Health and Safety on yards

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LucyLou63

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I was talking to a friend over Christmas, she has a horse at a DIY yard and was telling me how the yard has gone down hill recently. Her main worry is the lack of security lighting, as bulbs have blown the YO has not replaced them so the place is pitch black at night. She's fallen over a few times trying to get about and as she works long hours is often the only one there in the evening so is also worried about her personal security.

The muck heap is in a field and never gets removed, the YO said it's too expensive, my friend said the field is like a bog and there's a single plank to wheel the barrow up to the top of the heap which she slipped off, luckily it's a soft if smelly landing.

Then there's the drive way which never gets repaired, liveries have complained about their cars grounding out on the drive to the yard to which the YO said she never has a problem, she drives a 4wd!! she even told my friend to get a yard car!!

A livery complained about the lack of lighting on the yard and was told to leave!! So everyone there is loathe to complain in case they get thrown off the yard!

And for those of you who say move to another yard it's not so easy there's not many in the area (near London) and those that are around are full with waiting lists so not so easy to just go.

So are there any rules around health and safety on livery yards as there is in the work place? Are yards never inspected unless BHS approved? Does the YO not have some duty of care to her clients as she is taking money from them and running a business? What happens if someone or their horse has a serious accident due to the lack of lighting? I can't believe that there's not health and safety policy for livery yards?
 
Its tricky.
I Yard owner asked someone to leave when a livery complained them most things you do are going to be resolved the same way.

cant the liveries club togther, get their other halves involved and to a few urgent things themselves?

As for health and safety im sure there are rules but getting them inforced may be difficult and may end up getting your yard closed down!
 
blucanoo1990 said:
Its tricky.
I Yard owner asked someone to leave when a livery complained them most things you do are going to be resolved the same way.

cant the liveries club togther, get their other halves involved and to a few urgent things themselves?

As for health and safety im sure there are rules but getting them inforced may be difficult and may end up getting your yard closed down!
Click to expand...
-If you are a BHS gold member contact their legal department.
-Local councils can inspect livery yards under the Health & Safety at Work act 1974 but they have to be told there is a problem.
- World Horse Welfare (formerly ILPH) may be able to follow it up if this is reported to them

If livery clients or their OHs do work on the yard and anything goes wrong they could be in a worse mess.

Perhaps a delegation could approach the YO - she's not going to evict all of you - and point out that you have a contract with her even if it is a verbal one, that she has a duty of care to her customers and that she is fulfilling neither. Give her a list of what you need and point out that BHS, the local council and the local equestrian world will be interested in your complaints if things don't improve. Point out to her that if the absence of lighting and the Heath Robinson arrangements at the muck heap lead to an accident she could be sued and might lose her business.
 
I'm not sure I understand most of the actual problems. Outside security lights might be handy, but hardly a health & safety issue because she can't manage without them. Lots of people manage with just indoor lights, or even none. Maybe if friend can't manage to walk about outside at night she could get a torch or headlight? And no idea what it has to do with her being there alone, security lights aren't going to put off someone intent on doing harm. Muck heap in field, again not an issue imo, assuming it was there when she went to view the yard initially. The single plank is fair enough, should really be a bit wider. The driveway, again while a pita, assuming it was in a similar state when friend moved there, isn't something I see as a major issue.
If I was yo, & liveries insisted I do something, I would get quotes for sorting the driveway, concreting muck heap & buying a proper ramp, & then ask the liveries how they felt about their new livery rate to cover costs. I find on yards like this, 99% of the time its because they are cheap & you get what you pay for. And if I was yo & liveries started threatening to report me to force me into repairs, I'd just give them notice to go.
 
It sounds to me as if the yard owner is having severe financial problems. Your choices could be to report her so she has to close down. Or all volunteer to pay higher livery fees so she can make the necessary changes and carry on.
 
Thanks for all the replies, I just thought that running a business then the person should have some regard for other's health and safety?

I will pass on the ideas to my friend but as stated there's sadly not a lot of choice in the area. She said every year the livery goes up it's now £36pw for DIY not sure if that's a good rate or not that includes a stable and turn out daytime only. Also she said the YO charges for lorries and trailers to park and states that this cost IS to maintain the drive due to them being more likely than a car to damage the surface, so as far as the driveway is concerned it should be repaired surely?

