Help / Advise on sold horse returned

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sgcoolchick

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Hello,

Wondering if anyone can help!

I recently sold my gelding after discovering he was too spooky for me out hacking and he picked up on my nerves that we just were not clicking, however ground work he was fine, I could bath him untied and do pretty much anything with him! a real softie!

He was sold about 9 weeks ago to a couple wanting to just hack him, they text to say he was fine for the first 4/5 weeks, then i started to recieve emails to say he was bolting when being led. Addmitedley I did tell them he has done this on a couple occassions but never really went very far and would always come back! They took him to a "natural horseman ship" workshop type weekend after only having him 2 weeks and he damaged the horse box by getting his legs over the front bars ( when collecting him they were not going to tie him up in the box until my yard owner insisted!) - so it's possible this happenend as they did not tie him up. Plus why would you take a horse away only 2 weeks after arriving, he apparently was very badly behaved- he probably thought he had been sold on again! They then told me they could not manage him and would need to move him on. I have since purchased a new horse, who has gone permanentley lame and i do not have the money to buy him back! I explained this, but said i would be happy to have him back and to turn him out on my parents farm and most likely keep him as a glorified pet! my friends were all a bit uneasy with this and told me I was mad to want to have a horse as a pet costing me money to keep- but he is such a nice chap i really didnt want to hear him being moved on again! So they then told me they were sending him off to a "boot camp" with some horse therapist to teach him some manors, he was there for 2 days and apparently barged out of several iron gates and was trying to get to the mares. This therapist is saying his issues are around mares, and this is when he behaves badly (he was not cut until he was 12 as he was used as a coloured stallion). The owners asked me before buying him due to this was he ok with mares- and yes he had always been fine, even when they came to trial him he was turned out with a mare, and a livery had a mare the other side of the fence- therefore in my experience of owning him he really had no issues with mares! Sorry this is long winded! So they emailed me saying can i come and pick him up, they can not cope with him, and if not they will put him down. Again I said this would be fine, but i can not refund their money. They were fine with this, they just wanted him gone. So i paid for horse transport to collect and return him. He came back covered in cuts which had not been attended, his coat was dull and in a sorry condition- i sent him off looking like a show horse! he had a lovely shiny coat, he was sad and sorry, and his feet were in a state, one shoes had been ripped off and half his hoof missing with nails still in the foot, toes were long and it seems he still had the shoes on i sent him in (my farrier informed me of this)- so it looks like he was not being properly cared for anyway. So he has returned, calm and sorry, living with 1 other gelding and he seems happy after a week of being pampered. I had not heard from the owners and yesterday I had an email, basically accusing me of lying about his temperment around mares, etc and that I told them he was fine- but he was....and they even bought him in from the field when he was turned out with another mare! They said they are going away for a couple of weeks and will "be in touch" I am now a little concerened they are going to try and take me to court or something! I have his passport, they emailed me asking to confirm i would take full responsibility for him now, and i also asked them to sign a document which said "sold as seen". They have even admitted that in the emails. What should I do? I can not afford to pay them back and I am left with a horse I will not ride and is going to be retired to the farm. Where do I stand?
Thanks for reading! x
 
They haven't a leg to stand on regarding refund. All they could do is maybe take the horse back if u don't have proof he's gifted to u. Deal with this as soon as thy get back, if they start any nonsense, give them a livery bill and tell them to get their horse off ur feckin land. They'll soon change their attitude x
 
Two months is quite long enough for a horse to learn to misbehave and it sounds as thought he was a bit much for them right from the start. I think you have been decent to have him back -surely unless a horse is lied about it is buyer beware. He has obviously been testing the boundaries and found that they cannot control him, but I can see their dilema as well.

If you have it in writing - an email - that they were willing for you to have him back and no refund then you are in the clear. If you haven't got the money you haven't got it. I can see that they would like a refund, so they can look for another horse, but you have got to consider what he is worth now, not what they paid for him.

Hard one, hope it works out for you.
 
