Health and Safety on yards

There are cheap fixes for all of these.

Light: buy your own lightbulbs and install with YO's permission. Or a headtorch. Or solar lights.

Muckheap: get quotes, take to YO abd negotiate part or full payment by YO, with rest subsidised by liveries if YO won't foot full bill. Obtain car mats or chicken wire and affix to plank.

Driveway: potholes can be improved with rubble, topsoil, road plainings, even old hay/straw or bedding. Sure it takes effort, but how much effort can you reasonably expect a YO to provide with £36 per week? Most of that probably goes on lighting the yard ;)
 
I pay £10 a week each, normally its £12. (I've been there a while, help out with random farm jobs, & one is tiny, thus meaning the grazing goes further). We get year round turnout in well fenced fields, currently no 24/7 & they need hay for a full day out due to weather, but tbf usually don't. Old cow byre converted to stables & concrete yard. Plug socket & lights in barn. Space for lockers etc in barn, & in large haybarn. Near me there's other yards doing the same for £15 or so a week, perhaps not offering 24/7 turnout ever in winter though. And a tap in the barn. Also got a loo we can use but that's actually there for farm use. In exchange we are expected to be frugal with lights, eg if out on yard switch barn lights off. And muck heap is basically an old paddock. He does it cheaper for two reasons. Firstly, they are semi retired & don't have the same numbers of livestock, so provided the horses break even after maintenance, it means they can keep the land & buildings in decent repair. Secondly, he can be picky, good clients stick around & they don't have to take on anyone. I know I'm lucky, but my opinion isn't just based on my yard, I've worked or been on quite a few, ranging from top end pro comp yards to a field with no fence or water supplied, & different areas of the country too with different local prices. And I just realise that diy livery very rarely pays the yo an actual wage for their time, if they are lucky it will just cover the actual equipment for maintenance. So unless you pay enough to cover someone's time & costs, I don't feel you should be complaining. My friend has a horse back on a yard she was on as a kid, over 20yrs ago. Back then, rent was 80pcm. Now its 120pcm. Which explains why maintenance isn't what it was back then.
 
The other thing that I think matters is health and safety itself. Its gone mad. Twenty years ago if you were on a farm based DIY you would expect a few potholes, the odd bulb that needed replacing, the odd ice patch, mud etc. They were part of country life and you had to be careful. Nowadays its a health and safety issue. Yes life would be easier if YO fixed the bits and bobs that need doing, but from what I've read, its nothing life threatening, just inconvenient. For me, major health and safety issues are things like uncovered wires that could electrocute someone, or nails sticking out on walls, or fences fallen over that could injure horses or people, gates that allow horses to escape...

Don't get me wrong, when I did DIY we ran round like crazy things, besides our full time jobs and four own horses, doing jobs (a lot of which were caused by liveries) and spending money on new fences, land maintenance etc that we don't always worry about now its just us - things get fixed when we get a moment, not "before someone slips" etc.
 
My farrier said he's been coming to the yard I'm on for around 15 years in which time no money has been spent on maintenance. He said he can't get up to the yard anymore as the lane is so bad , it is down to the clay in parts with very big dips.
The muck heap is the biggest I've ever seen, at least 15 foot high and 30 foot circular. YO insists you go to the top to tip which I can just about do as hubby got scaffolding planks and put rivets on it.
Stables leak and tack rooms are above accessible by very slippy wooden stairs that my grandaughter slipped on bringing tack down and has hurt her back, everything kept in tack the room is a constant battle with the mould and rat poo is on everything!
All year turn out is horses out up their knees in mud and
YO is lovely, I've been on the yard for 3 years but I can't wait for a serious accident to happen so now looking for another yard :(
 
Perhaps there should be specialist yards for people in need of H&S care.

For the rest of us, can we be left alone to take our chances and not be priced out of keeping horses in an already bleak market ? Funding red tape and maintaining paper pushers is not something I want to endorse in my free time.

