Health and Safety on yards

[Sixteen Hands]

Don't quote me on this, but can't a YO ask for a visit from the fire brigade to help with risk assessment, fire safety and accessibility in case of a shout ?

I know some brigades are happy to learn some basics for dealing with horses in the event of a fire or horses involved in RTA's or being hauled out of ditches etc.

They can ask and may be lucky to get a visit. The help might be with pointers with the Fire Risk Assessment - another legal requirement.

Guidance is availbe at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/14895/fsra-animals.pdf

"This guide is for use at all equine establishments, stables, livery yards and other animal establishments and for all employers, proprietors, managers, occupiers and owners. It tells you what you have to do to comply with fire safety law and it also helps you to carry out a fire risk assessment and identify the general fire precautions you need to have in place."

I agree with you - It's always a good idea to get the fire service to visit so they know where you are. Prevention is the key.

Many Brigades are now having traing in large animal rescue - pioneered in the UK by Hampshire Fire and Rescue.

 

[itiswhatitis]

Have I got this right ? the OP seems to be fishing for information to find out if there are any rules in place so that the YO can be prosecuted or fined or closed down. The OP also seems to be the suggesting that if a DIY customer falls over or has some other misfortune, the YO should be sued. With this type of mindset it will only be a matter of time before DIY yards are a thing of the past because no one in their right mind would want to deal with this type of person.

 

[lastchancer]

Have I got this right ? the OP seems to be fishing for information to find out if there are any rules in place so that the YO can be prosecuted or fined or closed down. The OP also seems to be the suggesting that if a DIY customer falls over or has some other misfortune, the YO should be sued. With this type of mindset it will only be a matter of time before DIY yards are a thing of the past because no one in their right mind would want to deal with this type of person.

I got this impression too, almost like OP's 'friend' was plotting an accident so she could sue. Just the type of person that will make cheap & cheerful yards a thing of the past.
As pedantic would say - NOA...

 

[Vinney]

Surely common sense should prevail. Small livery yards are usually part of a farm or similar and those that keep their horses there are surely partly responsible for some of the safety issues. If you cant see, get a head torch or similar. If something is left laying in the way move it to a safer place. Talk to your YO and ask if there is a way of sorting out the issues. Just moaning and not taking responsibility for some issues yourself doesnt help get things done. . Most of us need livery yards and if H&S start getting involved only the high priced places will be available and most of us wont have anywhere to keep our horses.

 

[PolarSkye]

I'm pretty sure it's been said already, but . . . you really do get what you pay for. We have security lights, an accessible muck trailer which is emptied by YO, etc., but I pay £170/month for DIY. YM salts and grits, but we also shovel and sweep away snow to avoid ice outside our stables/keep the hard standing clear and safe. There are parts of the farm that aren't lit - headtorches solve this problem.

Really, if you don't feel you are getting value for money then look for somewhere else.

P

 

[EquiGirl1]

36 pounds per week is fairly cheap for the area. I agree with the others. If you want a smart yard you'll need to pay more like 45-50 pounds per week for DIY on a more professionally run, tidier yard with facilities like lights etc.

I disagree. My old yard was at the end of a tube line, had 24/7 t/o in summer, and day turn out in winter, BHS approved yard, horse walker, lorry parking (£15pm), huge outdoor with summer shows, indoor school, all floodlit, security lights, xc jumping field, muck trailers emptied as needed, nice big stables, hacking was average, winter grazing not great, and the YO was weird and also had the default "if you have any issues leave" approach. They had a handy man on site who would repair / replace stuff normally within a day and it was staffed for a couple hours morning and afternoon to do general tidying and any extras liveries required. This was £35 a week, whole yard DIY.

OP where is your friend based? Surely people on here will be able to recommend other yards in the area?

 

[pottamus]

I think my biggest concern would be finding my horse homeless when it all goes pop financially...if they cannot even afford a few light bulbs. I would be getting Plan B ready in the background and in the meantime invest in a head torch.

