Heart failure

[Sparks28]

Hello. We had to say goodbye to our 29 year old horse on Sunday as he had heart failure. He had a heart murmur since we’ve had him - we’ve had him for 21 years.
Anyway, I’m struggling a bit with what happened when he was put to sleep. The vet had said it may take longer due to poor circulation and didn’t really encourage me to stay with him, though he didn’t discourage me either. I chose it stay with him as we couldn’t wait for my sister to get there - the vet said he was close to collapse.
The vet said he couldn’t sedate him, but I can’t remember why he said he couldn’t, so I wondered if anyone would know why this may be?
When I have been with pets thatve been put to sleep in the past, they’ve always just gone to sleep peacefully. This wasn't peaceful and its left me unsettled by it and having flashbacks.
The vet explained things to me, but I can’t recall much of what he said now - it’s a bit of a blur!
Im sure it all seemed to take longer tran it actually did, but he said his heart had stopped, but then his back legs started thrashing about as if he was trying to get up and his mouth opening and he neighed - o noticed the vet was holding his head down to the ground with the head collar - I’m assuming so he didn’t thrash it about?! It just looked awful that he was being restrained. There must be a reason, but I’m dwelling on these little things and it’s all making the end moments awful in my mind. I’ve convinced myself he was totally aware of it all and gasping for breath when his heart had stopped! It was awful to witness and it breaks my heart to think what he was feeling in those last moments.
would anyone have any experience of this with heart failure and being euthanised please?

 

[meleeka]

I really feel for you, it sounds awful and I’m not surprised you are having flashbacks. I can’t offer any help on why it happened like that, but Im fairly sure that without a heartbeat, his brain wouldn’t have been functioning so he wouldn’t have been aware. I hope others with proper knowledge can help. Look after yourself x

 

[Sparks28]

I really feel for you, it sounds awful and I’m not surprised you are having flashbacks. I can’t offer any help on why it happened like that, but Im fairly sure that without a heartbeat, his brain wouldn’t have been functioning so he wouldn’t have been aware. I how others with proper knowledge can help. Look after yourself x

thank you. X

 

[Sparks28]

I’m questioning myself now and wondering if this happened before he said his heart had stopped, though I’m sure it was after as I was surprised and shocked. It probably didn’t go on for long, but at the time it felt like it. I did keep covering my eyes, as I felt so helpless.
I was the only one present and so don’t want to discuss this with my family, as it will obviously upset them.

 

[Gift Horse]

I’m so sorry for your loss, I hope someone with experience of a horse in heart failure can give you some answers.

 

[brighteyes]

I'm so sorry about this understandably traumatic and distressing occurrence. This extract from the BHS website section on euthanasia might be of some help and comfort xx

"The lethal injection can only be administered by a veterinary surgeon. In some cases, the horse may be sedated beforehand. The injection consists of an overdose of anaesthetic drugs which causes the horse to gradually collapse, experiencing a rapid loss of consciousness followed by cardiovascular arrest. Occasionally the horse may take 2-3 gasps of breath following collapse and loss of consciousness. This is a common and involuntary nervous system response to the euthanasia drugs. It may take a short time (60-90 seconds) for the heart to stop, and there may be some involuntary muscle twitching or leg movement which can prove distressing to the owner. However, the horse will not be conscious during this time and is completely unaware of what is going on. The vet will monitor the horse’s pulse until it has stopped."

ETA anecdotal reports from people whose horses have collapsed and died from spontaneous heart failure often feature vocalisations, rearing up or some other form of upsetting 'behaviour' immediately preceding the actual death.

 

[Sparks28]

I’m so sorry for your loss, I hope someone with experience of a horse in heart failure can give you some answers.

Thank you x

 

[Sparks28]

I'm so sorry about this understandably traumatic and distressing occurrence. This extract from the BHS website section on euthanasia might be of some help and comfort xx

"The lethal injection can only be administered by a veterinary surgeon. In some cases, the horse may be sedated beforehand. The injection consists of an overdose of anaesthetic drugs which causes the horse to gradually collapse, experiencing a rapid loss of consciousness followed by cardiovascular arrest. Occasionally the horse may take 2-3 gasps of breath following collapse and loss of consciousness. This is a common and involuntary nervous system response to the euthanasia drugs. It may take a short time (60-90 seconds) for the heart to stop, and there may be some involuntary muscle twitching or leg movement which can prove distressing to the owner. However, the horse will not be conscious during this time and is completely unaware of what is going on. The vet will monitor the horse’s pulse until it has stopped."

ETA anecdotal reports from people whose horses have collapsed and died from spontaneous heart failure often feature vocalisations, rearing up or some other form of upsetting 'behaviour' immediately preceding the actual death.