I'll even sign a disclaimer in case I trip over the untethered yard cat.
 
horserider said:
Maybe instead of having a H&S audit every 12 months, the YO should only have liveries with common sense.

You know,people with radical thinking like;

'its dark, I'll get my torch'.

'Its icy, I won't throw water over the yard and I'll wear Yaxtrax on my boots today.

Or even..

'This is hot coffee, I'll let a cool for a moment'.
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loool
There's nowt' common about sense....
 
i've been on a few yards that weren't lit or had really bad driveways but i either left the car at the end of the drive and walked up, drove very carefully or on one yard i got a wheelbarrow of chippings and spread them around the worst holes.

i used a torch and a headlamp, i also bought some good torches that had magnets on the back, stuck them to places and knew where they were.
 
riding_high said:
i've been on a few yards that weren't lit or had really bad driveways but i either left the car at the end of the drive and walked up, drove very carefully or on one yard i got a wheelbarrow of chippings and spread them around the worst holes.

i used a torch and a headlamp, i also bought some good torches that had magnets on the back, stuck them to places and knew where they were.
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But why if you are paying for a service?? If the YO isn't bothered about people how do you know the fences aren't safe, or the water troughs working etc also if there's lighting in the stables is this safe? isn't there some law regarding disposal of muck heaps, if left standing for months or years does this not get into the water table?
 
That's just it though, few diy yards actually charge enough to cover a service. Just enough to cover minimum costs. As for longstanding muck heaps, they rot down, I imagine it falls under the same regulations as burying horses on yards does, dependent on location on the property its perfectly legal. While our muck heap is occasionally used as fertilizer, I doubt its been cleared completely for generations, prior to him doing livery, there was just more cows than there are now, & our muckheap was the one for our barn when cows were in there too. The main farm one has probably been there centuries.
 
LucyLou63 said:
But why if you are paying for a service?? If the YO isn't bothered about people how do you know the fences aren't safe, or the water troughs working etc also if there's lighting in the stables is this safe? isn't there some law regarding disposal of muck heaps, if left standing for months or years does this not get into the water table?
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At £35 per week you are not paying for much of a service though are you? Remember that out of that money, any lighting there is has to be paid for, water must be paid for, rates must be paid, any rent or mortgage has to be paid. Any maintenance machinery (quad, tractor whatever) must be paid for. Fencing costs to maintain, new rails, new posts, new electric tape, new energisers etc. Not a lot left out £35.
 
OP you're not paying for that level of service. You need to pay more if you want a properly managed and maintained yard. It's the same when people pay 70 pet week for full livery, then moan that their 16hh horse is only given two slices of small bale hay to last 10hrs overnight. You get what you pay for. If you go to the cheapest yards, expect them to be a bit rubbish.

OP I do understand where toured coming from. No other industry would get away with treating its customers like this. (Although one I can think of is privately rented homes, where tenants at the lower end of the market are often treated like dirt by their landlords). In an ideal world these cheap places wouldn't exist. Then anyone looking to buy their first horse wouldn't think they can get away with cheap livery, not realising that it will be a bit rubbish.

But if someone passed a law now setting up minimum standards for livery yards there wouldn't be the result you hope for. Instead a lot of places would shut, because regardless of the costs being covered by increased livery fees, there would be many YOs who lack either time or inclination to carry out the necessary work to bring their yard up to standard and keep it there. Even if every yard did increase its standards if necessary, many horse owners would now be priced out of the market.

Many of the best yards are that way because there is a system to make them run well, with the YO making a lot of decisions eg regarding turnout, type of bedding etc. Fine for novices needing help, or those with 'average' horses, not so good for those with experience but a tight budget or those whose horses have health problems requiring specific management.

Some people will take the view that if you can't afford proper care on a safe and suitable yard then you shouldn't have a horse. Fair enough, but what would happen to all these, now unwanted, horses? Bearing in mind the UK is already full of horses, some of them decent ones, but still unwanted because nobody can afford to buy or keep them. There are already welfare issues related to this, because even to PTS costs money and lots of people don't want to PTS anyway.