I get the feeling that it will be hard to get others to side with her as they are all worried about getting thrown off with nowhere to go.
Oh well it's not my yard, but I was just interested to see if there's anything around running a business that should involve health and safety or why livery yards are not inspected?
 
The Local Authority have no duty to inspect liverly yards and if they ever do, then I can assure you that there will be a lot of people looking for a place to keep their horse. The legislation tends to be with regard to Health and Safety at work, and provided no-one is employed there, most will not be relevant (YO is not classed as an employee). What is to stop the livery putting another plank down alongside the one that is there already? People don't appear to understand what DIY means. Agree that the woman the OP knows should invest in a torch. If the price per week is normal for those facilities in that area, then the answer is there. If people can't move, then it appears that the YO has the final say, as it is obviously a sellers market.
 
The only health and safety issues that bother me are the ones that affect the horses directly. Unsafe electrical wiring in stable blocks, poor fencing and huge muck heaps too near stables or on grazing fields with poor drainage.

No lighting is easily solved by a head torch or a portable light, the plank up to the muck heap is a pain but not too bad.

As long as the horses are ok, being inconvenienced or having to be reasonable for my own H&S, isn't a big deal. Finding a good yard is always a compromise and as long as its good for the horses, the rest can be put up with.
 
36 pounds per week is fairly cheap for the area. I agree with the others. If you want a smart yard you'll need to pay more like 45-50 pounds per week for DIY on a more professionally run, tidier yard with facilities like lights etc.
 
The Yard Owner has a duty of care to anyone on the premises. This is the statutory duty under the Health and Safety at Work Act and a duty under Common Law.

Guidance has been produced for inspectors which may also be useful for others (it even mentioned ramps to muck heaps!):

Title: Health and safety guidance for inspections of horse riding establishments and livery yards

Publication month: 2006

Summary:

Most riding school and livery yard premises will theoretically have some form of legal obligations with regard to the management of safety risks to employees and others who may be affected by work activities, for example children. This guidance is aimed at improving the knowledge and understanding of health and safety issues relating to such premises. It is primarily targeted towards enforcement officers but will also be of interest to livery yard and riding school proprietors.

The publication is split into a number of chapters to enable it either to be read from cover to cover or elements selected as required. It contains relevant forms and checklists, including a general checklist for inspections. Amongst other things, it identifies the groups of individuals that are generally exposed to the hazards and risks and explores some of the incidents that have happened. It also sets out both the general and specific controls that are currently used.

http://www.cieh.org/uploadedFiles/C...s/Publications/Livery_Yards_Guidance_2006.pdf
 
Much as I sympathise with the situation and think the YO needs a rocket I wouldnt be stumbling around in the dark, I'd be using my initiative, grouping the liveries together and seeing if everyone will buy a lightbulb each then telling the YO I was sorting it myself and if the bulbs are specialist deducting it from my bill. if they are cheap I's swallow the cost

Some old rubber car mats for the plank etc

Yes its down to the YO but these things are common sense surely
 
Just to add, local authority inspectors may visit and inspect any premises for which they are the enforcement authority at any reasonable time or if they consider that there is imminent danger. The local authority is the enforcing authority for livery yards. Given their resource level and the emphasis on them visiting higher risk activities, it is very unlikely that a livery yard will be visited unless a serious accident occurs. Livery yards are not routinely inpected like riding schools as they are not "licensed". There was proposed secondary legislation under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to license livery yards, however this has never moved forward.

However, getting the local authority involved or some other official body may not necessarily achieve the positive result that is desired.

We live in difficult financial times and DIY livery seems to be at a premium with demand outstripping supply.

That doesn't mean to say that health safety and welfare of both people and horses shouldn't be taken seriously. They should.

Please don't shoot me down for what I'm about to say, because I know it's very easy to say, but getting a disinterested yard owner to react positively can be horrendously difficult.

I'd suggest that you probably need to try and work together. Don't just take the yard owner problems, where possible solutions. Although, I'd agree with one of the other contributors, don't take on responsibility for the implementation of the solutions.

It may be a case of slowly slowly catchee monkey. You may need to slowly sow the seeds.

Without knowing or seeing the premises it is difficult to know whether exterior lighting is necessary. Whilst it might not be necessary it may be highly desirable with other benefits, such as deterring thieves and arsonists and providing that additional light in the event of a horse or person having a serious accident.

