Health testing

Clodagh

Clodagh

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On another site a lady is asking if she should still breed from her lab who is 1-1 elbows and 6-7 hips. Apparently as she is fox red they tend to have worse scores as they have been bred for colour. (Labs should be 0-0 elbows for breeding).
That does some up all my long held beliefs that if you breed for colour you compromise on other things. If you want your dog to go across a field and bring back a bird is it's colour even slightly relevant?
 
At my level most labs would be perfectly adequate. But on the same site a man had rather a nice fox red dog he advertises as a stud and he had a video of it retrieving a pricked duck from the other side of the field. The duck has just gone into the hedge, it is a clear and easy mark, it was nothing any half decent picker up would expect their dog to do with it's eyes closed, I hoped that wasn't a best job scenario!
 
The elbow score is a single score 0-3 with 0 being the best. If a dog gets a right elbow of 0 and a left of 1 then the score is 1. I remember reading an article by the late Malcom Willis (hip guru) who felt that a total hip score less than 15 is acceptable as breeding stock in flatcoats and our average score is lower than labs.
As far as breeding with a bitch with an elbow score of 1 I think only the owner and stud dog owner can decide. Many stud dog owners may refuse in this instance.
 
The KC's 'recommendations' for responsible breeding (not stipulation for registration of pups as in many other countries, sigh) is below the breed median, for example in my own breed, hips total 11 (no more than 8 on one hip) and for elbows 0. I don't know who in their right mind would breed from a dog with an elbow score of one if they want a pup that will need to run and jump all day, but each to their own I suppose.

When I say off colour I mean those not recognised by breed standard or a disqualifying fault. For instance in my own breed, blue, liver, white etc.
 
It's possible this is where the KC's Estimated Breeding Value tool may be of use, in that it aims to strip away anomalous environmental causes of higher scores and provide a broader picture of overall genetic risk. Bit overkill in labradors perhaps, which are numerically strong enough that there should always be better-scoring dogs available anyway, but there are breeds rare enough that excluding a dog based on a single result potentially has a big impact on future genetic diversity.

Out of curiosity are there any breeds other than sibes which have absolutely no restrictions on colour in their breed standards?
 
We have a lab with elbow problems and I myself would not buy a pup from anything but a long line of 0s. (Didn't know it was expressed as a single digit, oops!)
I see why people like fancy colours and at least dark yellow is a naturally occurring shade but why compromise health for it.
 
Whippets I think blackcob allow any colour as well.

In answer to Op.
There are no shorttage of labradors in the world...and plenty of them are already crippled with elbows and hips,partly due to poor breeding practices.

The fact that the potential breeder knows the fox reds are already known for having poor scores should speak for itself....they are been bred for colour...not to produce healthy dogs.

Colour simply is not a good excuse to ignore poor health scores.

I would advise against anyone buying pups from a tested bitch that failed the scores in the same way id advise against untested parents....and I'd think less of someone for breeding from an animal they know and have scores to prove,that it isn't up to scratch.

Elbow dysplasia can be a serious life limiting disease in a lab....it can lead to a life of pain and pain mangenent or some pretty severe surgeries to try and the animal walk without pain..or with less pain.
In a young lab its a particularily terrible diagnosis as they need to be kept on lead or rested for massive stretches of time in recovery from surgery...or to try and manage the chronic pain of the condition.
Its essentially bone misalignment leading to bone grating on bone until the body fills it with athritis to try and fuse the area....
Those hip scores are also high enough to put me off the dogs alone...but imo hip dysplasia is much easier to manage then elbow.Still a terrible thing to breed into a pup though.

Why would you want to breed that sort of structural weakness into puppies?Is having a pretty colour really worth the risk of a possible crippled dog at a young age..

Colour isnt a good enough excuse.
Theres no point health testing if you ignore the answers it gives.

Sad thing is....people will still buy her pups with or without the scores..and when the reputable stud breeders likely turn her down...chances are the person with a byb fox red stud wont..and so the chances of the pups being higher at risk then the dam rises again...but hey at least they will be a pretty colour...and when they are pulling up lame at a few months old the owners will be shocked to hear about how they now face managing or paying out to try and fix a longterm health condition....that the breeder could have predicted from the dams scores

Apologies for the rant!
 
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Agree Aru. In my discipline it is no longer permitted to compete with anything over a certain score/grading but before the ruling came in, there were dogs with severe HD/pretty much no hips/breeding bans able to do quite high level stuff until the age of about 6/7, before they started to go downhill (not that I agree with competing a dog with HD).

With the elbows, things deteriorate much quicker and I know of dogs that are pretty badly lame at a young age :(
 
Even sadder than people wanting fox reds despite the scores is the KC allowing registration of litters from parents with poor scores :(

A girl on another forum set out to breed a litter of chocolate labs with excellent scores in order to explode the myth of breeding for colour equalling unhealthy dogs. I admire her, chocolates are increasingly common/desirable. I hope she continues to produce excellent pups. We need more ethical breeders like her.
 
In other countries they would get a breeding ban and the progeny couldn't be registered. You can't ever stop people from breeding dogs together (or indeed, stop people selling them to other countries to get around it/cover their loss, sigh) but you can incentivise doing it right.
 
Indeed, CC, there will always be byb producing unhealthy litters, but the KC refusing registration might be a damned good incentive.