What about all the people too who get great pleasure, sometimes their only pleasure in life, from their horses? A better standard of livery, if it priced those people out of the market, would not improve their lives. Sharing wouldn't be an option, because with less horses owned the opportunities to share wouldn't be there.

My view is that the situation with livery yards is best left as it is. That's because I would rather have a horse on a rubbish yard, than not have a horse at all.
 
Right - I'll put my hands up here and say that a large part of my job relates to H&S (I seem to spend stupid amounts of time writing risk assessments!):p

Real H&S in practice isn't the Daily Fail type reports that claim it stops you doing everything/wraps people in cotton wool - after all, it is impossible to eliminate risk, it's all about minimizing the risks that are inherent in our sport. As sixteen hands pointed out, the law does not allow people to ignore the risk of injury to their employees/clients just because it may be costly. TBH, most of the time H&S is about education and getting everybody to think about how their actions or lack of them could cause injury to others.

In the case of a livery yard, assuming that they do actually have public liability insurance - which they should otherwise they are personally liable - YO will find out that their insurance company will be very reluctant to pay out if they don't have the proper paperwork AND have at least attempted to put the procedures into place. Now, if a YO does their RA and for instance, that has shown that the a loose horse could reasonably get onto a main road and cause a crash all they have to do is put a prominent notice on the gate telling all visitors to keep the gate shut at all times...the responsibility has now been passed to anyone who uses that gate. That is all it takes to get an insurance company to pay what could be a huge claim. Otherwise, a YO could be saying goodbye to any financial security for many years because we all know that the injured/killed drivers ins co isn't going to let the matter go. H&S is not difficult, it just requires forethought IME.

How difficult is it for a yard to provide a wider board to access a muckheap? 2 minutes work and maybe a tenner? Or even easier, remove the board from the equation altogether and start a new muck heap - 6 months on, contact the local allotments and they will come and take the old muck heap - some of them even pay for it. (we won't even mention the environmental rules about the proper management/removal for businesses, potentially some big fines there!)

The driveway, while something that would drive me barmy isn't a H&S issue IMHO and torches will replace outside lighting but a sensible YO would make sure that there isn't junk left lying around that could injure a horse or person especially with limited lighting - duty of care and all that. No cost involved, just a bit of time and organisation. Yes, yards especially DIY are not moneyspinners but if you take someones money(no matter how little and FWIW £36 pw isn't THAT cheap) you also take on certain responsibilities whether you like it or not. Apart from that, HSE are up there with the taxman on visitors a business really doesn't want - they are tough and they, like the taxman have the power to jail you.

We all know our hobby is dangerous and when we make the decision to take the risks involved, that is fine. The decisions we can't take are the ones that could seriously impact on other people and expect to wipe our hands of all responsibility - that isn't fair or reasonable. Accidents do happen but honestly, how many so called accidents could have been avoided? We've all had near misses and been very lucky that there was no serious harm done but if somebodies stupidity/carelessness had caused life long harm to you or yours would you just let it go? Or would you expect that you got some help, either financial or otherwise to support you/yours through the limitations caused by their actions?
 
cbmcts said:
Right - I'll put my hands up here and say that a large part of my job relates to H&S (I seem to spend stupid amounts of time writing risk assessments!):p

Real H&S in practice isn't the Daily Fail type reports that claim it stops you doing everything/wraps people in cotton wool - after all, it is impossible to eliminate risk, it's all about minimizing the risks that are inherent in our sport. As sixteen hands pointed out, the law does not allow people to ignore the risk of injury to their employees/clients just because it may be costly. TBH, most of the time H&S is about education and getting everybody to think about how their actions or lack of them could cause injury to others.

