Heels down, toes in? toes out?? Does it matter and why?

[Elsbells]

I have like so many of us my age(50), have had few if any lessons as a child, so basically I am a self taught, though confident rider(ride with my mind)

On a hack the other day with a friend, she commented as to the fact that although I appear have a good position and a balanced seat, my toes turn out?

I have some long lost memory of being told to ride like this and I can't change it now, indeed why should I?

I'm guessing it's something to do with getting caught up or sommat? Anyone know why??

 

[lassiesuca]

Well IMO the way we ride is crucial as to the way our horses go. There's nothing more annoying than when I hear someone say ''I don't care if look *****, as long as my horse is working in an outline'' and then sticks a pair of draw reins on their horse!

The way we ride is crucial as to the way our horses move and work. If we're not balanced, it's hard for our horses to balance, have you ever tried carrying a child on your shoulders who is constantly moving and fidgeting! It's very frustrating lol!

Feet and toes is something which comes up quite a lot. Several years ago, I eventually left the riding school and embarked on a journey to discover classical riding and never looked back since (well sometimes I do to realise how stoooooopid I was!) but I was in your typical BHS ''Elbows in, kick kick kick... halt... 20 m circle'' establishment and I hated it. I felt I never learnt anything because I felt I never improved, I was just having instructions thrown at me and not taught how to ride, I can honestly say in the past 2 and a half years, I've learnt more than I have in the 7 years spent at riding schools!


I prefer riding long- because I like a little bend in my knee but like my leg by my horses side so I can push the right buttons, I also find it's easier to balance, than having ridiculously short stirrups which take me leg out of alignment! But if your stirrups are too long, I often find that you end up bouncing all over the show!

Feet shouldn't be forced into a position- nothing worse than seeing people ramming their heels down and toes in and then gripping with their upper leg and unbalancing themselves!

I'll send you a link to a great video from a wonderful trainer friend of mine, who can word it and show it far more coherently than I!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6PTs1XPAug

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

I ride with my heels down and my toes slightly out, my horse goes well and easily in an outline and I've never used a set of draw reins in my life never will either

 

[Oberon]

I went to Camp recently and had flat lessons with a brill dressage bloke, Trevor English.

He said I needed to do two things to improve.

1) Head up - self explanatory really.

2)Toes in.

He said if I keep my toes in, it will secure and anchor my lower leg, keep it still (I tend to 'pedal' in trot!) and re-engage my seat.

I have to say, such a simple couple of things has made all the difference!

He also told me to do a little exercise each time I ride to help stretch me into being able to ride toe in.

Stand up in your stirrups and turn both toes extreme left for ten seconds, then right. Repeat each time you ride for a few weeks.....

 

[Miss L Toe]

Toes should be in else the knees will also be out and you will flop about. Best thing I was ever told was to flatten my thighs on the saddle by lifting my lower muscle from the rear, and dropping on to the saddle, all good riders have flat inner thighs.

 

[Elsbells]

Ahhhhhhh, I see now. Thanks everyone.........I'll try.

 

[Foxhunter49]

No one has given the real reason for keeping your toes in!

I was taught toes and knees in (or forward) it does not mean that you are gripping with you knees but that they are against the saddle and the thighs flat.
Thighs in conjunction with the seat should be used to slow a horse down. If the toe and knee are out then you cannot use your thighs and if you try will grip up with the lower leg.

Toes forward means that you are using the inside of your leg against its side - there should be no grease on the outer seam/side of your boots.

It also means that if anything untoward happens you can easily grip with thigh and knee to keep you in the plate!

A very simple exercise to do to get your toe forward is, when you are sat on the horse put your hand under your thigh from behind and lift your leg away from the saddle and pull all the flubber to the back. You will find it quite strange the difference in the feel and it will make your toe point forward. It will not last for long but keep doing it throughout your rides and it will become the natural way for your thigh to lie.