Thank you. I am not sure I will be able to get them to "gift him" to me, especially as it seems they have now changed their mind on things! But I do have emails saying please just take him etc, and can I confirm I now take responsibility etc. Which I think would stand as hard evidence! Plus they have no idea of my home address or where he is now kept :/ just annoying! They should be grateful I took him back, most people would just say sorry its your problem now mine, sold as seen! But I care too much about the horse!
 
Orangehorse said:
Two months is quite long enough for a horse to learn to misbehave and it sounds as thought he was a bit much for them right from the start. I think you have been decent to have him back -surely unless a horse is lied about it is buyer beware. He has obviously been testing the boundaries and found that they cannot control him, but I can see their dilema as well.

If you have it in writing - an email - that they were willing for you to have him back and no refund then you are in the clear. If you haven't got the money you haven't got it. I can see that they would like a refund, so they can look for another horse, but you have got to consider what he is worth now, not what they paid for him.

Hard one, hope it works out for you.
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Yes I can see it from their side, but at the same time if you buy a horse its the risk you take- the told me to collect him or he would be put down as he has been branded as "dangerous" i dont understand he has been so gentle with me, and he has on his return- i think maybe they had little experience hence the state he came back in. If you buy a horse sold as seen its your problem?!
 
I might be inclined to get in first with this one. Send them a solicitor's letter stating what went on exactly as you have reported here (that he was fine with the mares you turned him out with etc). State with photographic evidence if possible, the condition he was returned in and the conditions of return (no money exchanging hands).

It sounds like it all went a bit wrong fairly quickly and then bad to worse with the poor lad not getting a chance to settle down. Shame someone with experience and a good dose of common sense did not step in and help them.
 
I do not believe emails are considered legal evidence, but that is not the real problem is it ? You sold someone a horse that you knew was difficult. Having been sold a difficult horse myself, and been through the legal circle, I can tell you that they will only have a case against you - if they can prove that you knew the horse was difficult. Unless they have such proof, you are in the clear. Emails don't count, I needed an independent witness to write a letter, which could then be produced in court.

I'd like to think that you made it very clear that this horse was a spooky hack and that he was known to bolt. Also, that he had previously been a stallion until late in his life, because this is all info they would have been entitled to have.

I hope for your horses sake, that he now has a guaranteed future with you.
 
BigRed said:
I do not believe emails are considered legal evidence, but that is not the real problem is it ? You sold someone a horse that you knew was difficult. Having been sold a difficult horse myself, and been through the legal circle, I can tell you that they will only have a case against you - if they can prove that you knew the horse was difficult. Unless they have such proof, you are in the clear. Emails don't count, I needed an independent witness to write a letter, which could then be produced in court.

I'd like to think that you made it very clear that this horse was a spooky hack and that he was known to bolt. Also, that he had previously been a stallion until late in his life, because this is all info they would have been entitled to have.

I hope for your horses sake, that he now has a guaranteed future with you.
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Thanks for your reply- I did not sell a difficult horse. I sold a horse that was spooky to hack yes, but ground work not a problem, I had him for only 4 months myself and the only issues I had was out hacking, and when we first got him yes he decided to run off when being led from the field a couple of times (no horse is perfect and i just put this down to settling in) by the end of the 4 months he was so settled as mentioned I could bath him untied and he was so well behaved my novice husband could bring him in and out of the field, rug him etc- not exactly a difficult horse? I informed them of his spooking out hacking- hence why i was selling him, i told them he had bolted a couple of times when being lead- but only when we first purchased him, i also informed him that he was a stallion until he was 12 (now 16), and that he had showed no stallion like behaviour and if this was the case i certainly would not have him turned out with a mare? I think I have been more than fair taking him back - they were offering him the death penalty! I could of just ignored them and said not my problem, but I am a decent person and I was really upset that I had to sell him. I have no intention of selling him on again as it broke my heart to see him come back in this state. So really I think he was sold to people who had lack of experience and he was not given time to settle.
 