There may be a simple solution to the ramp – work to the criteria mentioned in the document in my previous post.

The driveway is difficult to comment on. Is it so bad that it would prevent a fire engine, ambulance police car or vet attending?

Try to put reasonable cases.

Of course, there is always the slightly larger stick of fines of prosecution or compensation from a civil action. Sadly, if it ever got to the stage it might be a lose-lose situation for both the yard owner and liveries.

It's probably worth remembering that in the event of a prosecution the questions that would be asked would be "was it reasonably foreseeable?" and was "reasonably practicable to do something about it". Employers are only required in most circumstances to satisfy the criteria of "so far as is reasonably practicable". This can be explained by the magnitude of the risk being balanced against the time travel and cost of controlling the risk. It's about proportionality. In other words the greater the risk the more you would be expected to put resources into controlling the risk.

If I may digress for a moment, since late December 6 horses in two separate incidents have been tragically killed by fire. They have been reported through these forums. I'd urge both yard and horse owners to make electrical safety and fire prevention a priority in 2013.

Safety is everyone's responsibility. Working together has to be the answer. Let me say to everyone, that what I've said is is far easier said than done! It may be a case of trying to provide the solutions and also the benefits!

Hopefully a win-win situation. Life isn't easy in these times when everyone is under so much financial pressure but hopefully health, safety and welfare can be managed sensibly and successfully.
 
Tbh, if I were the yO I would close the yard. There is so little money in it that I doubt the yard is worth the cost of redoing the drive etc, I also think that if she did the works wanted, the liveries would then want more doing and better facilities and so it goes on. It's been many years since I was on a livery yard, we mended fences ourselves when it was required etc. There were others who felt that every little thing should be done by the YO, including the provision of wheelbarrows etc! As they hadn't got their own, they used whichever was around at the time, there are always two sides to every story.
 
Sixteen Hands said:
Just to add, local authority inspectors may visit and inspect any premises for which they are the enforcement authority at any reasonable time or if they consider that there is imminent danger. The local authority is the enforcing authority for livery yards. Given their resource level and the emphasis on them visiting higher risk activities, it is very unlikely that a livery yard will be visited unless a serious accident occurs. Livery yards are not routinely inpected like riding schools as they are not "licensed". There was proposed secondary legislation under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to license livery yards, however this has never moved forward.

However, getting the local authority involved or some other official body may not necessarily achieve the positive result that is desired.

We live in difficult financial times and DIY livery seems to be at a premium with demand outstripping supply.

That doesn't mean to say that health safety and welfare of both people and horses shouldn't be taken seriously. They should.

Please don't shoot me down for what I'm about to say, because I know it's very easy to say, but getting a disinterested yard owner to react positively can be horrendously difficult.

I'd suggest that you probably need to try and work together. Don't just take the yard owner problems, where possible solutions. Although, I'd agree with one of the other contributors, don't take on responsibility for the implementation of the solutions.

It may be a case of slowly slowly catchee monkey. You may need to slowly sow the seeds.

Without knowing or seeing the premises it is difficult to know whether exterior lighting is necessary. Whilst it might not be necessary it may be highly desirable with other benefits, such as deterring thieves and arsonists and providing that additional light in the event of a horse or person having a serious accident.

There may be a simple solution to the ramp – work to the criteria mentioned in the document in my previous post.

The driveway is difficult to comment on. Is it so bad that it would prevent a fire engine, ambulance police car or vet attending?

Try to put reasonable cases.

Of course, there is always the slightly larger stick of fines of prosecution or compensation from a civil action. Sadly, if it ever got to the stage it might be a lose-lose situation for both the yard owner and liveries.

It's probably worth remembering that in the event of a prosecution the questions that would be asked would be "was it reasonably foreseeable?" and was "reasonably practicable to do something about it". Employers are only required in most circumstances to satisfy the criteria of "so far as is reasonably practicable". This can be explained by the magnitude of the risk being balanced against the time travel and cost of controlling the risk. It's about proportionality. In other words the greater the risk the more you would be expected to put resources into controlling the risk.

If I may digress for a moment, since late December 6 horses in two separate incidents have been tragically killed by fire. They have been reported through these forums. I'd urge both yard and horse owners to make electrical safety and fire prevention a priority in 2013.