I agree that with animals the more you learn the more you know there is to learn!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I ride with my toes out fractionally and there is a very good reason why this habbit formed - I ride shetlands. I am slightly too tall to ride shetlands and if I didn't turn my toes out slightly I would end up rubbing the tops of their front legs.

I only do this when riding "long" and schooling. When I am galloping the racehorses, if anything, my toes turn in slightly. I'll see if I can find a pic of both to show what I mean.

ETA. Pics. Looking at them I don't turn my toes in as such when galloping, it obviosuly just looks like it as they are more in than when I ride long.

Normal

Galloping

 

[Honey08]

The heals down thing is an easy one - feel your calf muscle when your leg is relaxed - its quite soft. Now put your heal down and feel it - it is rock solid therefore it is much more effective as an aid to the horse.

As for the toes in thing - I find it is much harder for those of us with well rounded legs, rather than the supermodels! I've never really remembered a reason why! I guess that, again, it keeps that strong muscle against the horse's side...

 

[Hippona]

I was under the impression that feet should rest in the stirrups fairly 'flat' - not 'heels down' unless you need to secure your lower leg for jumping or XC work....pushing heels down can tend to thrust your lower leg forward.....

 

[YasandCrystal]

Just to throw in a cat amongst.............western riders ride toes out!

 

[Tnavas]

Why do people assume that they 'invented' the correct way to ride?

The classical position has been taught for centuries and is not a new way to ride at all.

OP you were unlucky to have been in a centre that taught you badly - please don't knock the BHS because of it. There are many BHS centres that will teach you correctly in a classical manner.

In all the riders conformation and the width of the horse dictate how we can sit in the saddle. Put a large rider on a wide horse and it is nigh near impossible to have them ride with toes pointing to the front. Put a slim person on a narrow horse and yes - you can get their position perfect.

For flat work, the whole leg needs to be soft to enable the rider to use the leg with precision and finnesse. A heel too far down will stiffen the leg forcing the leg off the side of the horse, making leg aids ineffectual - if they actually reach the horse - one rider I used to teach had a textbook position but found even the most free moving horse difficult to ride. She'd be puffing away on a horse I knew to be very responsive. I got her to lift her heel a little and bingo, her leg no soft was able to be held softly on her horse and the horse started to move easily for her.

So long as the heel is level or slightly below the toe then the rider is fine.

Toes in toes out! So long as they aren't being used to indicate the direction you plan to turn, slightly out is preferable to being forced inwards. Again the aim is to provide stability without tension.

 

[JoJo_]

I hate my feet. I walk penguin-ish with my toes turned out. Always have since I was little and i'm sure my legs have grown wrong cuz when I stand with my feet straight, my knees turn in slightly. So when i'm in the saddle and put my toes straight I feel like I grip with the knee. My instructor reckons it comes from my hip and will be a difficult thing to correct now. I hate seeing pics especially when i'm jumping cuz all I notice is my toes stuck out. I also never wear spurs because of this problem.

 

[Jade&Syrah]

I know people who have hurrendous positions yet they can get a tune out of a rocking horse. And then I know people who have perfect positions but that's all they know. I think its about what you know and how to get a horse to move and work correctly more than position. However position does affect the balance and the weight of the rider.

 

[kerilli]

i agree with Evelyn.
also, if 'toes in' is enforced too early, many riders will grip with the knees for security, raising their centre of gravity and making themselves less secure. if necessary i teach with knees released away from saddle and weight dropping into heels until that is a habit, then bring knees back to saddle.
in a recent thread someone posted something very interesting about toes-in being easier for men because of the shape of their pelvis, and more difficult for women. i'd like to know more about that theory tbh.
i think toes-out for xc is fine but for flatwork toes-in as much as possible.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I though OP had no formal lessons, did not see her knocking the BHS, i must have missed something.
The BHS teach beginners not to grip as they need to relax and use balance in order to progress though trot and canter, but they are in a school and on school ponies.
When we progress to hacking out on a flighty filly, then a bit of grip goes a long way!
For schooling a horse and riding in the classic dressage position, i was taught to imagine a line down the back and down to the heels., the rider sits up straight and looks though the horses's ears.
If one has sticky out feet, maybe a western horse is the answer, the saddle itself holds the riders seat in position, but I am sure heels are definitely down!

