Height certificates - have your say!

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Lynn Russell’s condemnation of annual height certificates (in H&H news, 2 July) is the latest controversy over measurement in showing and comes just weeks after the showing world was rocked by allegations that 90 horses and ponies measured out.
For an upcoming feature in H&H, we’d love to know your views on measurement. Is the current system working? How could it be made better? Are stories of horses and ponies measuring out causing real damage to showing’s reputation?
We look forward to hearing your thoughts below or by email to karen_spinner@ipcmedia.com
 
Hi.
Haven't seen Lynn Russells comments as it's not the 2nd July yet, but can I draw your attention to the thread below which contains some quite interesting comments.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...rue#Post4508987

I still cannot believe that ANYONE involved with the world of showing (or show jumping ponies come to that) can be genuinely shocked by this news. That isn't to say that all producers (amateur or professional) knowingly have overheight horses - I'm sure there are many who don't, but when you're showing something that's bang up to height, & it's being dwarfed by another entrant it's not that hard to work out !!
I'm more than happy to comment further - please PM me if I can be of help.
 
I don't think you are accurate saying 90 horses and ponies have been measured out - I think the accusation is that a rogue vet has inaccurately measured them for whatever reason - with anecdotal evidence to say that owners have been paying a premium for the service.

Only a handful have been represented for re-measuring - none of this group has measured in as far as I know - some owners have thrown in the towel and accepted their animal is overheight and put them up a class, whilst others are arguing the rights and wrongs until they are blue in the face. They must think we are all stupid! It's nothing new, it's just on a bigger scale - for years there have been people who take horses and ponies for measuring for a fee.

It will be a great injustice if their cheating and then whingeing allows them to compete at RIHS.
 
The "90 horses /ponies measured out' was a direct quote from last weeks H & H so if there is an inaccuracy it is theirs not mine!! It would seem the reason that only a handful have been presented for remeasuring is that the majority of those recalled are fully aware that they would not measure independently !!
 
Well the current system doesn't work & hasn't for a while.

How about if those animals who measured within 1cm for an annual had to be re-presented to a different vet after six months, & life / full height certs were issued after two measurements by different vets once the horse was aged 7 or above?
Yes it would cost owners (like me) more, but it would at least make the system more self policed with more vets involved per animal. Regardless of whether or not the horse being in 'show ring' condition does affect height, the fact that horses that are still growing will do so in the spring definitely does !!
Whilst the show ring condition explanation is frequently used for the over height show horse/pony it doesn't explain all the BSJA ponies who have failed to remeasure, & by the very nature of their job aren't in show ring condition !

I do agree with Davina Whitman - the horse or pony should be presented in the ring at the correct height - if it has gone over since measurement then the animal no longer fits the class criteria - regardless of what it may have measured in January if that class is in June.
 
Sorry Zebedee - I agree with everything you say I was correcting the initial post as I'm a bit anal about accuracy! I've also not quite got the hang of this forum as I was surprised to see your name at the top of my post!

The original H&H report states "Allegations that up to 90 horses and ponies were measured short by a vet ..."
 
I also think the objection system is wrong - I think generally when people first start showing they want to fit in and would never rock the boat by complaining - I certainly felt like that.

As a family we soon started making friends (sometimes I have to remind myself it is meant to be social and fun!) and again I couldn't bring myself to complain.

As you know under the current objection system you have to have an animal in the same class to object against one - these are usually people who have grown up with your own family and have become friends.

I really think this restriction should be removed and people should be able to put their money down against any animal. I also think that people would then not necessarily be making any personal gain from the complaint and it would be more likely to be for the right reasons.
 
Horses / ponies which are obviously overheight are a real bugbear of mine - as you can probably tell !!

Judges hide behind the height certs - I once asked a panel judge who is also a friend why they'd put this HUGE (but admittedly very beautiful) cob at the top of the line. Their response was 'If it's got a height certificate who am I to argue?'
 
What is cheesing me off at the moment is the crap the owners are coming out with.

I hope this will all shake up the system - and I do think judges bear some responsibility for the current state. But when there are judges who also take advantage of this "measuring service" what hope have we got?
 
It is time there was a shake up of this rule IMO. As long as I can remember there have been rumblings about over height horses/ponies in both showing and SJ and like Noseygit states no one is prepared to say anything, for whatever reason.
I have "suffered" in my long distant past. I had a superb 15.2 who was just perfect for small Hunter classes but he was way smaller than the rest of the horses in the class.
I too just shut up and "put up".
 