You were completely up front and have not mislead them but I do think the idea of getting in first is a good one. Might well save you a lot of hearttache and worry in the long term.
 
Hi,

I agree with Rebel on this one.

I have seen this and experienced something not so different a good few years ago.

Gather all the communications between you and the 'new owners' and get yourself a free hour with a Solicitor.

Buying horses is 'buyer beware' - it is their challenge now to PROVE you knew of this existing bad behaviour when you sold him.

You did declare what you were aware of e.g. he was too much for you spooking etc... which is fine.

As you say THEY brought him in from the field where he was with another mare at your old yard, so a good thing to have would be a couple of witnesses (if need be) from this yard who 1) ran the yard to give a character witness (you/horse) and also 2) owner of said mare.

Horses behave differently in different circumstances, and with different people. They are not robots to deal with.

Buying is a risk, and it's up to us as the buyers to tick all our own boxes, including whether we think the seller is being truthful or not.
If we lack those skills/experience then take a friend/instructor or someone you trust.

Given my friend has recently been horse searching and I have been roped in, I have seen many a dishonest seller, but also met some honest ones.

It's never been such a 'buyer beware' time as this is now.

Good luck with the siutation,
 
Thank you- i am just not sure if i should "rock the boat" before anything more had been said- i emailed back saying i had been 100% honest and that i was really sad that he had not behaved for them etc. i just dont understand what they did to upset him like this, he has been fine with me! I am hoping they go on holiday and not contact me again :/ they could of advertised him and sold him on, i only offered them the option to come back as a last resort and they were happy for this. Also how can i sell a horse on that has now probably got serious issues from being in their care! I just want to look after him and keep him forever which I plan on doing, they may feel like they have lost £1200 but I now have this horse for life to feed and care for because they were not able to manage him.
 
The old maxim "let the buyer beware" holds good here I suggest. The buyer(s) probably over-horsed themselves but didn't want to admit it; and anyone buying a horse that was cut later in life knows full well that there could well be some "challenges" in behaviour, so IMO they don't have a leg to stand on. I would suggest that whatever horse they have they may well have "issues" with: some people expect a new horse to settle instantly to their regime and expect to push all the buttons and it immediately happens and aren't prepared to put the effort in.

You've got the horse back, which is good, and are obviously prepared to do the right thing by him which shows you are considering the horse's welfare, rather than dump him at some dealers or market. This shows you are a considerate and conscientious owner.

Personally I wouldn't give up on this horse: probably a move to a new home unsettled him and I do feel it might be worth trying again with him? Perhaps he'd benefit from a lot of groundwork, understanding respect etc, then take that on into ridden work. Perhaps you'd benefit from a trainer who could help you? Yes I know he's a "veteran" but I would venture to suggest that it might well be worth a different approach with perhaps an IH practitioner or someone with the Michael Peace/Robert Maxwell approach??

Just a thought.
 
PiebaldPeril said:
The old maxim "let the buyer beware" holds good here I suggest. The buyer(s) probably over-horsed themselves but didn't want to admit it; and anyone buying a horse that was cut later in life knows full well that there could well be some "challenges" in behaviour, so IMO they don't have a leg to stand on. I would suggest that whatever horse they have they may well have "issues" with: some people expect a new horse to settle instantly to their regime and expect to push all the buttons and it immediately happens and aren't prepared to put the effort in.

You've got the horse back, which is good, and are obviously prepared to do the right thing by him which shows you are considering the horse's welfare, rather than dump him at some dealers or market. This shows you are a considerate and conscientious owner.

Personally I wouldn't give up on this horse: probably a move to a new home unsettled him and I do feel it might be worth trying again with him? Perhaps he'd benefit from a lot of groundwork, understanding respect etc, then take that on into ridden work. Perhaps you'd benefit from a trainer who could help you? Yes I know he's a "veteran" but I would venture to suggest that it might well be worth a different approach with perhaps an IH practitioner or someone with the Michael Peace/Robert Maxwell approach??