 

[YasandCrystal]

I think we have to be honest and realise that not everyone is born to be in the saddle. I have a friend who even after years of lessons at riding schools has no balance whatsoever.

She balances with her hands and sorry if you are REALLY interested in a sport - just watch other people - watch the experts - see how lightly they ride how effortless they make everything seem.

So no I agree there are good and bad instructors from all walks - one cannot just knock the BHS. You can teach someone to teach but that doesn't make them good. Same for all trades/professions etc. Why are there poor farriers? Theyhave all passed their years of training???!!! But if you want to learn a sport I say watch others - that's the best teaching in the world - emulate the best!

 

[Ibblebibble]

for those of us over a certain age it was BHS or nothing! they were the only available option , if there were trainers out there with different ideas they were well under the radar
All i can remember about riding lessons as a child was elbows in heels down toes in, it was like a chant that followed us round the school, occasionally broken by a 'don't let toffee do that to freddie'
Now i don't wish to knock the bhs but it always just felt more about how we looked on the pony rather than how effective we were. i don't really feel like i learnt to actually ride rather than look like a cute passenger until i got to my teens and went to a slightly less BHS than it should have been school The horses weren't always the best behaved so there was no time for the BHS chant lol, there was just a lot of 'push him on he'll stop doing that once you get him moving forward!!'

 

[Amaranta]

I though OP had no formal lessons, did not see her knocking the BHS, i must have missed something.
The BHS teach beginners not to grip as they need to relax and use balance in order to progress though trot and canter, but they are in a school and on school ponies.
When we progress to hacking out on a flighty filly, then a bit of grip goes a long way!
For schooling a horse and riding in the classic dressage position, i was taught to imagine a line down the back and down to the heels., the rider sits up straight and looks though the horses's ears.
If one has sticky out feet, maybe a western horse is the answer, the saddle itself holds the riders seat in position, but I am sure heels are definitely down!

The 'line' you mention goes from the ear to shoulder to elbow to heel NOT down the back - this would put your leg far too far back and could make a rider sit on his/her fork.

I think people have confused putting your weight through your heels with 'heels down' and then force the heel down accordingly which in turn pushes the leg too far forward. Toes should not be in either as this would cause the rider to grip with the knee which actually makes your seat less secure.

 

[1stclassalan]

I learned to ride by watching cowboy films and then trying to sit on cows - I was pursued by an irate cowman across several fields before giving him the slip by laying doggo under a hedge. I later generated to a delapidated hell hole where an old lady kept three ponies of disparate disposition - one would try to kill you in every unguarded moment, one would refuse to do anything and a dun that was the most resigned and patient equine to ever live - I can well remember him looking me in the eye after another jogging dismount as if to say - "when the hell are you going to get rising trot?"

After a year or so - I could ride like a cossack and even took the killer out vaulting and used to love the looks of terror on the faces of others as we careered about the countryside - I could still pick things up from the ground without dismounting at 35 because of my wild upbringing.

I then discovered Dressage and at Fulmer International School of Equitation no less and submitted myself to learning all over again from scratch - as far as I can see - the classic style has no rhyme or reason behind it other than it looks good to other Horseys - showing off that you can do it - is admittance to a special club or at least it was before every man and his dog was doing it!

I suffered for my art! I started with an ancient broken leg, ankle and knee injury and for the first few lunge lessons I thought the next would surely kill me but I Percy-Veered and to this day me tootsies bend inwards despite not riding for ten years. I was awefully proud of what I call "riding muscles" in my lower legs and it's hardly surprising I developed them because writing conservatively I reckon that I spent well over 10,000 hours on just one horse let alone all the others.