Judges have a lot to answer for over this. If they didn't say things like "your horse is a bit small" when the class has a height range then people wouldn't be so obsessed in having a horse that is up to (i.e.over) height. I once queried this with a judge at a showing seminar and they said they wanted the horses to be up to height. Of course in jumping classes there is another angle because height may confer an athletic advantage
 
My daughter regularly competed against a 'very full up' 14.2 at bsja, it had a lhc which was a load of bull. Measuring a horse at the beginning of the year and then using the argument that he is now in show condition making him bigger or he has grown is ridiculous, when will people be honest. Perhaps only allowing measuring to be done say in April or May before the main showing season starts would be more fair as most horses should by then be in 'show condition' and would measure more accurately. Also, perhaps there should be random remeasuring of horses with LHC's by a vet (within say a 30 mile radius) nominated by the board which would eliminate this business of downsizing horses by cash incentive.
 
My cobs are a genuine 152 and 153 cm and look like shetlands in the lineup as they are at least a hand smaller than anything else
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And yes i have seen horses measured at the beginning of the year when they are very poor and dehydrated only to appear 3 months later with more flesh than a beef bull
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Unfortunately while classes continue to be judged on who has the tallest , most obese horse in the ring it will continue
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having been a "victim" of this in the past I have full sympathy with Lynn. An annual cert is issued for 1 year only and therefore is valid for only one year, any request for re-measurement should only be valid for Full Certs, as the previous rules hinted at. In 2008 the JMB suddenly changed the ruling on this following my debarcle - obviously an attempt to discourage any confusion. The request for an Annual Cert to be remeasured makes a mockery of the whole system. The whole system needs overhauling asap. The JMB appoint the vets to act as their agents - therefore if they have a problem with their agents that should be dealt in alternative means - not by requesting remeasurements. Surely the JMB have a legal duty as they issue certs for the purpose of competition - perhaps the Horse & Hound can comment on this...
 
Whilst I am sure no one actually sets out to cheat, it seems fairly obvious to me that there's a very very strong chance that a four year old who measures at .2 of a cm under height in January won't six months later. I don't think thats got anything to do with the animal being in 'show condition', more to it having grown more during spring !! Once it will no longer measure under the height required it does not forfil the class criteria & therefore should not be competed in it.
I know there's a lot at stake in terms of time & money, but at the end of the day if it's too big it shouldn't be there.
There are a couple of suggestions in this thread regarding annuals, all of which would go some way to resolving the problems - one very good one for instance suggests measuring for annuals in April & May rather than the 'preferred' month of January. Whether or not anything is actually done remains to be seen.
 
There are people who unfortunately DO set out to cheat. I know of somebody who travelled their mare hundreds of miles back to where they used to live so their old vet could measure the horse........the vet had asked "what height do you want it to be".

I also know of someone else who does a similar thing. This person competes in a class for which their horse is too large but to put it in next height up, it looks tiny cos the horses in that class are all too big.
I did comment on it and told her that her horse was not 15hh it was at least 15.2. Mine is 15hh so i know what 15hh looks like. She told me to compete mine in the 14.2 class instead so instead of looking small against hers, it would look large in the next class down.
The height thing is a real bug-bear of mine and I agree with the poster who said anybody should be able to complain - not just those in the same class.

I think owners and vets and judges alike are guilty of abusing the system (not ALL of them obviously)
 
I do not show, but I know of a pony that is overheight but got its life cert by taking it to a pro who would be able to get it measured under.
If there were spot checks at some of the bigger shows and horses and ponies who were over height a) had their certificate changed and b) had to go in a different class it may stop some of the blatane abuse of the system.
Vets who are found to consistantly downsize for the certificates should not be allowed to measure, I know a 4yr old can grow so allowances would have to be made for that, but anyone consistantly measuring inches under height should be investigated.
 
Unfortunately the cob class is one of the worst for overheight animals - and the number which don't appear for their re-measure then go up to the maxi cob class the following year says it all really.

If that isn't an admission that their horse is overheight, I don't know what is.