Saying that, it might drive breeding even more underground for so-called 'desirable' colours/breeds. Between a rock and a hard place.
 
It's a cultural thing. People now want (and can get) a dog of any breed or colour, the same way as they could get a certain type or colour of car or other posssssion.
And they put much less research into making the choice. And at the end of the day someone else will carry the can when they're fed up with it. Oops, now I'm ranting....
 
cinnamontoast said:
Rant away. I think people also aren't prepared to wait so go on scumtree and find the nearest most quickly available litter.
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I think this is a huge factor nowadays . I don't know why people aren't prepared to wait but in many cases they aren't , far rather find the nearest available litter and to hell with research , health tests etc
 
blackcob said:
...

Out of curiosity are there any breeds other than sibes which have absolutely no restrictions on colour in their breed standards?
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The breeds I know of, where all, or almost all, colours is allowed. I've used info from the Swedish Kennelklubben, which as I understand it uses FEI's breed standards (I hope I haven't missed anyone):

Afghanhound - all colours allowed.
American Akita/Great Japanese Dog - is a bit confusing, some info says all colours allowed, others says almost all colours allowed, but doesn't say which isn't allowed.
American Foxhound - all colours allowed, hound cours most common.
American Staffordshire Terrier - all colours allowed, but some might be less desirable.
Anatolian Shepherd/Coban Köpegi - all colours allowed, but fawn is most common.
Borzoi - all colours allowed, as long as the nose, and eyelid edges is black.
Bouvier des Ardennes - all colours allowed, except pure white.
Chart Polski/Polish Greyhound - all colours allowed.
Chihuahua, long coat - all colours allowed.
Chihuahua, smooth coat - all colours allowed.
Chinese Crested Dog - all colours allowed.
Drever - all colours are allowed together with white marks, but white is not allowed to be dominant.
Eurasier - all colours are allowed, except for pure white, white patches, and liver colour.
Finnish Lapphund - all colours allowed, preferably one should be dominant.
Galgo Español/Spanish Greyhound - all colours allowed, but some are more desirable.
Greenland Dog - all colours allowed, except albino.
Löwchen - all colours allowed as long as it comes with dark eyes and nose.
Mastín Español/Spanish Mastiff - all colours allowed, but some colurs are more common.
Pekingese - all colours allowed, some info excludes colours who doesn't have a black nose.
Polski Owczarek Nizinny (Polish Lowland Sheepdog) - all colours allowed.
Saluki - all colours allowed, but brindle is not desirable.
Shapendoes - usually bluegrey or black, but all colours allowed.
Shih Tzu - all colours allowed.
Siberian Husky - all colours allowed.
Tibetan Spaniels - all colours allowed, some info says all colours, as long as it comes with dark eye colour, and eyelid edges.
Tibetan Terrier - all colours allowed, except liver.
Whippet - all colours allowed.

I almost put Icelandic Sheepdog on the list - many colours allowed, one should be dominant, but e.g. a black saddle is not desirable.
 
I really do think it is the instant gratification culture, as has been said. Money can fix all things, even a crippled dog if you throw enough at it.
The KC are worried about loss of revenue I imagine, there is no breed ever that has been improved for them taking an interest.
 
All too often these days you don't see any mention of health tests on adverts selling dogs. So many people don't seem to care any more. Apparently being an unusual colour, having blue eyes, or being "mini" (ie. the runt) is much more important. Sigh. Many moons ago when my parents bred labs, they came in yellow, black & chocolate, there was no such thing as fox red (is there even now?).
 
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Fox red has always existed as an anomaly. It just wasn't favoured in the past. It can only be registered as yellow.
 
This thread reminded me of the liver GSD imported to the UK from the USA ten years ago. BVA 32:5.
On the breeder's own website it was printed that some of the progeny had scores of 4:23, 21:3 and 28:12. But yeah, lovely colour.
 
CorvusCorax said:
This thread reminded me of the liver GSD imported to the UK from the USA ten years ago. BVA 32:5.
On the breeder's own website it was printed that some of the progeny had scores of 4:23, 21:3 and 28:12. But yeah, lovely colour.
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Head desk.
 
Clodagh said:
Fox red has always existed as an anomaly. It just wasn't favoured in the past. It can only be registered as yellow.
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I guess 30 years ago we would have considered that just a dark yellow shade (apparently the KC still do), & sold them for the same price as the other health tested pups. I remember at one particularly whelping seeing a yellow which was so dark initially i thought it was chocolate but when it dried it it was just a very dark yellow. I guess these days it may have been called fox red.

Is it a fox red lab you have Clodagh - i noticed on another thread you said yours with a short tail was often mistaken for a visla?
 
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No she is just yellow, but a good buttery colour. She doesn't look anything like a vizla but people don't expect to see fit working labs with no tail. She looks like a lab to me. ☺
 
Clodagh said:
No she is just yellow, but a good buttery colour. She doesn't look anything like a vizla but people don't expect to see fit working labs with no tail. She looks like a lab to me. ☺
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I reckon "buttery" should be listed as a colour :-) I was gonna say she must be a pretty fit lab to be mistaken for a Visla! I've had folk say to me, about my solid black GSP's "Wow! Your labs are SO fit!" :-)
 
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