I am now a committed Horsey snob and will critisize the most trivial misdemeanors - just like everyone else!!!

The video is very good - seen many of them - I was with the instructor right up till she mentioned riders with large thighs - they should be made to go on crash diets or taken to the muck heap and shot.

Horses were most intended for beautifully formed women to ride so that they seem even more elegant than they already are - the rest are for the few blokes who ride so they can chase the women on something that can catch them. Hahaha.

 

[Kaylum]

Just to throw in a cat amongst.............western riders ride toes out!

When I was taught to ride western your legs stay away from the horses side and its done by the weight of your seat. You want to go fast lean forward slightly and you want to slow down lean back slightly. The best thing is they neck rein so you have more control without having to even touch the horses side or even its mouth.

I also found western trained horses a lot more responsive than english trained ones as you are not hauling then around in the mouth. My clyde would neck rein to a certain extent.

 

[Tnavas]

I'm a BHS instructor and used to have a large riding school in New Zealand. All my ponies and horses were chosen by their ability to be free moving and responsive.

My belief is that a rider should be able to learn to sit correctly from day one, be taught the aids for what is required and the pony to give a response. This taught my riders to sit still, quiet and tidy enabled them to keep their balance throughout the movements. They learnt to look good! they progressed fast and because they were well balanced were able to ride a more difficult or less responsive person without looking like a windmill.

Interestingly we rarely had riders fall off despite the ponies all being free moving. We had one horse - bless him - who was a real smarty and we had to develop changing codes so that the rider actually had a chance to apply the aids. When you have the habit of saying 'and' before the instruction or riders name - if he was in the front of the rider he imediately did the exercise. It worked well though at times as when you had a rider a bit wary of going into canter all you had to do was say 'and canter' and he would go off in a lovely steady - "I'll look after you canter"

 

[YasandCrystal]

Riding styles is such an emotive subject isn't it just? The point to me is that the important things are balance and clear consistent aids to the horse - nice kind hands.

I am a 'learnt in the 70's' rider and I do find it so foreign to have a really good contact. Riders of my day rode with long reins and seemingly no collection whatsoever. Paul and Alwin Schockemohle had these really awesome horses all collected like coiled springs, but the Harvey Smiths and David Broomes had giraffes by comparison. Showjumping courses have changed to accomodate and challenge the changes in riding styles, with such technical tracks now.

Today I like to ride my horse so she uses her back and has an active hindleg, I appreciate that that not only looks pleasing but is better for her physically, yet I don't expect to have to continually use strong leg - that to me is just hard work and not fun. Some friends ride their horses continually with a leg of iron - clamped around their horse - certainly not my bag. So we can all beg to differ. Horses can perform beautifully with varying aids - you just need to look at Lee Pearson's horse, who wouldn't perform like that for another rider. It's consistency and understanding and in the case of shows 'looking the part the judge wants to see'. It's no good doing an 'Annette Lewis' in the dressage arena, you would win no points for style!

 

[Queenbee]

I know people who have hurrendous positions yet they can get a tune out of a rocking horse. And then I know people who have perfect positions but that's all they know. I think its about what you know and how to get a horse to move and work correctly more than position. However position does affect the balance and the weight of the rider.

what she said ^^^

just look at some of the dressage riders, some of them look like sacks of spuds but their horses just look divine

Also look at mary king, who has ever been taught to ride with your hand at your hips whilst bombing around the xc course? Have you ever tried it???!!! But she does it and she rides with such expertise, it just looks natural!