Thank you for this.
His eyes were open, so I wonder if they would have been closed if he was unconscious?
I do recall the vet saying beforehand that it may take longer due to bad circulation and something along the lines of that it could possibly not appear as peaceful as it is when they are sedated beforehand, but he wouldn’t be in any pain.
As my sister turned up just after he had died, I didn’t want to ask the vet questions in front of her as it would've upset her.

 

[brighteyes]

Thank you for this.
His eyes were open, so I wonder if they would have been closed if he was unconscious?
I do recall the vet saying beforehand that it may take longer due to bad circulation and something along the lines of that it could possibly not appear as peaceful as it is when they are sedated beforehand, but he wouldn’t be in any pain.
As my sister turned up just after he had died, I didn’t want to ask the vet questions in front of her as it would've upset her.

No, they remain open or semi-open. It's not to do with any trauma. Please try not to think of what has to have been extremely upsetting to witness - the vet was correct with what they told you. Please hold foremost in your thoughts that you were doing the ultimate kindness for him and saw through that final act of responsibility to your boy.

 

[Sparks28]

No, they remain open or semi-open. It's not to do with any trauma. Please try not to think of what has to have been extremely upsetting to witness - the vet was correct with what they told you. Please hold foremost in your thoughts that you were doing the ultimate kindness for him and saw through that final act of responsibility to your boy.

thank you.
It was distressing to watch and I hate the thought of him suffering and it looked awful when the vet was holding his head down while his back legs were thrashing about. I’m sure the vet knew exactly what he was doing amd I think he knew it may not appear the most peaceful as I think he would rather I wasn’t present so to avoid me getting upset. He did explain beforehand and during the procedure, but it’s a bit of a blur now as the imagine of him before he died is foremost in my mind.

 

[ester]

You might find it useful to speak to friends at the end?
https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-work/welfare/our-campaigns/friends-at-the-end

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In a horse with poor circulation sedating them would have meant it would have taken longer for the drugs to do their job as you would be slowing the system down even more.

Obviously doing my job I have been at the end of many horses lives and yes quite a few do neigh or whinney, they don't just collapse and stop moving, it takes time for the body to settle down and the electric signals from the brain that have already been sent to get to their destination and stop. Some of those last signals are accepting, some are fighting and each horse is different. Within seconds of the drugs being in the horses system they would have been unconscious and would not have known a thing that was going on.

Whilst your horses death may not have been as quiet and peaceful as you envisioned it is perfectly normal and not the most pleasant thing in the world to see.

Be kind to yourself and seek help if you need it.

 

[Sparks28]

In a horse with poor circulation sedating them would have meant it would have taken longer for the drugs to do their job as you would be slowing the system down even more.

Obviously doing my job I have been at the end of many horses lives and yes quite a few do neigh or whinney, they don't just collapse and stop moving, it takes time for the body to settle down and the electric signals from the brain that have already been sent to get to their destination and stop. Some of those last signals are accepting, some are fighting and each horse is different. Within seconds of the drugs being in the horses system they wouldn't have been unconscious and would not have known a thing that was going on.

Whilst your horses death may not have been as quiet and peaceful as you envisioned it is perfectly normal and not the most pleasant thing in the world to see.

Be kind to yourself and seek help if you need it.

Thank you.
That must’ve why the vet had said he wasn’t going to sedate him - I assumed it was something to do with bad circulation due to the heart failure. It makes sense that sedating would just slow things further, which obviously isn’t ideal. I think he said something about the veins collapsing too?
He did fall over shortly after the injection, so do you think he wouldn’t have known anything from that point of falling despite what his body did and the noise he made? gosh I do hope so! That would make me feel so much happier about it all!!
After he had died, his body muscles did twitch, but I have seen this happen before so didn’t upset me as all was calm by this point.
I just recall the vet saying something about it may not work as quickly as usual and he may move about, but he wouldn’t be in pain. I can’t recall if he said anything about whether he would be aware of what was going on.
the vet seemed very confident and in control, keeping the situation as calm as possible which I guess is why he held his head tight to the floor to save more movement.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I am so sorry for your loss. It can be very traumatic watching a beloved four legged friend leave this world. I would very much imagine he knew nothing about what was going on once he fell.

Please be kind to yourself, it is a very difficult thing to do (and see), RIP beloved four legged friend. x

 

[ycbm]

Rest assured your boy knew nothing about what his body was doing. One of my horses who, because of the way he was put to sleep, can't possibly have been conscious of anything, was still "running" several minutes after his brain had been completely destroyed. Nerves were firing, but he certainly wasn't aware of it.

You did the kindest thing for your boy, and the way things went must be very hard to cope with. Be good to yourself today.
.

