nasal spray on our lad daily and it seems to really help. He also can't wear a flash noseband or drop noseband and is ridden in no noseband or a grakle which helps keep me in control but doesnt put pressure on his rather sensitive nose....
 
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Well! Dragon had been bought as a headshaker and he DOES shake his head but it's in times of stress.

He is a VERY complicated case (long story) but basically I personally think that tension/blood pressure and the nasal passages are all linked with this stress related head shaking.

My thinking does have "some" science behind it in that magnesium is known to have a calming effect and has in the past helped Dragon's head tossing - magnesium is used in human medicines to treat blood pressure.

I think some horses have very sensitive nasal membranes and the slightest irritation - say caused by increased heart rate and blood pressure causes them discomfort in the face and they head toss.

THis also fits with them not liking flash nosebands etc.

In the case of this mare, it could well be that the stress of leaving the paddock kicks it off.

Now this is just all my opinion so please don't quote me as gospel, but having to deal with Dragon's issues has caused me to look at all sorts of possibilities.

So I wouldn't describe it as a tantrum but I would say it sounds stress related.

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Thats interesting. When she rang me my first thought was stress related. It was only when i saw where she starts i thought tantrum. As she is very well behaved i am wondering again if it is stress of leaving home.
I found your comment about the flash noseband very interesting. It was only by obseving him i decided to remove it although i did leave it on loosely the first time so he thought it was there. He has a caveson now and likes to be ridden with body and not 'contact' as such. He goes in a natural fabulous outline anyway.
I can't wait to start working with her/observing her.
 
It sounds very similar to my mare, who is a TBx. I do not beleive her to be a true headshaker at all. The times when she has headshaked in the past is when jumping in a field with a gag and martingale when there are lots of flies about. In the arena she is 100% fine, in a snaffle she is 100% fine, she goes well in the field with her 'ears' (whats the technical name for them?!!) on, she just gets incredibly worked up about jumping. My ex-jump instructor has however written her off as a headshaker. However I am sure it is just down to frustration and her sensitivity at being too strongly bitted. I would be inclined to say the mare you are looking at it throwing a tantrum/frustrated/hayfever related.
 
Does Sisco have a sort of "bump" around the point of where say a headcollar noseband would hang?

I'm just interested as Dragon does have a sort of soft ever so slightly raised area just above the front of his muzzle.

I always wondered if this area was the "culprit" area but have never known anyone else speak of it in headshaking chats.
 
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Does Sisco have a sort of "bump" around the point of where say a headcollar noseband would hang?

I'm just interested as Dragon does have a sort of soft ever so slightly raised area just above the front of his muzzle.

I always wondered if this area was the "culprit" area but have never known anyone else speak of it in headshaking chats.

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Yes he does actually, well did/still has slightly. I have just realised it has gone down quite a bit but you can still feel it. I used to think it was because the previouse rider before he came to us tightened the noseband/flash so much. She used to tighten the flash to the point of cutting in. I could feel the pain for him. His headshakeing got steadily worse with her which to me was not a head shaker but trying to get away from the pain. She was totally shocked when she saw him ridden in a caveson noseband with a french link snaffle bit and no martingale with the slightest contact. He is a totally different horse. They cannot speak - that hurts, so we have to look at why they do certain things.
 
it could be something in that particular place (a type of pollen for example) which triggers it. i have one horse here who gets very 'twitchy' at a specific point we pass on one hack, he doesn't do it anywhere else. it is not stress related in his case, he does it on a long rein while mooching along.
Silver_Florin, i think it's a case of 'wait and see'. i'd never advocate pts a healthy horse having a minor tantrum, slight allergy attack, or whatever, god forbid... in my horse's case it was real and prolonged pain, the headshaking was a symptom of the pain he was in.
 
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Does Sisco have a sort of "bump" around the point of where say a headcollar noseband would hang?

I'm just interested as Dragon does have a sort of soft ever so slightly raised area just above the front of his muzzle.

I always wondered if this area was the "culprit" area but have never known anyone else speak of it in headshaking chats.

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Yes he does actually, well did/still has slightly. I have just realised it has gone down quite a bit but you can still feel it. I used to think it was because the previouse rider before he came to us tightened the noseband/flash so much. She used to tighten the flash to the point of cutting in. I could feel the pain for him. His headshakeing got steadily worse with her which to me was not a head shaker but trying to get away from the pain.

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How fascinating!

We don't know his real history. All we know is that he has fantastic breeding (Donnerhall) and was imported from Germany - then sold pretty sharpish soon after for what must have been a loss.

We've had various experts advise us that he had been pushed very much too far too soon.

You've just made me wonder though, if that this sensitivity is caused by the noseband having been too tight?

We know that his incorrect and rushed training caused a defect in the way he moves behind, this then meant that when he pushed from behind the rider/saddle would be thrown foward to his wither, making him sore.

Who knows, when he got sore perhaps they dealt with his reacting with tighter tack/flash etc? Perhaps this then damaged this nose area we've talked about and caused the sensitivity?

Hmmm...? A good ponder for a Friday
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it could be something in that particular place (a type of pollen for example) which triggers it. i have one horse here who gets very 'twitchy' at a specific point we pass on one hack, he doesn't do it anywhere else. it is not stress related in his case, he does it on a long rein while mooching along.
Silver_Florin, i think it's a case of 'wait and see'. i'd never advocate pts a healthy horse having a minor tantrum, slight allergy attack, or whatever, god forbid... in my horse's case it was real and prolonged pain, the headshaking was a symptom of the pain he was in.

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The pollen at a certain point is a good thought also.
When i said thoughts of pts i mean just that if it turned out as severe as you described on another post, sorry it came out sounding otherwise. I listen to all and muse and think about it. It was just in my mind if it turned out so severe and the poor horse was living a life of severe prolonged pain it was an option. I had not seen the horse until yesterday but not haveing a clue about headshakeing i found the post interesting. Pts was definately at the furthest end of the spectrum if the horse could not be helped and was in constant sheer pain.
She will settle in and then gradually start doing things to see how she reacts/behaves as with all of them. I just find other peoples experiences interesting as this is new on me. I honestly did not take it as telling me to do it. I did realise it was a last resort due to such severe unmanageable pain
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I have got this exact problem! Been riding my friend's new horse - 5 year old for a few weeks. Out hacking he shakes his head and I am convinced it is temper/excitement. When in front he doesn't do it (but I don't want to always ride him infront). He also does it more on way home especially walking down the drive back to stables. Thing is - is there any way of stopping him? I've tried having no contact at all but it makes no difference. He is so good otherwise - doesn't spook, doesn't jog, will canter and then comes back to walk fine - it just seems that his excitement comes out in the head shaking.
 
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