 

[Miss L Toe]

I have to admit I am so old I never had lessons, just told "if you can catch it you can ride it". later on I was given a few lessons on the lead rein until i could post. Those were the days! We used to ride plough horses, cart horses, ponies in someones field, spent one summer "breaking" fifty Shetlands for ten shilling a shot. I used to ride from Mount Vernon to Hamilton [now the M8] to take the starter's horse to the races.
I only remember falling off once, I was upside down on my favourite horse, trying to do a cowboy trick which went a bit haywire.
I had a lesson two years ago because I was re-backing my youngster and he had not been ridden for four months, so i needed a second person just in case, all went well until the Instructor said "collect him", well if I knew how to do that I would be doing it already, explain please!
This lack of lessons did not halt stop me working as a rider or training racehorses, though I would have been a much better rider had I had proper lessons, but I still don't do much schooling as I find it totally boring, and note how many horses have back problems and are lame or whatever after years of collection. I cannot stand to watch girls [BHS professional] hauling on horses mouths, it is awful

 

[tallyho!]

I don't think heels down is that important, if you get everything else right up above, the toes will follow chill out, relax and enjoy life. You might get hit by a bus tomorrow.

It only matters if someone else thinks it does...

 

[councillor]

I feel the heels down/ up thing is important, but not because it is aesthetically pleasing. The height of your heel generally goes hand in hand with the angle of your pelvis, and the angle of your pelvis dictates the angle of your upper body.
If a riders heels are up then I tend to notice that it makes the rider grip slightly with the knee, the lower leg swings back, making it less effective and secure, this in turn closes the pelvis, resulting in the seat loosing depth and capability to absorb the movement, this in turn tends to make the rider tip in front of the movement and often look down, this results in the horse and rider no longer being in a harmonious balance and often a horse like this will fall slightly behind the leg then in an attempt to get the horse back in front of the leg a lot of "busy" riding takes place.
However you also get the other end of the scale. Heels forced down, this pushes the lower leg forward onto the shoulder, making this position of the leg of little effect. Doing this tilts the angle of the pelvis to open putting the rider behind the movement and making the weight of the rider move onto the back of the saddle as the shoulders, and upper body weight moves back. This tends to block the rider from being able to absorb the movement as the pelvis is rigid in this angle and will make the rider look like they are either "thrusting" not nice to see, or they do the "chicken" head bob while in sitting trot. Often horses ridden this way are never truly connected, as the horse will hollow its back in an attempt to deal with the riders balance. I also find riders in this position will often have (in my opinion) slightly hard hands.
I like a level or slightly lower heel, I talk about the angle of the pelvis a great deal as I feel to learn to ride with the seat and core by being established through the pelvis is the correct foundations to perfecting your own correct, balanced and harmonious style of riding.
This is just my opinion from years of watching other much better riders than myself.

 

[Headpiece]

The best thing i ever did was give up on "heels down and toes it" and i tryed to keep it up for 20 years +. When riding it made my leg stiff against the horse, and would ache for some time after.

Now I ride with my heel the same as my toes, toes slightly out, it feels natural and unforced, and the horses go much softer as I can follow the movement and give an aid when needed.

 

[tallyho!]

Yes I get that but I still think toes are not the be-all and end-all of riding.

My personal opinion is that we are asking the horse to do the unnatural thing of carrying us where we please. The least we can do is teach it to carry us well in a way that helps the horse - which is why I think classical is best. We need to be as supple as the horse and not impede it's movements. To do that one must relax and be soft and still whilst guiding the horse left, right, forward and back. As long as we can do that effectively, what your toes do is of no consequence - it's the contact your lower leg provides and also the guidance in your seat - which in turn will put your toes exactly where they should be.

Riding shouldn't be done with a set list of do's and don'ts. Guidance from a good teacher definitely - but it should be fluid and sympathetic. The worst riders are those who think about what others think of their riding... the best are those who think about what the HORSE thinks of their riding.

A good teacher will make you think of the horse first.

 

[tallyho!]

The best thing i ever did was give up on "heels down and toes it" and i tryed to keep it up for 20 years +. When riding it made my leg stiff against the horse, and would ache for some time after.

Now I ride with my heel the same as my toes, toes slightly out, it feels natural and unforced, and the horses go much softer as I can follow the movement and give an aid when needed.

IMO quite perfect