In the case of a livery yard, assuming that they do actually have public liability insurance - which they should otherwise they are personally liable - YO will find out that their insurance company will be very reluctant to pay out if they don't have the proper paperwork AND have at least attempted to put the procedures into place. Now, if a YO does their RA and for instance, that has shown that the a loose horse could reasonably get onto a main road and cause a crash all they have to do is put a prominent notice on the gate telling all visitors to keep the gate shut at all times...the responsibility has now been passed to anyone who uses that gate. That is all it takes to get an insurance company to pay what could be a huge claim. Otherwise, a YO could be saying goodbye to any financial security for many years because we all know that the injured/killed drivers ins co isn't going to let the matter go. H&S is not difficult, it just requires forethought IME.

How difficult is it for a yard to provide a wider board to access a muckheap? 2 minutes work and maybe a tenner? Or even easier, remove the board from the equation altogether and start a new muck heap - 6 months on, contact the local allotments and they will come and take the old muck heap - some of them even pay for it. (we won't even mention the environmental rules about the proper management/removal for businesses, potentially some big fines there!)

The driveway, while something that would drive me barmy isn't a H&S issue IMHO and torches will replace outside lighting but a sensible YO would make sure that there isn't junk left lying around that could injure a horse or person especially with limited lighting - duty of care and all that. No cost involved, just a bit of time and organisation. Yes, yards especially DIY are not moneyspinners but if you take someones money(no matter how little and FWIW £36 pw isn't THAT cheap) you also take on certain responsibilities whether you like it or not. Apart from that, HSE are up there with the taxman on visitors a business really doesn't want - they are tough and they, like the taxman have the power to jail you.

We all know our hobby is dangerous and when we make the decision to take the risks involved, that is fine. The decisions we can't take are the ones that could seriously impact on other people and expect to wipe our hands of all responsibility - that isn't fair or reasonable. Accidents do happen but honestly, how many so called accidents could have been avoided? We've all had near misses and been very lucky that there was no serious harm done but if somebodies stupidity/carelessness had caused life long harm to you or yours would you just let it go? Or would you expect that you got some help, either financial or otherwise to support you/yours through the limitations caused by their actions?
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CBMCTS
That's exactly what I am getting at!!

I am not just saying it's a matter of a few light bulbs, as you have stated above it's the little things that all add up eventually to possibly one big thing! My friend is single, her horse is her world, her hobby and her escape from a very stressful job, the £36 is just for the stable and field but the yard also offers turn out, feeding, bring in, muck out on days that she can't get there due to work pressures which is obviously charged for, so me saying £36 is for the most basic, it's prob more like £75 I would think, I don't know I'd have to ask her. The girl that does most of the work is paid cash in hand so as there's no 'official' staff then I suppose there's no 'official' health and safety at work policy.

It just started off as a conversation over Christmas about how the yard has gone down in recent months/years and the fact that the YO doesn't seem to take kindly to suggestions for improvement and answers them by throwing people off the yard!

I think my friend will move her horse in time once she can find somewhere suitable.

I seem to have opened a can of worms here, with very differing opinions on what people expect from a DIY yard, I suppose the yard she is at is somewhere in the middle between complete DIY and a part/full livery service. I should have stated that at the outset but I didn't think my post would cause so much controversy!!
 
Cbmcts makes some valid points.

My view is that as a responsible adult on DIY, I make my own risk assessment every day without even being aware of it, don't most people ?
Who would move their horse onto a new yard without walking around the field and checking the fencing, the water troughs and for poisonous plants or potential leg breaking holes ?
If the yard looks poorly maintained, you'd look closer at the buildings and yard before becoming a client.
Surely, on a DIY yard where the livery is cheap, you don't expect 5 star customer service ? If the yard is slippery, you sweep it, you tidy away mucking out tools left lying around even if they aren't yours, because you see a potential hazard and its sensible and basic.


Cheap yards aren't necessarily poorly maintained or unsafe but if it became a legal requirement to have regular assessments and realms of policy documents, who will end up paying for this ? While the YO is busily making differently coloured folders and form filling, who will be mending the fencing or fixing the loose rug straps of a horse in the field ?