Safety is everyone's responsibility. Working together has to be the answer. Let me say to everyone, that what I've said is is far easier said than done! It may be a case of trying to provide the solutions and also the benefits!

Hopefully a win-win situation. Life isn't easy in these times when everyone is under so much financial pressure but hopefully health, safety and welfare can be managed sensibly and successfully.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info I will pass it on! I know it's a difficult situation, just don't know any other walk of life where people would be prepared to pay for such standards? I work in a business that means that I deal with customers every day and you wouldn't believe the things that people want to claim compensation for!! Maybe it's just time before the YO gets someone on her yard that needs some extra money and makes a claim, I am not suggesting anything but in this day and age it seems to be the done thing, just look at the car insurance industry.
We all love our horses but would we put up with this if we were paying for gym membership, or for our kids to go to an unsafe school? Why do liveries put up with it? I know it's hard where she is due to lack of choice and I suppose the YO is exploiting that unfortunately.
 
I think the day that someone makes a claim is the day the yard will shut. Land around London must be worth a fortune... I shut my DIY yard for that reason - it made no money at all and you were constantly worrying about someone falling over or something. Now I walk up my plank on my muckheap that hasn't been removed for three years in the dark, and sometimes I fall over! (the other option is to fork the muck up from the bottom and avoid the plank..) Thirty years ago when I first got ponies, most yards were like that, and you were on a luxury yard if it even had a light. I used to muck out after school with torches angled around the stable to try and get some light.

ps. Most yards that charge for lorry and trailer parking do so because they are taking up space..
 
As already said, many yards work on such little profit that to meet the high level of H&S needed to protect the stupid, many YO's would save themselves the expense and hassle by closing down instead.

If the lack of safety at a DIY yard isn't acceptable to the client, then they should move elsewhere like most people do when they don't like a yard.

Its not so hard to provide lighting. OH put a solar light up by our field gate, for which the YO was so surprised and appreciative. It wasn't a big deal, a head torch is pretty useful too.
Lots of practical solutions, very cheaply or cost free, can be made if liveries offer to help and have the YO's agreement.

Its better to be a livery who adds something to a yard, rather than demoralises the owner with negative whinging.
 
The situation as such is that the owner of any livery yard be it do-it-yourself or full livery has a 'duty of care' to any members of the public or visitors using it.
It is a business like any business.
At the very least the owner should have a 'Health and Safety Audit carried out at least once a year to highlight any problems and the results of the audit should be available for inspection at any time. This is actually important as if an accident was to occur and the Health and Safety Executive became involved they would insist on seeing the assesments.
It is as much in the yard owners interest to comply with this as otherwise should an accident occur and a claim arise or the Health and safety executive become involved they would need to demonstrate compliance with current Health and Safety legislation. Failure to comply could result in a fine and also a claim by the injured person or on behalf of an injured horse.
One other issue which is often missed on livery yards and training yards is that if a horse is hacked out by a member of staff they should wear Hi-Viz to the Professional PPE (Personal protective Equipment) standard.
 
Maybe instead of having a H&S audit every 12 months, the YO should only have liveries with common sense.

You know,people with radical thinking like;

'its dark, I'll get my torch'.

'Its icy, I won't throw water over the yard and I'll wear Yaxtrax on my boots today.

Or even..

'This is hot coffee, I'll let a cool for a moment'.
 
Diy livery is different in the standards we expect from other industries. But that's because unlike other industries, the price hasn't risen with inflation anywhere near as much. And a lot of things livery yards depend on (the cost of land for instance) has actually risen more than associated costs in many other industries.
 
horserider said:
As already said, many yards work on such little profit that to meet the high level of H&S needed to protect the stupid, many YO's would save themselves the expense and hassle by closing down instead.

Its better to be a livery who adds something to a yard, rather than demoralises the owner with negative whinging.
Click to expand...

Providing the basic level of compliance with health and safety legislation often costs no more than the Yo's time. There is not a legal requirement to provide a high level of health and safety to protect the stupid. The legal requirement imposes a duty of care to protect those in your employ and those who are not. The duty of care extends to those who are vulnerable, for example young persons, those lacking training or experience. The legal requirement is qualified by "so far as is reasonably practicable".