 

[itiswhatitis]

I got this impression too, almost like OP's 'friend' was plotting an accident so she could sue. Just the type of person that will make cheap & cheerful yards a thing of the past.
As pedantic would say - NOA...

Does OP's friend exist ? OP stated that someone was thrown off the yard for asking for a light bulb. That doesn't seem very likely, there must have been more to it Maybe OP was the livery thrown off the yard,and it was because they were minded to sue, and is now looking for a way to get back at the YO

 

[harlequinwalk]

I have to say I'm a little surprised by some of the views on here. I pay quite a bit less than £36 in a similar area just outside London and my YO manages to provide me with working lights, a safe muck heap, secure fencing, a reasonable driveway and even an indoor school!

 

[itiswhatitis]

I have to say I'm a little surprised by some of the views on here. I pay quite a bit less than £36 in a similar area just outside London and my YO manages to provide me with working lights, a safe muck heap, secure fencing, a reasonable driveway and even an indoor school!

I expect the rent is dependent on the value of the property, particularly the land. In our area grazing land doesn't sell for less than £20,000/acre. A horse out 24hrs is going to need at least 1 acre each, or a minimum of 1/2 acre each if only turned out by day. DIY livery in our area ranges between £30 - £70 per week dependent on facilities offered, but whatever standard of facilities the cost of the land will be the same. Probably some people can afford to charge less on farms that have been in the family long enough not to have a considerable mortgage, although that doesn't mean they should, otherwise they are subsidizing their customers, why should they ? However, newer businesses will have to set their prices to allow for their borrowing. DIY liveries are renting property, in just the same way as a tenant rents a house or a shop/business. The rent for a house, shop or business is based on the value, with rates and utility bills on top. What return would an invester want for an acre of land that costs £20,000 plus the cost of a stable, use of an arena and any other facilities that are available, together with rates, water, electric, muck disposal, maintenance ? probably a lot more than any of us are paying round here.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I just think that the whole horse world does need a wake up call - back in the 70's grass livery was a fiver a week - in the 80's I paid £21 per week diy and had to pay extra for use of the school - were now in 2013 !

Everyone bangs on about it being a buisness - well if it is accept that they need to charge as a buisness.

If attitudes do carry on like this, diy yards WILL be a thing of the past.

 

[YorksG]

I just think that the whole horse world does need a wake up call - back in the 70's grass livery was a fiver a week - in the 80's I paid £21 per week diy and had to pay extra for use of the school - were now in 2013 !

Everyone bangs on about it being a buisness - well if it is accept that they need to charge as a buisness.

If attitudes do carry on like this, diy yards WILL be a thing of the past.

Absolutely agree with this, we left livery 20 years ago and it was £15 per week per horse, with almost no facilities, no school etc. The YO maintained the place and filled the water troughs. If he continues to run it (there is now a sand school) his costs will have gone up with inflation, the fuel for his tractor has risen, as have his water rates, his rates etc. etc. You cannot expect gold standard places for tin prices.

 

[Sixteen Hands]

So are there any rules around health and safety on livery yards as there is in the work place? Are yards never inspected unless BHS approved? Does the YO not have some duty of care to her clients as she is taking money from them and running a business? What happens if someone or their horse has a serious accident due to the lack of lighting? I can't believe that there's not health and safety policy for livery yards?

I sometimes feel that we lose our way in these discussions. The Original Poster asked a number of questions and I believe that they have been responded to through the subsequent posts.

But just to take them one by one again:

So are there any rules around health and safety on livery yards as there is in the work place?

Yes, the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 applies as it does to all workplaces.

Are yards never inspected unless BHS approved?

Livery yards are not routinely inspected unless part of the BHS approval scheme. They might be visited by the Local Authority in the event of a serious accident or complaint.

Does the YO not have some duty of care to her clients as she is taking money from them and running a business?