If liveries take personal responsibility to ensure that those small things are safe, then that's 95% of the problem solved. The issues that can't be easily solved without cost or expertise are deal breakers and liveries should be sensible enough to say, this isn't acceptable to me and move elsewhere.
No yard can force its clients to stay in law. We are free agents.
 
Actually I never thought that my YO would be responsible for H&S. Our yard is well maintained and I have no gripes but never thought that I would go at her if I had an accident due to falling over or whatever.

I think that very often liveries are treated poorly by YO's but more in terms of how they behave towards them. There are a lot of YO's who forget they are being paid for a service and not doing their liveries favours. Been there, hated that. Which means I am always grateful that I am on a yard where that is not the case (which does beg the question... this should be the norm not the exception!). I also appreciate that running a livery yard is a slog, and there is not much money in it if the YO is doing all above board with PAYE for staff, proper insurance etc. Liveries being slow to pay is also a massive problem so our YO made everyone pay by DD.

Swings and roundabouts...
 
horserider said:
Cheap yards aren't necessarily poorly maintained or unsafe but if it became a legal requirement to have regular assessments and realms of policy documents, who will end up paying for this ? While the YO is busily making differently coloured folders and form filling, who will be mending the fencing or fixing the loose rug straps of a horse in the field ?
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That's the whole point of doing the paperwork and putting up the signs - in reality, once the initial paperwork is done (which isn't difficult, it's only common sense) you only have to cast an eye over/update it annually which will take minutes rather than hours! BTW, maintaining fencing is part of H&S not exclusive to it - good H&S compliance is an attitude rather than an additional job. The only policy document that really matters is the one that comes with your insurance - they are the ones that you need to payout if it all goes wrong and since as an industry they are known for their reluctance to do so, it really does pay to spend that little bit of time educating yourself!

Luci07 said:
Actually I never thought that my YO would be responsible for H&S. Our yard is well maintained and I have no gripes but never thought that I would go at her if I had an accident due to falling over or whatever.
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Of course they are, it's their business and they are collecting real hard cash from clients. While you might not claim from a YO after a serious accident, many would and what if a dippy livery caused that serious accident? I thinking of something like somebody not closing a gate and letting horses out where they caused injury or damage. If a YO hasn't the basic paperwork/H&S in place, you and the other owners would be trying to claim on your individual PL policies - your ins co would pass it back to the yard policy, the yard policy insurers would be very reluctant to pay because the conditions of their policy weren't in place so back to your PL policy and so forth - all because a person hasn't done the basics of business!

Apart from the financial aspect, the bonus of somebody spending a few hours a year looking at their premise with fresh eyes is that they see and can deal with the stuff in the corner of a barn (fire/trip hazard?), the tackroom with rugs draped too near to a heater, the leaky pipe that is fine in summer or the slightly blocked gutter (it's only a little drip after all!) but as soon as it's cold it becomes a flood or an overflow and freezes making life for both the client and their horses much harder then it needs to be...plus an unnecessarily big bill for the YO. The difference between the cost of a washer and an emergency callout for a plumber is substantial. Things like loose slates can be dangerous if they come off in high wind and hit a person or animal but they are also expensive to both YO AND livery - the YO has to repair the roof but how would a livery feel if their winter's hay/tack/rugs were destroyed?

Proper H&S is all about awareness. Yes, there is some form filling involved but that is to prove that you have actually taken note and implemented the changes if needed. You would be 100% right in thinking that people should be able to do this unprompted and take personal responsibility but that requires common sense and we all know that isn't common. As a result, business people need to remind their clients to behave in a safe manner and make it as easy as possible for those clients to do so. Whether a business is profitable or not it isn't an excuse for the owner of it to be careless or play silly b**gers with other peoples welfare. JMHO.
 
Don't quote me on this, but can't a YO ask for a visit from the fire brigade to help with risk assessment, fire safety and accessibility in case of a shout ?