A "stupid" person might decide to jump in front of a train arriving at a platform. Apart from a few full height barriers on the Jubilee line (one at Westminster – I wonder why?) We do not see the use of barriers at stations. Neither do we see all cliffs fenced off.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that liveries should add something to a yard.
 
horserider said:
Maybe instead of having a H&S audit every 12 months, the YO should only have liveries with common sense.

You know,people with radical thinking like;

'its dark, I'll get my torch'.

'Its icy, I won't throw water over the yard and I'll wear Yaxtrax on my boots today.

Or even..

'This is hot coffee, I'll let a cool for a moment'.
Click to expand...
________________________________________________________________

"Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764)

"Common sense is something you get right after you need it."
 
OWLIE185 said:
At the very least the owner should have a 'Health and Safety Audit carried out at least once a year to highlight any problems and the results of the audit should be available for inspection at any time. This is actually important as if an accident was to occur and the Health and Safety Executive became involved they would insist on seeing the assesments.
It is as much in the yard owners interest to comply with this as otherwise should an accident occur and a claim arise or the Health and safety executive become involved they would need to demonstrate compliance with current Health and Safety legislation. Failure to comply could result in a fine and also a claim by the injured person or on behalf of an injured horse.
One other issue which is often missed on livery yards and training yards is that if a horse is hacked out by a member of staff they should wear Hi-Viz to the Professional PPE (Personal protective Equipment) standard.
Click to expand...
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A safety audit is certainly a quick way to determine any weaknesses. But it only forms part of the system that needs to be in place. I've worked closely with two HSE inspectors. The first told me that very often on inspections, as soon as he walks in, he is bombarded with safety paperwork. The first question he asks is how do you comply with regulation 5 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations (1999). He said that very often there is a puzzled look.

Regulation 5 states:
Regulation 5 Health and safety arrangements
(1) Every employer shall make and give effect to such arrangements as are appropriate, having regard to the nature of his activities and the size of his undertaking, for the effective planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review of the preventive and protective measures.
(2) Where the employer employs five or more employees, he shall record the arrangements referred to in paragraph (1).

(For those interested in a darn good read: The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations (1999) is available as a free download from the HSE at: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l21.pdf )...

In other words, whilst he might be interested in the safety paperwork held, he's more interested in how that paperwork translates into the day-to-day management of health and safety out on the ground.

The other HSE inspector said that when investigating, employers often considered that safety documentation was the be all and end all and didn't understand safety isn't just about paperwork it's about how it's managed.

Identical views.

Let's be realistic, when you're around horses accidents can happen. By managing safety on a day-to-day basis – which really isn't that difficult – it may help prevent the preventable accidents. By managing safety, some of these accidents and potential prosecutions and claims may never come to fruition. More importantly people (and horses) may not get injured or worse...

Just to clarify, the Local Authority are the enforcing agency for riding schools and livery yards. Therefore if visited it will be by them rather than the HSE. Enforcement is split across the horse industry in that it is Local Authority for riding schools and livery yards and the HSE for racing yards.

But owners of riding schools and livery yards (and horse owners too) would be wise to download a copy of "Health and Safety Guidance for Inspections of Horse Riding Establishments and Livery Yards"
(free download at: http://www.cieh.org/uploadedFiles/C...s/Publications/Livery_Yards_Guidance_2006.pdf )

On page 122 the document talks about audit:

"MONITORING AND AUDIT
Many of the assessments will have identified the need for regular maintenance checks, eg of the structural components of the premises or of the work equipment. These checks do not have to be onerous and in many cases can be carried out by generalist employees. Proprietors may find it useful to draw up checklists relating to their premises and to ensure that these are completed at intervals suggested by the risk assessments and other processes. Written checklists are preferable."

A written checklists that could be used by yard owners can be found on page 137.

Yes agree, if hi viz is being used in a professional capacity, i.e. by employees, it should be to the professional standard EN471. In addition, employees should be wearing riding helmets to the appropriate standard when mounted and at times where there is a significant risk on the ground
 
I tend to agree with what "Littlelegs" has said a while back on this thread:

A head-torch is a useful piece of kit and would resolve the issue of being totally in the dark to do stuff.

I have security lighting at my place (I'm a YO) and very useful it is, BUT actually, it can make me feel MORE insecure at night not less so! Simply because if I'm the light and can be seen clearly...... there may be someone else out there in the darkness who I can't see, but who can see me very clearly - but if everyone's in the dark then there is a certain logic there, if you see what I mean.