Yes young horses will grow - but if they do grow enough to put them out of a class with an upper height limit, then they are then ineligible. If the owners/producers knowingly carry on showing them, they are cheats lacking in integrity and honesty. You can usually tell because the usual response is for them to throw their toys out of their prams when confronted with the truth!
 
Yes but another thing you do have to understand is that a LOT of show cobs esp. types that Lynn Russell gets in come over from Ireland as very poor 3 yr olds. I have irish horses come over who shoot up a hand between the ages of 5 & 6 due to being a bit malnourished as youngsters. As soon as the good grub gets in to them they do sadly grow, hence those that measure out, and also any cob with a bit of ID blood in it will be slower to mature and grow up. I would also say that BSJA ponies are very difficult things too, they almost need to have middle height classes for ponies over 14.2hh but say under 15.2hh as its difficult when you have a very talented 14.3hh who wont measure but also won't easily make the horse strides. Therefore the temptation to shrink them at measuring. With types like this its very hard as unless you have a super clever pony that can add another stride in or take one out, you will have problems against the stonking great 16.2hh showjumpers. I actually don't really see the problem with big BSJA ponies, as long as they clearly aren't horses!
 
How much real research has been done on height? Are horses taller when they are in "show condition", what is the effect of dehydration and hours of lunging that some people are meant to inflict on "up to height" horses? Perhaps if this hasn't been done then a little research project would be useful. In particular how about seeing if sedation makes any difference to height (it shouldn't do, horses can only be as small as their skeleton allows). If there is no difference in height between a horse allowed as long as it takes to relax and the same horse under sedation then surely there is a good case for allowing horses to be sedated if the owner wishes
 
I have a big problem with oversized BSJA 'ponies', 14.2 should mean 14.2, why is it fair to allow these oversize ponies to compete in the same classes as a 13.2 or even 12.2's. Once the 'clearly not horses' are allowed in, the even bigger ones will not stand out so much and all of a sudden 'horses' will be in too. Why have rules at all, just let the kids in on anything!.
 
Before the Second World War (1930's for those whose history is hazy), there used to be sj and show pony/polo pony/childs hunter pony classes upto 15 hands, but only 14.2 ponies were allowed to jump at Royal shows or Olympia, time for these classes to return?
 
The problem lies with the fact that a horse can and will change sixe throughout the year.

The wither is part of the spine, which as we all know is flexible.

The shoulders are suspended between the front legs by a totally moveable ball and socket joint. This is all held in place with muscles. Strong fit muscles are shorter and stronger than weak flabby ones, hence all the skeleton of the front end is held in a higher position in a fit horse.

Think of the difference between a 'weakling, puny man and a body bulider.

Exercise can greatly alter the size of the body, hence a horse could be many different sizes over the year.

Excitement also raises the wither, we all know what it's like to feel our horse suddenlly 'grow' underneath us.

We have an event pony.

She is approx 148 at the wither, at least 15hh behind so looks bigger (she is built like a kangaroo).

When she goes XC she looks about 15.2 in the start box, all coiled up and bouncing around. After XC she looks about 14 - 14.1 when she is tired and dehydrated.

So you tell me - what size is she really?
 
Really it is easy - the animal should be the correct height for its class on the day, it states up to xxx and that is what they should measure - I have seen so many over height ponies and horses that it really makes me sick.

Horses should be measured in show condition and not in the winter when lean and poor.

My own little chap is 154 so goes in the horse class - though he will probably go up to 155 as he is only 5. I have no intention of cheating, though I have been told I can easily get him in under 15 hands and probably under 14.2 with some work - translate into exhaust him, drop his weight and fitness, dope him and cut his feet back to nothing - and I will never subject any horses of mine to this torture just to get a certificate.

When in an open horse and pony class, many of the so called under 153s are several inches tallers than him
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Judges also need to stop going for biggest -tallest and fattest is best, though to be fair, some of them do not, as I have been top of the line, albeit on the smallest in the class.

Finally LHC should be at 8 - many horses are still growing until that age - one of mine did another 2 cms from 7 to 8.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Really it is easy - the animal should be the correct height for its class on the day , it states up to xxx and that is what they should measure - I have seen so many over height ponies and horses that it really makes me sick.

Horses should be measured in show condition and not in the winter when lean and poor.