Just a thought.
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Thank you- I dont like being made out to be the bad guy in all this when I really do care and if i could afford to refund them I would! But I am sure they have treated him unfairly for him to act in this way, he has returned to me, but not to the same yard, to my own farm with a new horse he did not know and they have settled and I have had no issues- again my novice husband is leading him around the yard etc! not exactly a beast that should be branded dangerous? I think it's horrible that they were going to have him put to sleep! Hence why I was so determined to have him back and save him from his own death! I am going to let him chill out for a month or so- then I will start working with him again, at the end of the day i had the ridden issue, he picked up my nerves, i will work with him and if all fails i will look for someone who wants free riding and bonds with him. no way will this horse be leaving my care again- i may perhaps let him go out on loan but i have no intention of letting him be mistreated or misunderstood. its really sad and i wish i had never sold him as it seems in the those 9 weeks they have caused a lot more hurt and upset to him for him to of wanted to barge through iron gates and injure himself. I also informed them he does not like being turned out on his own (as do many horses- i dont see this as being a problem horse, just normal as they are heard animals). i feel he was probably turned out on his own, and yes he could see "mares" in another field but i wonder if he was simply trying to escape just to be with other horses in general ...mares or no geldings?!
 
I think that they well might be in touch on their return from holiday as it seems a little strange to have given him back without asking for their £1200 back.

If they were going on holiday they will have wanted 'rid' of the horse before going & some time to rethink things.

If they have given back his passport then that does suggest they have given him to you, but the 'keeper' should have the passport anyway AFAIK.
 
legaldancer said:
I think that they well might be in touch on their return from holiday as it seems a little strange to have given him back without asking for their £1200 back.

If they were going on holiday they will have wanted 'rid' of the horse before going & some time to rethink things.

If they have given back his passport then that does suggest they have given him to you, but the 'keeper' should have the passport anyway AFAIK.
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Well I will have to wait and see, but why send emails saying "i understand i bought him sold as seen and yes this is now my problem but if you can just collect him we would be very grateful". "Please can you email back to confirm that you are now taking full responsibility and ownership of him". I have texts and emails backing it all up, it seems they could not be bothered to sell him on or give him time to settle and they only options they were willing to look at were having him put down or me collecting him. Plus I can't see them pursuing it for £1200 when legal fees are so expensive these days. Its not like they had no other choice they just couldnt be bothered!
 
legaldancer said:
I think that they well might be in touch on their return from holiday as it seems a little strange to have given him back without asking for their £1200 back.

If they were going on holiday they will have wanted 'rid' of the horse before going & some time to rethink things.

If they have given back his passport then that does suggest they have given him to you, but the 'keeper' should have the passport anyway AFAIK.
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Plus who buys a horse sold as seen and then decides to return it and get a refund? I dont think private sales work that way...i see it that i purely saved him from the death penalty that he did not deserve. If i was only after money I would be selling him on? Which I have NO intention of.
 
To be honest, if you are not keen on hacking him I reckon you could probably fairly easily loan him from where he is kept now. he doesn't sound like an issue to me from what you have described. I have had my horse 16 years and he still can and does occasionally do a runner when he's being led. I KNOW what signs to look for then as I can see in his eyes when he's feeling in 'that' mood! Lol. It's just part of him and his personality and he makes up for it by actually being 100% trustworthy when you're on board (although he too is spooky). There is no malice, he's just an intellingent horse who needs stimulation and likes to be kept busy I guess.

Yours sounds quite similar and it sounds like these people took on more horse then they could handle as is often the case and often the seller gets branded a liar as the purchasers won't admit their own lack of ability/knowledge. It is always someone else's fault. These cases really annoy me - people seem to expect horses to be machines. they are not - they change due to different environments, different people. It can have a huge effect on some horses' behaviour.
 