Yes, the yard owner has a duty of care to clients.

What happens if someone or their horse has a serious accident due to the lack of lighting?

There is not a stock answer to this question as it would depend entirely upon the individual circumstances.

I can't believe that there's not health and safety policy for livery yards?

The responsibility for creating individual health and safety policies rests with the yard owner/business. Guidance is available from the HSE.

 

[Sixteen Hands]

I got this impression too, almost like OP's 'friend' was plotting an accident so she could sue. Just the type of person that will make cheap & cheerful yards a thing of the past.
As pedantic would say - NOA...

The Original Post struck me as mildly strange, but then sometimes you have to take things at face value.

Sadly, what isn't reported is that many civil cases that are brought tend to fail.

Questions were asked in the original post and I hope that they have now been answered.

Hopefully "cheap and cheerful" yards will continue. Just because they are cheap and cheerful doesn't mean to say that they can't be safe.

 

[Sixteen Hands]

Surely common sense should prevail. Small livery yards are usually part of a farm or similar and those that keep their horses there are surely partly responsible for some of the safety issues. If you cant see, get a head torch or similar. If something is left laying in the way move it to a safer place. Talk to your YO and ask if there is a way of sorting out the issues. Just moaning and not taking responsibility for some issues yourself doesnt help get things done. . Most of us need livery yards and if H&S start getting involved only the high priced places will be available and most of us wont have anywhere to keep our horses.

I think that this is a very good and sensible response. I hate the words "common sense". One area of Wikipedia says
"The concept of common sense is a long-standing term, based on human experience and people's individual perceptions. Thus, common sense is different from person to person – common sense is not common.

Thus, when discussing issues of importance to projects on Wikipedia, don't consider your position, or the position that you agree with, or even a position that has consensus, to be "common sense," because it's nothing more than your perception. Your idea of "common sense" is likely to contradict someone else's idea of "common sense."

Instead of relying on "common sense" to make decisions, you should instead rely on building consensus for your position and perception, and work with other people to reach a conclusion most people can accept. By assuming your position is "common sense" and acting upon it, all you're doing is insulting the people who disagree with you."

A bit harsh, but something to consider. However, in the context used and with this audience, I'm sure that we all appreciate where you are coming from.

From a moral perspective, you are quite right that everybody has a responsibility for safety and collectively (and friendly) working towards solutions has to be the best way forward.

I often feel that we lose what health & safety is all about. It's essentially about protecting people – and in our case – horses. Unfortunately, it's often been misunderstood and misinterpreted. It's often quite convenient to raise some issues under the health & safety banner when in fact they really don't have anything to do with health & safety at all.

But let's be clear, if you run a business, health and safety isn't an option – it's a legal requirement. The Health and Safety at Work Act isn't new, it's been in place for nearly 40 years. It really doesn't need to take an inordinate amount of time or cost very much money, if any at all, to actually put in place sensible and proportionate measures to protect people and horses.

So I don't disagree with you - a collective approach is by far the best way forward not only in sorting out issues, but creating good ongoing relationships.

Maybe "Yard Rules" drawn up by all parties might be a very good way forward.

What do you think?

 

[Ellen Durow]

I just think that the whole horse world does need a wake up call - back in the 70's grass livery was a fiver a week - in the 80's I paid £21 per week diy and had to pay extra for use of the school - were now in 2013 !

Everyone bangs on about it being a buisness - well if it is accept that they need to charge as a buisness.

If attitudes do carry on like this, diy yards WILL be a thing of the past.

I'm on a big professional yard (100 liveries and 40 school horses) with fantastic facilities, all year grazing, off-road riding, a cafe and a cross country course. DIY livery is £25 per week and part and full livery are itemised according to what is done. The YO listens to us and if there is a problem it is acted upon. He is not running a charity and spends a lot on maintenace and development.

I think £36 per week for the sort of racketty hole-in-corner set-ups which seem on here to be the norm is extortionate.