My own little chap is 154 so goes in the horse class - though he will probably go up to 155 as he is only 5. I have no intention of cheating, though I have been told I can easily get him in under 15 hands and probably under 14.2 with some work - translate into exhaust him, drop his weight and fitness, dope him and cut his feet back to nothing - and I will never subject any horses of mine to this torture just to get a certificate.

When in an open horse and pony class, many of the so called under 153s are several inches tallers than him
confused.gif


Judges also need to stop going for biggest -tallest and fattest is best , though to be fair, some of them do not, as I have been top of the line, albeit on the smallest in the class.

Finally LHC should be at 8 - many horses are still growing until that age - one of mine did another 2 cms from 7 to 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautifully put & I agree 100%
 
I feel that Associations and Judges are to blame for the current mad situation with height certificates. We have to ask why competitiors want to be big in the ring? Because that is what wins. If you enter a 14.2-15.2 class and you are 14.3, you will be at a disadvantage. But why? the class is 14.2 - 15.2. Not for horses that are just 15.2. Heights were just a way to reduce class size. You could say a class for mares and one for geldings, just as much. Judges need to give horses that are in front of them the same chance no matter what height they are. That would stop this height problem over night. It is possible as they have to do that in Championships.
So please judges, stop judging only on who is the biggest in the ring, and look at the ponies/horses in front of you irregardless of height. Then no more problem.
 
My mum often says that Stroller was the biggest 14.2hh she has ever stood next too. So it is not new. However, it really does annoy me. My old horse was bang on 15hh and we would do workers on him. He was often the smallest in the class. And just the other week I was watching some hunter classes and in the small hunters. Again the horses I knew to be 15.2hh were the smallest horses in the class.

The damaging thing is that amateurs are being put off showing as they are told there horse is too small for the class but don't want to been cheating so just don't bother.

What I think is a much bigger issue is overweight show horses. Each week pictures of obese horses are in Horse and Hound and its truly disgusting. I think the editors could be far more choosy when picking pictures for the addition. The 15 hander was an all round Pony Club pony and eventer and therefore not fat enough to be a Hunter.
 
I have to say that I think the focus should be shifted here to the measuring vets on the JMB panel. Surely the responsibility to measure accurately is with them and it is they who should be disciplined or repremanded when inaccurate measurements are issued? To have a governing body who permits individuals to object seems madness - surely life should mean life - but every care should be taken at the time of measuring that total honesty and accuracy are upheld? If I bought an animal that had a life height cert and then was found to be overheight I would want to pursue the measuring vets and JMB as I would ahve relied on that in good faith. Has this been tested in court?

Seperately, we have recently bought a very big moving 153cms (in her shoes when the stick is put straight onto her) mare who did well at her first ODE 10 days ago. The following day as fellow competitors knew she was for sale I had three phone calls from people who had been watching her at the event - and each call was for our 16hh mare. That shows just how hard it is by eye to tell what size a horse or pony is and if anyone could object to height if she went on to do, say, 15hh WHP classes, she could end up being re-measured at the owners expense again or the topic of conversation amongst jealous fellow competitors.

It's not always easy to tell - some horses/ponies have huge movement or as someone above said are croup high - and so surely life should mean life, administered by the JMB vets with scrupulous honesty and who should be accountable by their actions and measurements.
 
I know little about showing but I have seen massive abuse of height certificates within BSJA. How may times have I heard "I could get that down to 14h2"" when they're looking at something far nearer to 15h2". I owned a 14h1" jumping pony & I mean 14h1"! & he was in lovely condition. When he stood in lineups he was towered above by other 'ponys?'.

How many times have you seen an advert for 'a full up 14h2", in other words a 15h+ animal with a certificate for 14h2"?

In theory a height certificate should be a good thing but the system has been abused so much that you cannot trust it. It may take a lot of time on the day of a show, or even the day before, but horses should be measured before a class to ensure they are the correct size. This however will never happen because the people who are in a position in the various organisations to change the systen won't because they in turn have abused the system through their competing career & see no reason for a change.
 
The JMB seem to have tried to improve the accuracy of measuring over the last few years - if you look at the current list of approved measurers it is approximately half what it was ten years ago. That's why animals have had to travel hundreds of miles to get the measurement their owners want.

Vets are strictly governed by the RCVS - but I've never seen any comment from the RCVS regarding measuring. However, I think if they could get on board with the JMB it would be a good thing and would go some way to restoring our faith in the system.
 
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