Although having said that, if security lights ARE in place then it IS the duty of the YO to replace them and frankly I think he/she should do so PDQ. It should not be up to the liveries to do this.

Re. the muckheap/single plank. FFS! What does OP want - a luxury carpet laid down for liveries to walk up with their poo? Methinks some people just need to man up a bit TBH.

As regards the driveway being rutted: this is the norm for horsey places!!! :) Strewth, I've been to see horses for sale at the bottom of some pretty formidable bumpy tracks that would've broken the axle off a tank! Replacing the driveway with tarmac, concrete or whatever is going to cost the YO a lot of money, which is fine as long as liveries are happy for their fees to go up as well as??????

It sounds like OP wants/needs a posher place than she is currently at; basically you gets what you pays for - so if liveries are not happy, then move!
 
Sixteen Hands said:
________________________________________________________________

"Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764)

"Common sense is something you get right after you need it."
Click to expand...

Heard this the other day;
Whats the one thing that you could sell that no one would buy because those who need it, are too stupid to realise they don't have any, and those who value it, already have it ?










Answer. Common sense.
 
All YO should do what they can to prevent accidents that are reasonably foreseeable and preventable - this to my mind on a yard selling itself as a livery means providing working lighting especially if lighting was provided when you first decided to go to the yard.

Our yard thinks it is perfectly reasonable to provide a set of steps up to the muck trailer - yes thats right steps! Apparently this is fairly common on racing yards (we are not a racing yard) we are mostly a bunch of middle-aged women with back and knee problems and full-time jobs but we have to take it up in skips or sacks although some manage to drag a wheelbarrow up the steps and basically its if you don't like it leave. This is a new burden introduced recently. On balance the alternatives are worse and the current benefits outweigh the inconvenience so we stick with it but I do think the YO would be on sticky ground if someone were to hurt themselves as TBH its a totally unnecessary and inappropriate and they have the money to provide proper facilities they just choose not to.

As always at the mercy of YO and YM.
 
Sixteen Hands said:
________________________________________________________________

"Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764)

"Common sense is something you get right after you need it."
Click to expand...

horserider said:
Maybe instead of having a H&S audit every 12 months, the YO should only have liveries with common sense.

You know,people with radical thinking like;

'its dark, I'll get my torch'.

'Its icy, I won't throw water over the yard and I'll wear Yaxtrax on my boots today.

Or even..

'This is hot coffee, I'll let a cool for a moment'.
Click to expand...

I agree, why are the liveries suffering falling in the dark or off muck heaps when they can take small actions to remedy the problems themselves? The drive may need maintenance but replacing a few bulbs and nailing some wire mesh to the plank to give grip are fairly easy to do. maybe the YO regards this as one of the elements of DIY the liveries can contribute to?

Even on my Full Livery yard i have a torch on hand, some solegrips for poor weather. We even had an annual yard clear up to make sure the place stays nice for us all to enjoy.
 
Reindeer Renvers said:
I agree, why are the liveries suffering falling in the dark or off muck heaps when they can take small actions to remedy the problems themselves? The drive may need maintenance but replacing a few bulbs and nailing some wire mesh to the plank to give grip are fairly easy to do. maybe the YO regards this as one of the elements of DIY the liveries can contribute to?

Even on my Full Livery yard i have a torch on hand, some solegrips for poor weather. We even had an annual yard clear up to make sure the place stays nice for us all to enjoy.
Click to expand...

If lighting is not to be provided then that should be set out up front and charges adjusted accordingly. If I'm paying for lighting and a place to put my muck I would expect lighting and safe access to the muck heap. Why should yards be different from any other business? Neither of these things cost that much to provide.

Perhaps we should narrow it down as to what a YO should provide - it seems not much. What exactly are people paying for?
 
Op is talking about security lighting, not all lighting. Fwiw ours is only cheap farm diy, & there are a few outdoor lights, handy as they are when the bulbs or fuse has gone in the past its often something I don't even mention till I next see farmer & neither of us are in a rush. It's really no more important than the outdoor light in my garden. And if farmer never mended them (instead of it usually being at least a few weeks) I wouldn't even be bothered enough to ask again, I certainly wouldn't be worrying about the health & safety aspect. If instant action to minor & non necessary issues is important to someone they should move somewhere that charges accordingly & then they can retain the right to moan.
 
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