Height certificates - have your say!

Im surprised that this has only just come to light as it has been going on for years!!!! Judges constanly put the over height horses at the top of the line and people want to win so what will they do??? show overheight horses of course. The only people that lose out are those who play by the rules. I think annual height certificates are the way forward as if your horse/pony is genuinely that height then you have nothing to lose!!!!!
 
Hear Hear Measles!!!!!!!

I don't do much showing, but several years ago bought an unmeasured 6yr old '14.1hh' for my daughter. The pony was for mainly PC eventing, but also good enough to show and do WH, so we had her measured. AHC and following year LHC (different vets of course)both came in at the same 142cms - ie UNDER 14hands, but not hugely. So we did the 143cm classes and she looked TINY!!

We then bought a 14.2 for other daughter, who everyone said looked 'a bit big' but no-one complained - he already had a LHC when we bought, and having not had much experience of this measuring lark, I assumed that if professioally measured by a JMB vet, that that was all that we needed!!!
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WHAT ON EARTH IS THE POINT of bothering with the JMB certs AT ALL if they are not able to be believed. They are very costly and time consuming things to get (travel, shoes off, shoes on etc) .
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The FEI pony Trials are now measuring everything at International level, and some at nationals too. However, before this, overheight ponies were being sold for mega bucks as they had a LHC. Their unsuspecting purchasers bought them because they had a certificate
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Now these same ponies are worth about a 10th of what they were, as in eventing, if you are on a 14.3, you are competing against huge horses, and it just doesn't work at the higher levels.!!!!!!!!!
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At the time (a couple of years ago) I heard that some people were threatening to take the JMB to court over this, but never heard any outcome.

Has it all been hushed up?
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Does anyone know?
 
I showed for several years Int Working Hunter within the BSPS and people in the society where proud of how they had achieved a LHC on a horse which was clearly over height . My horse just measured in at 15.2 without lunging, starving or dehydrating but looked small against others. If you dared to complain you had enemies for your remaining time in the BSPS. Some of the horses and ponies in workers classes clearly need to be re measured or it will go on for ever and a day. You should be able to complain about a over height horse without being prejudiced against and in a confidential way.
 
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You should be able to complain about a over height horse without being prejudiced against and in a confidential way.

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Can you imagine the havoc that the jealous, the vindictive, the unpleasant folk would have it that were possible? Anyone who wanted to cause trouble for whatever reason could have a field day. Say, you have a livery who doesn't pay and you ask them to leave - they could them have every one of your horses re-measured by getting their friends to complain and the owner would have all of the expense and hassle.

Think about it another way - if your dentist, solicitor or doctor cocked up then it would be they who were pursued. I don't suggest that individuals don't try and get larger animals measured in but it is IMO the JMB VETS - the qualified professionals who administer the certificates - who need to police the system and with whom responsibility rests.
 
If you saw my post above, that is exactly what I am saying!! Why is there no responsibility on the JMB??? -
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They are an official organisation, charging large fees, and demanding certain criteria for measuring - ie AHC and LHC from different vets - shoes off (which then have to be put on again - not good for feet) - All very time consuming and expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT apparently for NOTHING! Not worth the paper it is written on.

As someone who bought a 14.2 on the strength of having a certificate, do I have any redress?
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I am not a cheat or even a showing person- I am just an ordinary person, very experienced in horses, but not, apparently in the world of height measurement.

I would be very happy to hear from anyone who has bought an expensive (or even an inexpensive) horse or pony witha LHC, believing its height to be what was certified by a professional organisation(JMB).

I have never measured our pony since we got it, but if I can't sell it as the same height, I will be after someone's blood (JMB or vet) and would welcome some support!!

It is time that someone stuck up for those who are NOT cheats, but have bought in good faith and stand to lose a great deal of money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The people who have been measuring these horses/ponies at less than their true height have been cheating not only fellow competitors but also purchasers.

The re-measures are coming in at an average of around 5cms overheight - looking at the JMB website.

Surely enough evidence is building for a criminal fraud investigation. The people involved must have been totally incompetent or corrupt.
 
I think the onus should be shifted to the JMB and vets who are measuring in the first place, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with measuring overheight horses in
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Life certificate should mean life certificate and if it means tightening the rules and having to have all second measurements for life height certificates being done with a vet and a steward from the JMB then so be it.