Sounds like the horse has taken one look at you and your OH and breathed a huge sigh of relief. Reading the comments of the purchasers I wouldnt be surprised if they just wrote off the money and were happy to be rid of him. If they were happy to pts with all the associated costs and no return in cash then I think its a bit rich to ask you to cough up!
 
spaniel said:
Sounds like the horse has taken one look at you and your OH and breathed a huge sigh of relief. Reading the comments of the purchasers I wouldnt be surprised if they just wrote off the money and were happy to be rid of him. If they were happy to pts with all the associated costs and no return in cash then I think its a bit rich to ask you to cough up!
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Thank you Spaniel. This is exactly how I feel... from a legal point of view I may take advise should they "contact" me again. x
 
i would definately go to a solicitor and get their advice and then look at getting it all sorted legally so that in 5 years time it can't can't come and bite you on the arse!! To me it doesn't sound like you misled them and you have taken him back at your expense rather than let them put him to sleep, as i said tho just make sure you have something drawn up so that they can't come back later on and demand silly amounts of money and such like:)
 
I feel a bit sorry for the horse in all of this.
From what you say you told them about his issues before he went, and sold him as seen.They are on a hiding to nothing having kept him all that time then when the going got tough decided to hand him back.
To many folks think they can take on a horse with issues then find out they dont have the skills or time to deal with them, dealing yards are full of them.
I'm glad you have him back, it sounds like he needs some consistencey in his handling and his work from an experienced person who isnt going to be put off by his nonsense, failing that he will probably end up at a dealers as a trade in which is a shame
 
Maybe they needed someone to look after him while on holiday!
Make an appointment with a specialist Equine solicitor immediately and get a solicitors letter in the post to them which will be there on their return.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Maybe they needed someone to look after him while on holiday!
Make an appointment with a specialist Equine solicitor immediately and get a solicitors letter in the post to them which will be there on their return.
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that would be a good idea if i had their address! I have his work address?! They dont have my address just my old livery yard and my business address?! hmmm its a bit of an awkward one!
 
sgcoolchick said:
He came back covered in cuts which had not been attended, his coat was dull and in a sorry condition- i sent him off looking like a show horse! he had a lovely shiny coat, he was sad and sorry, and his feet were in a state, one shoes had been ripped off and half his hoof missing with nails still in the foot, toes were long and it seems he still had the shoes on i sent him in (my farrier informed me of this)- so it looks like he was not being properly cared for anyway. So he has returned, calm and sorry, living with 1 other gelding and he seems happy after a week of being pampered. I had not heard from the owners and yesterday I had an email, basically accusing me of lying about his temperment around mares, etc and that I told them he was fine- but he was....and they even bought him in from the field when he was turned out with another mare! They said they are going away for a couple of weeks and will "be in touch" I am now a little concerened they are going to try and take me to court or something! I have his passport, they emailed me asking to confirm i would take full responsibility for him now, and i also asked them to sign a document which said "sold as seen". They have even admitted that in the emails. What should I do? I can not afford to pay them back and I am left with a horse I will not ride and is going to be retired to the farm. Where do I stand?
Thanks for reading! x
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Did you happen to take pictures of him when he was returned to show that he hadn't been cared for whilst they had him, just in case, you then have proof of neglect?
 
Yup, sorry, further to previous post.

Re. the neglect issue. Personally I'd be inclined to get a vet to look him over and to give a report on his condition, then you can always use that as ammunition for the future if needed.

Also note how much £ you've had to spend to get him right, like vets fees/shooeing etc. Cover yourself.
 
I'd say get some legal advice before you do anything at all. Before worrying about photo evidence, writing letters, paying for vets to come out... get legal advice. If need be you can contact him via work, but find out the right way to go about this first?
 
Don't always assume that "buyer beware" stands up in court, it didn't for me and mine was a private sale. I too was 100% honest it was the buyer who was the lier. The judge had absolutely no knowledge of horses and said when there is reasonable doubt I will always side with the claimant. So it's not always that simple. And I did seek legal advice from a solicitor, insurance companies legal advice line and consumer direct all said that they couldn't win. As the pony only has to be as described and not suitable for purpose.
 
Gosh you don't sound to be havng much luck at all :-( Try not to worry and remember to cover your back

Nothing more to add but I hope it all works out for you
 
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