 

[MissTyc]

Your horse won't have known anything - sadly, it's often not very peaceful looking with horses, but it IS peaceful, for them. We're the ones that live with the memories. I have a few I could do without, but at the same time, I am 100% confident the horses in these memories had the death they deserved and the last thing they knew was kindness and then sleep. You shared your life with your horse for such a long time, it's a huge loss. I discussed this recently with a friend regarding her 30yo mare. She suddenly burst into tear the other morning and said to me "why won't she just go to sleep in the field?" and the answer is they rarely do and we owe them that final responsibility. Your horse will have lived a life most horses can only dream of, the same home for for many years. Now it's time to be kind to yourself. xx

 

[southerncomfort]

One of mine couldn't be sedated as she had such a bad leg injury that she would have collapsed under sedation.

If your vet felt that your horse was already close to collapse then he may have felt it was too risky to use sedation.

I felt it was more traumatic to witness and like you I had flashbacks for a while afterwards. However, the overwhelming feeling I had each time with mine is that they were gone before they hit the ground and I'm sure that your horse would not have known anything about it or suffered in any way.

I really hope the replies here will set your mind at rest. You did the best thing you could for your old friend. X

 

[Sparks28]

Thank you everyone for sharing your advice. I’m sorry some of you have had distressing experiences too.
I can’t remember if I mentioned that he had fluid on his lungs from the heart failure.
I really do hope he was unaware and not in any distress. In my mind I had imagined he was fighting whatever he was feeling and struggling for breath after his heart had stopped. I assume the vet was restraining him to try and stop him from thrashing around. Like I said, the vet did keep explaining things, but I was too upset to remember what he said after he fell to the floor and started kicking his legs and neighing.
i presume he fell to the floor once the drugs had got to his brain/heart?
Poor boy - he certainly couldn’t have been left as he was, as I expect he would’ve got worse very quickly.
thanks again for everyone’s reassurance. It is helping me understand that it was as normal and something that, unfortunately, some horses may do.
He did have a wonderful life - he sadly lost his companion ( same age and been together and here for 21 years) last September. He’s been remarkably fine without him. They went the right way round, as we feel the other would have struggled on his own.
We have very quiet and empty fields now, so may look into rescuing another 4 legged friend at some point. X

 

[brighteyes]

Thank you everyone for sharing your advice. I’m sorry some of you have had distressing experiences too.
I can’t remember if I mentioned that he had fluid on his lungs from the heart failure.
I really do hope he was unaware and not in any distress. In my mind I had imagined he was fighting whatever he was feeling and struggling for breath after his heart had stopped. I assume the vet was restraining him to try and stop him from thrashing around. Like I said, the vet did keep explaining things, but I was too upset to remember what he said after he fell to the floor and started kicking his legs and neighing.
i presume he fell to the floor once the drugs had got to his brain/heart?
Poor boy - he certainly couldn’t have been left as he was, as I expect he would’ve got worse very quickly.
thanks again for everyone’s reassurance. It is helping me understand that it was as normal and something that, unfortunately, some horses may do.
He did have a wonderful life - he sadly lost his companion ( same age and been together and here for 21 years) last September. He’s been remarkably fine without him. They went the right way round, as we feel the other would have struggled on his own.
We have very quiet and empty fields now, so may look into rescuing another 4 legged friend at some point. X

I hope you do and I know for certain that will be an extremely lucky one to have its future in such caring and capable hands.

As others have said be kind to yourself. The vet probably felt for you too x

 

[Birker2020]

Hello. We had to say goodbye to our 29 year old horse on Sunday as he had heart failure. He had a heart murmur since we’ve had him - we’ve had him for 21 years.
Anyway, I’m struggling a bit with what happened when he was put to sleep. The vet had said it may take longer due to poor circulation and didn’t really encourage me to stay with him, though he didn’t discourage me either. I chose it stay with him as we couldn’t wait for my sister to get there - the vet said he was close to collapse.
The vet said he couldn’t sedate him, but I can’t remember why he said he couldn’t, so I wondered if anyone would know why this may be?
When I have been with pets thatve been put to sleep in the past, they’ve always just gone to sleep peacefully. This wasn't peaceful and its left me unsettled by it and having flashbacks.
The vet explained things to me, but I can’t recall much of what he said now - it’s a bit of a blur!
Im sure it all seemed to take longer tran it actually did, but he said his heart had stopped, but then his back legs started thrashing about as if he was trying to get up and his mouth opening and he neighed - o noticed the vet was holding his head down to the ground with the head collar - I’m assuming so he didn’t thrash it about?! It just looked awful that he was being restrained. There must be a reason, but I’m dwelling on these little things and it’s all making the end moments awful in my mind. I’ve convinced myself he was totally aware of it all and gasping for breath when his heart had stopped! It was awful to witness and it breaks my heart to think what he was feeling in those last moments.
would anyone have any experience of this with heart failure and being euthanised please?