Its not just overheight ponies being measured in either, I actually bought a pony that had been measured out by a vet, I sticked it at 148 when we tried it, but got it really cheap because it had measured out, I appealed it put down the £500 for the appeal and she went to a vet specified by the JMB and there was a steward there and she measured in no problems on a laser measurer (147.8), she now has an R on her passport to denote she has been re-measured in with a steward present... if vets can't be trusted to do the job correctly then change the rules, so there has to be a vet and a steward or even ponies have to be presented in front of a panel at set dates at different venuesto get their life height (abit like stallion gradings but pony measuring parties!)

Get the measuring right in the first place I say!
 
Absolutely spot on!!!

Why have an official measuriong panel, if no-one is going to trust what they say? It just means that anyone with a pony that measures dead on 14.2 is going to spend its life being measured by all and sundry at every show/event!!

What is the point in that??????

IMO A LIFE HEIGHT CERTIFICATE SHOULD MEAN JUST THAT!! No Questions asked!!

BUT that means the JMB HAS to get their house in order, and be ABOVE REPROACH!!

SO WHAT if a few ponies are millimetres out from the height specified - as long as there is confidence in the people measuring (ie NO backhanders) that should be that!!! No more worrying for the owners at each and every venue, if their pony happens to be genuinely up to height.

The JMB certificate should be believed IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. If not, the whole organisation should be disbanded as corrupt and not able to do what is required of it!!!
 
Punk - I totally agree with all of your points and those of Teffy.

I had a pony JMB measured in the UK - an irish pony who had been measured under the laser at Dublin - measure over by 6mm (0.6cms) and I accepted this as I trusted the vet from the JMB panel. Subsequently, I have bought ponies with life height certificates and if any of them were brought into doubt I would be alarmed as we have to have a system to trust. For many of us ponies are a significant financial outlay and we simply have to believe the professionals and turn to them should there be issues with the system.
 
the trouble is allowing the over height animals to compete in the wrong class will allow this to continue,
how can i explain to a teenager whoose horse was entered correctly into one showing class, and ended up being the smallest in the horse class, that what we have done is good and honest when the judge tells her she has a pony and should have gone in the pony class even though the ponies in this class where taller than her horse (15.1 and a bit)
this was qualifying level as well
 
QR.
The JMB do a great job of admin, but it is (some of) their agents who are at fault here, not the organisation itself. People with professional qualifications such as vets should be as "Caesars Wife" ie beyond reproach but this has been shown not always to be the case. Perhaps measuring should be like vetting - carried out by an independent vet & not the clients own vet? Maybe not even an annual should be issued until the horse has been measured independently by two different vets from different practices. Yes this would be time consuming & no doubt incur still more expense, but I think it would be worth it to ensure that we can have faith in the JMB height certificates.
 
I think the only way to stop this abuse is to have spot check measurements at events. Competitors know what height their horses are and it says 15.2 and under on the day. They should take into account what size their horse will be in show condition, not mid winter. Its cheating at the end of the day which ever way they dress it up.

When they refuse to send their horse for remeasuring that just says to me that they knew it was too big and knowingly competed in the wrong class. Where's the Sportsmanship in that.

Last year I made a point of standing where the small Hunters left the Ring at the end of the Class at the Great Yorkshire. I don't think one of them was 15.2
 
Zebedee!

Saying that it is not the JMB, but their agents who are at fault, is like saying that the Chairman of a large Company is not responsible when his directors or staff make mistakes!!!

The Buck Stops at the TOP!!

If you set yourself up as a professional organisation, charging money for services, you have to take responsiblilty for the actions of your selected agents; who are also charging a fee for the service.

The 'ACTUAL' height of ponies is notoriously difficult to establish.

We have had two mature ponies which, if stood side by side (say in a trailer, looking at their bums!) looked to be identical in height - yet one was a measured 148cms, and the other a measured 142cms!!!!!!! Yes - one had high withers, and the other had virtually no withers. Is this fair?