I know some brigades are happy to learn some basics for dealing with horses in the event of a fire or horses involved in RTA's or being hauled out of ditches etc.
 
cbmcts said:
That's the whole point of doing the paperwork and putting up the signs - in reality, once the initial paperwork is done (which isn't difficult, it's only common sense) you only have to cast an eye over/update it annually which will take minutes rather than hours! BTW, maintaining fencing is part of H&S not exclusive to it - good H&S compliance is an attitude rather than an additional job. The only policy document that really matters is the one that comes with your insurance - they are the ones that you need to payout if it all goes wrong and since as an industry they are known for their reluctance to do so, it really does pay to spend that little bit of time educating yourself!



Of course they are, it's their business and they are collecting real hard cash from clients. While you might not claim from a YO after a serious accident, many would and what if a dippy livery caused that serious accident? I thinking of something like somebody not closing a gate and letting horses out where they caused injury or damage. If a YO hasn't the basic paperwork/H&S in place, you and the other owners would be trying to claim on your individual PL policies - your ins co would pass it back to the yard policy, the yard policy insurers would be very reluctant to pay because the conditions of their policy weren't in place so back to your PL policy and so forth - all because a person hasn't done the basics of business!

Apart from the financial aspect, the bonus of somebody spending a few hours a year looking at their premise with fresh eyes is that they see and can deal with the stuff in the corner of a barn (fire/trip hazard?), the tackroom with rugs draped too near to a heater, the leaky pipe that is fine in summer or the slightly blocked gutter (it's only a little drip after all!) but as soon as it's cold it becomes a flood or an overflow and freezes making life for both the client and their horses much harder then it needs to be...plus an unnecessarily big bill for the YO. The difference between the cost of a washer and an emergency callout for a plumber is substantial. Things like loose slates can be dangerous if they come off in high wind and hit a person or animal but they are also expensive to both YO AND livery - the YO has to repair the roof but how would a livery feel if their winter's hay/tack/rugs were destroyed?

Proper H&S is all about awareness. Yes, there is some form filling involved but that is to prove that you have actually taken note and implemented the changes if needed. You would be 100% right in thinking that people should be able to do this unprompted and take personal responsibility but that requires common sense and we all know that isn't common. As a result, business people need to remind their clients to behave in a safe manner and make it as easy as possible for those clients to do so. Whether a business is profitable or not it isn't an excuse for the owner of it to be careless or play silly b**gers with other peoples welfare. JMHO.
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Gosh I read your posts on this thread, and think, thank goodness I'm not at a livery yard as the bills are sure as heck going to rocket in the near future, and thank goodness we closed our yard to DIYs. And thank goodness I first had horses in the early 80s when you learned common sense and to use your head, not expect someone to do a risk assessment in place of it.

I was looking at a dog boarding site today, £18/day - I can see livery prices going up to this rate with the H&S and insurance requirements going the way they are.

I must be old. I think its sad. I wish those that can't cope with mud/ice/dark etc in some measures, would go onto full livery or ride at riding schools, and let those that can cope get on with it, instead of pecking away and ruining things for everyone.

And by the way, remembering when I had DIYs, you don't spend a few hours a year assessing risks - its all the time. The gateway is muddy, buckets were let overflow when you weren't there and its frozen, someone backs a trailer into the gutters, reverses over a tree - hazzards occur all the time. Its so not a case of "do a tiny bit of work and fill the forms in..."
 
Any business has a duty of care to its clients and is obliged to compy with current legislation including Health and Safety. Whether a yard charges little or a lot they must all comply. In the event of their being an accident the yard owner will be vulnerable to a claim or investigation by the Health and Safety Executive. Best advice is to comply with current legal requirements rather than ignore it.
 