I am so sorry to hear this.

These effects are called agonal gasping but they are nothing to do with agony, so don't get upset with the name. I had a horse put down with lethal injection -I was not present as the horse had wobblers and it was considered too dangerous as he was totally uncoordinated in his movements although I was in the waiting room at the hospital whilst it was carried out.

I elected to see his body after he was put down but was not warned about any reflex movements or sounds and I found the whole experience terribly distressing to the point that it plunged me into a depression and took me a long time to get over his death. I was assured that the animal was dead but it was horrific seeing his tummy and flank flickering and hear him grunting. The first grunt coincided with my hand touching his neck as I crouched down to stroke him and this totally freaked me out as I believed he knew I was there and he was trying to communicate with me.

In the end I wrote to Horse & Rider magazine and they did a massive three page reply to me about this and explained that this grunting is called agonal gasping and is nothing to do with 'agony' in the sense we know it. It is merely a reflex action of the body shutting down and the air releasing from the lungs and vocal cords. The horse is unconscious and out of pain and totally unaware of what has happened to it. Sometimes the horse will make paddling movements with its legs.

Apparently this can take place up to ten minutes after death. I would always advise anyone to be aware this could happen or to view the body after ten minutes has eleapsed so there is little if any chance of witnessing movement.

My vet said it can take up to 60 -90 seconds for a horse to sink to the floor when injected, depending on the size and it can take up to two minutes for its heart to stop beating although it is in a state of deep unconciousness and knows nothing.

I had my 'horse of a lifetime' pts exactly four weeks today - hence my new signature. I elected to be with her with my partner but wanted to look away as I did not want to be continually playing the 'film' in my head of her falling to the ground as my mental health is fragile enough as it is.

The vet suggested (almost insistent) that my partner and I go and hide behind one of the trailers parked next to the field where she was pts although until that point we had not demonstrated any upset in front of the horse, indeed the last photo taken a few minutes before pts are of us with smiles on our faces as we didn't want her to know what was happening (see below). We couldn't hold it in anymore and ended up sobbing before she was gone (much to my total annoyance) but she could not see us and I doubt she would have cared as she'd had an injection to sedate her (not much just a little). We heard a little snort and heard her fall to the ground. After about half a minute I looked and could see her on the grass unmoving.

We called out to the vet to ask if she was gone went up to her and the vet touched her eye and it flickered and said not just yet but confirmed what I knew that she was unconcious (his eye flickered but because I knew to expect this it didn't freak me out like the movements I'd experienced with Rommy). When I touched her eye it didn't move and I kissed it and the gap between her ear and eye. I told the vet what had happened with the previous horse (I was in shock and have strange conversations) and felt he could hear me as he moved and made a noise twice when I touched him, but he said it was purely coincidence and it wasn't linked with me touching him at all).

All in all it was a positive, gentle and good experience (as much as pts a horse you have had for 17 years can be).

It really annoys me that the vets don't tell clients before euthanasia that there is a chance of agonal gasping after a horse is pts. Believe me when I say that a horse is dead before it hits the ground with gun and unconcious before it hits the ground with lethal injection and knows nothing.

I am so sorry you had such a crap experience. I think you should speak to your vet about it.

 

[Goldenstar]

Poor circulation does make euthanasia by injection slower , I experienced this earlier this year with an old dog .
Its upsetting and really feel for you it took me a while to come to terms with Pearls departure of course with a dog i just sat on the floor and held her until it was done .
For a horse I don’t do injections unless forced by circumstances .
In time you will come to terms with it I promise you will .

 

[Birker2020]

I discussed this recently with a friend regarding her 30yo mare. She suddenly burst into tear the other morning and said to me "why won't she just go to sleep in the field?" and the answer is they rarely do and we owe them that final responsibility. xx

I said the very same to my friend.

 

[SEL]

OP I'm very sorry that must have been so distressing. I had an 18 month colt die in my arms a few years ago (vet was on way back - he went downhill quickly). Although I know he was already gone when he was having spasms it really shocked me. Even if you know it can happen it's still hard to experience.

I hope you can put it behind you and know you made the best decision for your horse - hang into the good memories xx

 

[scats]

Most vets are good at explaining what happens afterwards. I’ve had several put to sleep and two really twitched and moved quite a lot. Tobi looked like he was running on the ground, but I knew he was totally out of it. I imagine it would be a bit upsetting if you weren’t aware that could happen. Whereas Diva went that fast and that quickly without even one movement once she hit the ground. So much so that the vet allowed me to kneel down at her neck and hold her as she passed. I suppose they are all so different.
Take care xx