Perhaps as someone else commented on this site, we should get away from this height issue altogether, and construct classes with a better definition of TYPE. After all, if it only the up-to (or overheight) ponies that are going to win as is suggested, then what about all the 12.3's and 13.3's etc etc?!!!! Is it fair that they shouldn't ever be seen as being as good as or better than their 1" higher fellow competitors.
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Maybe having a separate class for every cm in height would be the way to keep people happy
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, but would, of course, also be completely unworkable!!

The whole thing stinks of sour grapes in my book, and I'm just glad we don't show, and my children are out of pony classes now!!

I have one 148 with LHC left, but if it is found to not be what is said on the certificate when I come to sell it, I will be taking the matter further with the JMB! as under the Sale of Goods Act, they were responsible IMO for me buying the horse 'as described'.
 
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We have had two mature ponies which, if stood side by side (say in a trailer, looking at their bums!) looked to be identical in height - yet one was a measured 148cms, and the other a measured 142cms!!!!!!! Yes - one had high withers, and the other had virtually no withers. Is this fair?

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Err Yes, horses & ponies are measured at the withers not the backside so your horse is whatever it measures at the withers....end of story.
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As you may gather I'm against life height certificates due to the abuse by some owners in collusion with some vets.
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The JMB can only act on information received from their agents (ie the measuring vets). If a pattern seems to be forming like people travelling long distances to a particular vet they will investigate, & take the appropriate action. The JMB office staff can hardly supervise every measurement personally now can they ??!!

Agreed that it's the judges attitudes that have led to this though - as has already been said there are so many instances of those on true up to height exhibits being told that their horse is too small.
 
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. The JMB office staff can hardly supervise every measurement personally now can they ??!!


Why on earth not?! After all, presumably the reason why they use VETS to do the measuring is because they are 'professionals' (ie bound by a professional code of conduct)and therefore SHOULD be able to be trusted!! They could train and employ their own measurers - IT HARDLY NEEDS A VETERINARY DEGREE and I should think that most vets would be only too happy to give up the job!! Perhaps the JMB don't want to do that because they would then be totally responsible and open to being sued directly!!?



Agreed that it's the judges attitudes that have led to this though - as has already been said there are so many instances of those on true up to height exhibits being told that their horse is too small.

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This definitely needs to be addressed!!! Biggest is not always most beautiful!!
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The reason that vets are appointed to the position of official measurers is that they are supposed to act reponsibly as befits their position & qualification.

I think appointing JMB officers to do the job themselves is a good one. They would also need to have training in horse identification, although some pasports do now contain a JMB page, there are still many that don't, so they would also need to be able to complete an identification diagram correctly. They's also need to be capable of spotting dehydrated/ footsore horses.

Maybe vets should still be ones doing the measurers, but local JMB stewards could be appointed, & would have to declare any interest in a horse presented for measuring in the same way that judges do. It would be an advantage if such people didn't actually have anything to do with horses - then they'd have no axes to grind, & wouldn't want to curry favour with anyone who may end uo judging their exhibits !!

The thing is with all this is that the vast majority of vets carrying out JMB measurments are honest, & report their findings accordingly. It's the one or two who are not discharging their duties as accurately as they should be that are drawing the JMB in to disrepute.
 
I think that vets should notify the JMB when they have a measuring booked in and that the JMB should do spot checks. I also think that spot checks should be made at competitions and any animal that measured over by more than a sensible allowance for foot growth, shoes and atmosphere should have to be re measured at a later date but be allowed to continue competing at that event.

The JMB also need to get their house in order. This year has seem unprecedented numbers called for remeasurement and they have to be done in under 21 days. Owners are only being offered one or two dates. Add to that the pressure and expense of getting shoes removed and then put back, arranging holiday, cover for kids someone to drive etc it gets expensive and complicated. What if you are going on holiday or away when the notification comes through.

Perhaps the JMB should have to pay the owners of ponies who do measure in at or lower than the recorded height compensation for their trouble. They should also allow honest owners the right to request a new height certificate if they feel that the life height certificate they have is no longer a true reflection of the height. At they moment they have to pay £600 the same as if making an objection.
 
What a great post Magicgirl. Very sensible!!
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BUT I still think it shouldn't happen at all if the JMB got their house in order.