PeterNatt said:
Any business has a duty of care to its clients and is obliged to compy with current legislation including Health and Safety. Whether a yard charges little or a lot they must all comply. In the event of their being an accident the yard owner will be vulnerable to a claim or investigation by the Health and Safety Executive. Best advice is to comply with current legal requirements rather than ignore it.
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While I am sure you are right, tbh my advice to the YO's of cheap DIY places, is give everyone notice and keep the place as your own :(
 
Reminds me of an incident on a very professional eventing yard. Owner of a horse on full livery arrived and asked if her horse could have more haylage.

YO told me that the horse had enough haylage to see him through til the next round but the groom promised to fetch a new bale in a few minutes when she was free.
Not wanting to wait, the livery decided to fetch the bale herself and climbed onto the stack. Bale toppled over, woman fell and broke her ankle.

Woman then sues the YO because the bale fell on her.

In more sensible times, the woman would have got a slap and told off for climbing on the stack.
 
I don't want our farmer wondering about warning us there is ice near the tap, or not to trip over dangling straps from rugs drying in the haybarn, or not to trip on uneven ground. Or putting up prices to light the haybarn or paying someone to lift small bales down incase me climbing a dozen pile high makes me fall, or hardcoring muddy gateways & reconcreting drives. Or any of the rest of it. Because he then would have to increase the rent. If I lacked common sense or just wanted an easy life, then I'd be somewhere charging triple what I pay now. And I can't actually afford that for one, so I'd rather people like my yo were left alone to offer a service I can. Plus I don't see myself following h&s on a very correct yard, that was the hardest part of bhs exams! Would someone doing risk assessments let my oldie walk around loose, or my child canter her bareback to the field in a headcollar? Or let my child jump off the gate into the mud below or sit backwards on her pony with no tack & trot up & down laughing? Or me clip my oldie loose with an extension lead? I doubt it, & that type of thing is far more important than losing a wellie in the muckheap or having to grit the yard myself.
 
I can see a lot of yards closing because of H&S legislation.

For instance. I provided fire extinguishers on the yard. A while later I had a Fire Officer round to check that I was doing everything I should be. He said not to ever tell my customers to use the extinguishers in the event of a fire. The reason being that they wouldn't have had the relevant training. A for instance... If they were to get the extinguisher out of its holder and drop it on their foot I may be liable. Also I'd have to have documented checks to the extinguishers themselves carried out by a specialist.

It made me realise that in trying to make things safe you're opening a can of worms.

Sadly I can see things going that way though. I've had requests from customers such as can I put (street) lighting along the track to the fields, put Tarmac on same track, clear the snow from the farm to the fields, etc, etc. people have absolutely no idea of the feasibility and cost of such requests. I even had a mother ask me to guarantee her daughter's safety whilst seeing to her pony at the yard!
 
Some people seem to only want to do the nicest parts of horse ownership on a yard with first class facilities these days, but don't want to pay top price for (probably full) livery to get this service. Instead they expect the DIY yards to do it for next to nothing. I think people need to be more realistic. Eg. I hate poo picking and won't go to a yard where you have to do it, but I don't expect the yard to do it either! Not for what I'm paying. If the grazing got trashed because of it, I'd keep the horse in more and I wouldn't complain at the extra hay and bedding costs. I like looking after my horse and having the freedom to do so as I wish. DIY yards need to make a profit too and what's the benefit to the YO of paying out for all this extra work, even if covered by an increase in livery, when there's still no extra profit in it for them?
 
cbmcts said:
That's the whole point of doing the paperwork and putting up the signs - in reality, once the initial paperwork is done (which isn't difficult, it's only common sense) you only have to cast an eye over/update it annually which will take minutes rather than hours! BTW, maintaining fencing is part of H&S not exclusive to it - good H&S compliance is an attitude rather than an additional job. The only policy document that really matters is the one that comes with your insurance - they are the ones that you need to payout if it all goes wrong and since as an industry they are known for their reluctance to do so, it really does pay to spend that little bit of time educating yourself!



