Heart murmur?

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Acolyte

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Yes I know this should be in veterinary, but thought more people might see it in New Lounge?!

I might be looking at a horse (with a view to buying it) which has a heart murmur, which is detectable at rest. No-one really seems to be able to tell me what the implications of this might be - I want to event it at PN max, so relatively speaking it wouldn't be doing that much

I assume it would fail the vetting and also I would not be able to insure it - has anyone any experience/observations please?
 
I know a very well known JRN horse that has a heart murmur. Its never caused a prob for him, yes its excluded from insurance, but he was sold for a very tidy sum about 5mnths ago, so obviously wasnt that big a deal in the vetting.
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I'm not an expert but just my experience. I went along with a friend who was having a horse vetted for PN/N eventing. The horse had a heart murmer at rest - the vet had it trotted up straight away and it still had a murmer then had it lunged - as it didn't go away with exercise he stopped the vetting immediately and failed the horse. Said it was not suitable for eventing as it could potentially drop dead!
They apparantly grade them 1-5 according to seriousness.
I believe that if they have one at rest and it goes away when exercised it is not as serious. If you are going to have this horse vetted I would suggest you ask your vet to do this bit first to save you going any further if it is bad.
 
I used to schoola a horse with a slight heart murmer. it never affected him but we were only schooling and occasionally jumping. I personally wouldnt have done anymore with him as I didnt want to put any more pressure on his heart.
 
Without knowing the implications of the murmur, it really does have a question mark over it's future as an eventer at any level. Is the horse going really cheap or being sold with this problem reflecting the price?
I personally would not even consider buying it for any activity because you will have problems insuring it, whilst you will get cover for it, the horses heart and any problems in association with it's murmur will be excluded from the policy.
What do the current owners do with the horse?
 
It depends on what sort of heart murmur it is...

My arab has a diastolic heart murmur... he's had it all his life and it didn't stop him doing many 100 mile endurance races, the Golden Horse Shoe, representing GB and being the National Champion when he was 11 years old. He was at the top of his game for a long time. He's 18 years old now and though not competing at top level any more he's still going strong.

Compared to all that a bit of PN eventing isn't that strenuous! But as I said it does depend on the type of murmur so get your vet to check it out.
 
Miss Delia has a heart murmur following a virus and she was 18 at the time. It was noisy rather than serious. However, the one thing the vet recommended not to do anymore was XC. I could still hunt - as with the Puckeridge you rarely have long gallops and he told me to let her pull up if she wanted to.

It never effected her, and whilst we still had good gallops and did a tiny bit of XC for fun, we never competed again as there was the potential for her to collapse if put under a lot of fast pressure work.

If I wanted a happy hack or all rounder apart from XC I would consider a light murmur but not if I wanted to event at any level.
 
It depends on the type of murmour. Some murmours are there at birth, cause no problems and don't degenerate with age. Others appear in later life and are prone to getting progressively worse over time. Your vet should easily be able to tell you what type of murmour and the prognosis of this (as someone above said, I believe they are graded).

My horse was born with his and is classed as the harmless kind that doesn't get worse. I'm fortunate enough to have full history on the horse and he has passed three 5 star vettings (including the one I had on him). He spent most of the last 6 years as an eventer and it's never caused him any issues.

That being said, another competition pony at the yard Im at has recently been discovered to have one (which wasn't there before) and it's causing a decent amount of concern from the vet.

Im no vet... I dont understand the ins and outs of the different types of murmors but they are definitly classified differently with some being harmless and others not so. Either way, your vet should be able to advise!
 
Yes it will fail a vetting on this and will be excluded on insurance, but heart murmurs come in different grades etc. so worth speaking to both your vet and theirs, they will most likely have already investigated the severity of the murmur.
I personally wouldn't dismiss the horse straight off but I would expect the horse to have a proven record in the discipline for which I was buying and to be significantly cheaper
 
definatly do not but a horse with a heart murmer with a view to event, i think anyone that does so is just plane mad! I know there are stories of horses carrying on regardless, but there are also stories of horses falling down dead mid gallop- just not worth the risk if you ask me! Dont touch with a barg pole, sorry!!
 
My boy had slight Heart murmur which is hard to pick up by Vet all his life and he was a quite sucessful National Hunt race horse.... he's now happy hunter and 17 years old. He get tested every single year (along with booster) to make sure it doesn't get worse.
But if you are concerned, don't touch it... it's better to walk away than wondering what will happen if....
 
I had a new vet to be 20 year old who tested her heart and she told me she had a significant murmour.

I considered retiring her and hardly rode her because of it. Months later, my regular vet came and I asked him to test her heart, my telling him about the previous one.

Clean as a whistle, I then told him the story and he could'nt believe it. He spent an hour doing the works with her, nothing.

If you want to make absolute sure, I would get another vet out, just in case.
 
As has been said, it would fail the vetting. Have had a vet fail one before on a murmur.

If you're very keen on the horse then perhaps it would be worth getting a cardiologist out. If someone's not specially trained (i.e. vet) then the heart problem could easily be misdiagnosed.
 
IntroEventer
i'm getting more and more worried....
I really would not touch with barge pole, unless horses is currently competeting at this level NOW!!!or Even higher and has correct paper has been regualry checked and i mean by a 'heart vet' etc
i really speaking from experience hear.....
Nothing worst than buying a horse (with a know serious mental condition), which are going to need to put alot of time and money into training. Then a week before stuff to have to withdraw from comps and NEVER be able to compete
Jacko is so right it could easily drop death on top of you!!!!! and top it off you never get horse insured, is it worth the time and effort
There are lots of nice competetion horses out there... the right will find you
 
Sorry - am I missing something - has this horse got a heart murmur and a serious mental condition?

I had a horse with a heart murmur - it went to a cardiologist to be checked out thoroughly before I bought him - the vet had failed him initially but the cardiologist passed him as totally fit and healthy - there are acceptable heart murmurs and non acceptable ones. his was totally acceptable and we therefore had a pass for a 5 stage vetting and he was insured with no problem whatsoever.

Introeventer - PM me I might know the horse you are thinking of buying.
 
Heart murmurs range from not a big deal to a huge deal - the way I look at it is veterinary medicine is not as precise as human medicine. I would not trust a horse that had one, as finding myself on top of 1200lbs that is going tumbling at Vo of 30 mph would suck. There are plenty of good healthy horses out there.
 
Phew, thanks everyone, thought this might prompt a few replies! FYI (should have said before) the horse is only 5 and has no competition experience yet. I do fully appreciate that, as some replies say, horses can compete very well with heart murmurs and have no problems, but I think on balance I will say no to even trying it - I'm far too willing to let my (healthy!) heart rule my head, and fall in love with something and want to buy it. The replies about the potential for the horse to have a heart attack when exercising at speed are enough for me.

Thanks again for all your replies, I just wanted to make sure that I was making the right decision (I only have experience and knowledge about heart murmurs in dogs, not the same thing at all!) - TBH I did wonder why it had a heart murmur so young. On to the next possibility I guess!
 
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