Why have we not heard anything from them??? What do they actually DO, apart from charging fees for a certificate that apparently isn't to be believed!
THAT WE ALL APPARENTLY HAVE TO HAVE - OBLIGATORY!!!

As I said before, there is SO much money at stake with some of these ponies that it is time maybe the FRAUD SQUAD should be brought in!!!

I hate seeing any kind of conning or fraud, and this whole situation is just ridiculous.

It doesn't affect me except in a very minor way, as we are not involved in the big business of showing. My ponies just wanted to compete in their height class at PC, lower level BSJA and BE.

Why SHOULD we have to be 'in the know' and QUESTION a height certificate when we buy a pony - meaning we have to insist on shoes off, trip to official measurer etc BEFORE GETTING IT VETTED!
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It is all so silly, and brought about by unscrupulous vets (who should know better and should be struck off!), cheats, and judges who think that biggest is best.

Makes you want to give up altogether!!!
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I don't even know why I am bothering with this any more, because it seems like the odds are stacked against anyone who muight complain.

I JUST HATE SEEING SOMETHING SO BADLY RUN, (JMB)AND COSTING SO MANY (honest)PEOPLE SO MUCH HEARTACHE AND SO MUCH MONEY.

I don't really care about the dishonest ones.
 
Well said, Punk! Life should be life but administered properly. The argument that the JMB can't be held responsible is total bunkum - if I have a survey done, buy a house based on that survey and it falls down around my ears immediately whose fault is it? The surveyor - who has indemnity insurance.

I am really, really surprised that the JMB life certificate has not been tested at law.
 
Phew!! Thank you so much Measles!!

I got so worked up about this on behalf of other honest people, that I thought I might have gone OTT a bit!! Maybe I did, but it is time the JMB stood up for themselves, and explained why it is all failing, and causing us all with 14.2's to worry so much!!
(or even 13,2's and 12.2's and 15.2's! - not to mention the 13/14/15 handers!)

Are we over/are we under - seems to matter SO much! FAR TOO MUCH. The one with the bang on height shouldn't necessarily win.

At the end of the day, the BEST pony or horse should win - regardless of height.
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QR.
I think it's now called a Full Height Certificate, not Life?

If you employ a surveyor to survey your house & they make an error who you sue depends entirely on whether or not the suyveyor is employed or self employed. I'm not sure what the legal relationship between the JMB & the vets who measure for them is. For instance are the vets employed (PAYE deducted at source) sub contracted, or engaged on a consultancy basis? I'll ring the JMB tomorrow & ask shall I? Unless someone already knows the answer?

Magicgirl, I would expect the JMB already have litigation liability insurance in place which users of the service already pay for as part of the fee. If they start having to pay compensation then the insurance premiums will rocket & where do you think the money for that would come from? Correct - the service users !!

There are many sensible & valid suggestions contained within this thread as to how the JMB can improve the service they offer, as unfortunately their trust in their measuring agents has proved misplaced at times.

It's a hard balance to get right making the objection procedure more open whilst at the same time preventing every vindictive bad loser able to lodge a complaint each tome they're beaten.

Punk, you are not the only one to feel very strongly about this at all, & whether or not the JMB chose to tighten up on the procedures remains to be seen. It really shouldn't matter if a horse or pony is the smallest in the next section up. If it is true to type & mannerly then it should be assessed accordingly, not just dismissed as being ' too small'. Judges need to stop looking for the biggest fattest horses & ponies, but that is down to the societies instructing them accordingly, & removing from their panels those who seem to reward cheats with obese animals.

Of course what it appears from these discussions SHOULD happen, as against what WILL happen will I suspect be two entirely different things, but perhaps now it's been made public things will move forwards.
 
However much you improve the JMB's way of doing things you are never going to get away from the fact that a horse's front legs are attached to its body by muscle alone. Therefore it stands to reason that a horse may be a different height when it is excited to the height that it is when relaxed.

No matter how much the rules are tightened up and policed, you cannot win over nature. And there will always be those who will deprive water, trim feet back really hard, put pins on the measuring stick etc, to persuade a horse to measure under.

That said, natural variation is never going to be as big as the discrepancies that have come to light recently. Somebody has been doing some very creative measuring if something has measured in at 15hh but acually stands closer to 16!
 