Of course they are, it's their business and they are collecting real hard cash from clients. While you might not claim from a YO after a serious accident, many would and what if a dippy livery caused that serious accident? I thinking of something like somebody not closing a gate and letting horses out where they caused injury or damage. If a YO hasn't the basic paperwork/H&S in place, you and the other owners would be trying to claim on your individual PL policies - your ins co would pass it back to the yard policy, the yard policy insurers would be very reluctant to pay because the conditions of their policy weren't in place so back to your PL policy and so forth - all because a person hasn't done the basics of business!

Apart from the financial aspect, the bonus of somebody spending a few hours a year looking at their premise with fresh eyes is that they see and can deal with the stuff in the corner of a barn (fire/trip hazard?), the tackroom with rugs draped too near to a heater, the leaky pipe that is fine in summer or the slightly blocked gutter (it's only a little drip after all!) but as soon as it's cold it becomes a flood or an overflow and freezes making life for both the client and their horses much harder then it needs to be...plus an unnecessarily big bill for the YO. The difference between the cost of a washer and an emergency callout for a plumber is substantial. Things like loose slates can be dangerous if they come off in high wind and hit a person or animal but they are also expensive to both YO AND livery - the YO has to repair the roof but how would a livery feel if their winter's hay/tack/rugs were destroyed?

Proper H&S is all about awareness. Yes, there is some form filling involved but that is to prove that you have actually taken note and implemented the changes if needed. You would be 100% right in thinking that people should be able to do this unprompted and take personal responsibility but that requires common sense and we all know that isn't common. As a result, business people need to remind their clients to behave in a safe manner and make it as easy as possible for those clients to do so. Whether a business is profitable or not it isn't an excuse for the owner of it to be careless or play silly b**gers with other peoples welfare. JMHO.
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I know my YO has full insurance to cover her and her staff plus areas where she should not have to be insured but wanted to cover herself (thinking specifically of 3rd party for livery horses - she was advised that if someone did not have the insurance, even if they told her they did, the injured party could claim off her), its just that I accept that potentially a yard is not the safest place and I need to use common sense. I didn't know that about the fire extingushers though.. we have those in place around the yard!
 
I dont think its stupid to be worried about my horse's safety because when it rains heavily the lights at the yard all go off. Sure its a DIY yard but I pay for a service - and I expect to be safe.
 
PeterNatt said:
Any business has a duty of care to its clients and is obliged to compy with current legislation including Health and Safety. Whether a yard charges little or a lot they must all comply. In the event of their being an accident the yard owner will be vulnerable to a claim or investigation by the Health and Safety Executive. Best advice is to comply with current legal requirements rather than ignore it.
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Risk assesments are esential I wrote lakesides over a four month period from start to finish.
People first fail by putting their horse first, over themselves and the clients safety first.
My risk assesment has stood up in court 3 times, it is now a pleasure to have in place, I did feel what a waste of time but now it is in place i know i am covered and my yard too.
You do not have to spend a lot of money in yard improvements it is about working practices and showing persons danger points.
PM if any one wants a nudge in the right direction.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
But if someone passed a law now setting up minimum standards for livery yards there wouldn't be the result you hope for. Instead a lot of places would shut, because regardless of the costs being covered by increased livery fees, there would be many YOs who lack either time or inclination to carry out the necessary work to bring their yard up to standard and keep it there. Even if every yard did increase its standards if necessary, many horse owners would now be priced out of the market.
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Laws already exist that set minimum standards applicable to livery yards - for example The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

Ignorance is no defence in law.
 
YorksG said:
At £35 per week you are not paying for much of a service though are you? Remember that out of that money, any lighting there is has to be paid for, water must be paid for, rates must be paid, any rent or mortgage has to be paid. Any maintenance machinery (quad, tractor whatever) must be paid for. Fencing costs to maintain, new rails, new posts, new electric tape, new energisers etc. Not a lot left out £35.
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Depends on the number of DIY liveries... if you have 40 @ £35 a week...

Okay I accept scaling, but the more you have there are economies of scale.
 
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