I have a solution! It's very cheap!
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Put a stick over the gate at just above the maximum height allowed for the class. If you can get your pony into the ring without jumping over the stick, it can compete in the class!
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I have to say that I watched a riding horse class at a county show recently and in the championship the small RH looked bigger than the large RH its a bit of a joke. I am more worried about what happens to these horse to get them under the height measurement than then fact they are competing. I think that the vets measuring the horses should take some responsibility for the condition, at the time of measuring. Is there a way of checking hydration levels? All horses should be drugs tested at the time of measuring?
Maybe photos should be taken for proof of condition and height not just taking someone’s word. I suppose that the measuring stick can always be fiddled. I know it would be difficult at shows but there could be random check on height, a leeway for shoes and excitement at a show. Or called to a local vets in the presence of officials, (not sure who this is). Possibly with tough punishments for owners if horse significantly measuring out and for the people who measure the horse if there are a number of there horses that they measure, measuring out then remove their ability to provide height certificates.
Just a couple of ideas off the top of my head.
M xx
 
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I have to say that I watched a riding horse class at a county show recently and in the championship the small RH looked bigger than the large RH its a bit of a joke.

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I've seen that a few times over the years.

Also agree with everything you say re the horse welfare aspect
 
I know of a vet that was removed from the JMB panel for saying "what height do you want it?"

When I took mine, she was trimmed normally, but the measuring pad is under the runway for an airbase - what was that about standing taller when excited?

Actually she measured in just fine at 151.5cm (14.3 and a half) for 15hh classes, and as she's croup high, she's usually fine in 15hh WHP and SHP and looks about right.

However when we've tried her in small hunter classes - which she is, absolutely the type for - we've been told not to bother she's too small. The problem is 15hh SHP and WHP are also age limited so we're out of those with an adult rider, but Small Hunter which isn't age limited - I'm told she's too small - but at over 14.2 and under 15.2 - why?

I was at a decent sized show up here, and a friend took mine in the small hunter class. The judge said at the end she's the one he'd have loved to take home, and the lad who did the ridden section - was really tall and he made her look tiny - but he rode her and came back grinning ear to ear with the ride she gave him - but we were placed way down the line, and the bigger horses were at the top.

How can a judge say he liked her the best and her not win? Makes no sense to me at all.

I agree certificates should be at 7 or 8. I do think somehow - and I don't have all the answers how - but that legitimate complaints should be allowed and the cheats chucked out without the person who brings attention to it being stigmatised. But then I agree if its not someone with an interest in the class - you could get people complaining for the sake of it as they've a grudge.

I actually really enjoy showing. What I hate is this whole "unless you're a producer you won't get anywhere" attitude and downright snobbery that exists and stops the amateurs having a go. And I can't understand winning for the sake of it knowing damn well your horse shouldn't be in the class as its overheight.

The whole showing scene needs a look at, stop the obese and overheight being rewarded, actually look at whats in front of the judges and that includes counting manners (in a youngstock class I got moved down places as mine was a git - which I fully agree with, yet at another event a colt that did nothing but rear and strike out at the handler - won.) And as a mixed age class - up to 3 year olds - all the biggest 3 year olds were placed - the babies weren't even looked at! I've seen classes too where the judge has blatantly missed wrong canter leads and lameness, and then not even watched other competitors individual shows. But you never dare complain because you know it'll do you so much harm.

From an outsider, its so biased, you daren't dip your toe in! Lets face it, we all love our horses and to be placed lower on merit - you have to take - but when its not done fairly - it stings! Yes I was disappointed at the youngster being moved down places - but he deserved it for being a little troll in the ring. The first one I took him to I was devastated at him not even being looked at. We pay our entry fees the same as anyone, you should get an equal share of the judges attention.

I've even been in one where the judge wouldn't entertain placing my mare - and she said as much to the rider - because she was CHESTNUT!

Whole showing system needs a clear out - a look at the classes, heights and ages and judging criteria. No two shows are the same at the moment. There are one or 2 local ones I can't go to as the classes are 14.3 and under, 15hh and over. Mine is bang in the middle - what do I do? Overheight for one and under for the other...

And of course allow for adults on smaller horses and ponies rather than forcing them into overhorsing themselves.

*soapbox moment over!!!*
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