help am confused....cribbing windsucking or both???? sorry bit long

[juevans]

have been reading what i could find posted with regards to cribbing and windsucking as i have just bought a 21 months old section c gelding and he does either one or the other or both and need advice now please... dont know if he as just started it cause of new home or not spoke to previous owners they said they hadnt seen him do it with them....but then they would and to be fair i never saw him do it in stable when i went to view him and there was plenty of wood about. i have put half a large plastic pipe over top of his door but he still does it on that but at least he isnt damaging his teeth he grips on and then makes a very quiet grunt noise he only does it when holding onto something and it doesnt sound like a gulp of air at all so unsure of wether its classed as cribbing and windsucking he doesnt strip the wood or not that i av noticed i think he seems to do it more for attention when im around or cause hes bored/stressed took him to an in hand show at weekend and whilst watching other classes in fenced ring if too near fence he would try to get an hold of it....not good dont kno wot to do really av tried collar dont like them worried all time he wore it and to be fair it didnt stop him so at min if i catch him i squirt him with water !!! which stops him only av to pick up bottle now and he moves away from door but dont really want to bully him out of it so do i leave him doing it or not????? any advice or tips welcome btw he is on ad lib haylage and hard feed

 

[Judie]

Hi, sorry to hear you are having problems. It does sound like he is windsucking I'm afraid and if he is wanting to do it out at a show I would suspect it is stress or insecurity driven, it can often start when foals are weaned too early. My advice would be not to resort to the water treatment as he will only find other places to do it, he really should be out 24/7 and with company, is he? Windsuckers don't do well being stabled I'm afraid. If he does it in the field you will need to cribox the fencing and ensure he has plenty to eat, and again some good old company. If he didn't do it in his previous home perhaps you could ask them, if you haven't already, what his daily routine was, did he live out with them etc,hopefully when he feels more settled he will stop but it is a hard one to cure I'm sorry to say, not a problem to deal with really if you're on your own yard but if on a livery yard you will have to harden up to others making comments about it. We've had many decent windsuckers, the only problem is keeping weight on them.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

[Haniki]

My friend used a 'miracle' anti wind sucking collar on her daughter's horse when it was stabled.

 

[juevans]

thanks for your reply...mmm ....not good then! i do think like you its an insecurity issue not knowing me/new place etc his background is ... i bought him from showing home in wales they had him from 4months old so weaned early like you say he was gelded as yearling as he was naughty...which i can beleive he still as an attitude now was turned out over winter ruffed off with mares think to put him in his place brought in 2 weeks before i bought him so not used to stabling obviously....im on livery yard with 2 hours turn out 3 days a week at moment so nothing i can do about that thankfully he is not facing any other horses on yard and next to my other horse so no complaints as yet fingers xd my intention is to turn him out 24/7 from may to oct and maybe he may settle (wishfull thinking)

 

[CBAnglo]

Yes, that sounds like windsucking I am afraid. The usual things to worry about are teeth (he is a youngster so you will need to have these done regularly anyway but I have my wondsucker's teeth done every 6 months and he probably only has the chance to windsuck a dozen times in that period) and also keeping weight on and colic. Also, you will have to report this to the insurance company and they may exclude a lot of things.

I would be surprised if he developed this just with you. It tends to affect geldings (mostly TBs) who are in highly stressful situations (race horses/competition horses), who get a lot of cereal based hard feed (competition mixes etc) and also who have been weaned too early. There are lots of studies about whether this behavious is copied but I dont think it is. However, better safe than sorry so I woudl start criboxing everything and put a collar on. I am afraid for the collar to be effective it has to be on rather tight. It will cause rubs so get lots of sheepskin sleeves and use these to reduce them.

My boy only windsucks after feeding times (suspected gastric ulcers) and any other time he doesnt bother (he has lots of hay and toys in his stable). However I always keep his collar on, as I dont want him damaging his teeth. Also, I would rather he spent his time eating than windsucking so that he keeps his weight on.

I would speak to the previous owners. I think they knew full well that he winduscked and as this a vice they should have disclosed it to you and I am afraid it will virtually halve his value.

Look at his feed - dont give him any cereals and I avoid sugar and garlic as this upsets my boy. It means he gets an antacid as a treat (get the mint ones!) and these seem to settle his stomach more. I did various tests with mine, and when I had him all nice and relaxed (usually after work) I would watch him without his collar. Sometimes he went for 4 hours without trying to windsuck, so I would give him a polo. Straightaway he was on the nearest thing trying to windsuck.

Good luck with him and do the research!

 

[Judie]

[ QUOTE ]
....not good then!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry didn't mean to make it sound like that, however:

I really don't think though 2 hours turn out three days a week is going to help I'm afraid, if anything it is going to make a professional out of him

is there anywhere you can turn him out with some other youngsters until May? It may be the best thing you will ever do for him, not wanting to start a debate here but a 2yro, whether it windsucks or not, should not only have 6 hours turn out a week if there is any alternative.

Given that he is in, I would give him as many toys and things to occupy his mind as possible, I know nothing about the benefits of stable mirrors, maybe some one who has used them could offer some help, but they may be worth looking into. How close is your other horse to him, can they touch and groom each other over the stable partition or anything?

Roll on May

 

[zelli]

sorry.... this is one of my pet hates, so here it goes... He is not wind sucking because wind sucking is when a horse arches his nuck and gulps in air without holding onto anything, crib biting is when the horse does this with something between his teeth, wind sucking is usually a progression on from crib biting, and when they just hold the wood between there teeth/take a chunk out, this would be classed as wood chewing.

Ok that said, contact the owners and ask them to be honest with you, you have a month between the horse starting a vice and them becomming addicted the endorphins it releases (when carrying out vices horses produce an endorphin which has the same affect that smoking dope does on a human). Therefore, if it honestly has only started since youve had him you need to act asap otherwise you are making your life harder in the long run. Try and get him out, it will be interesting to see if that makes a difference, alot of horses will stll do it in the field if they are addicts. Good luck with it, but at the end of the day your main problem is teeth, as research is suggesting, that although some horses are more prone to colic, there may not be that strong a link between the two...

 

[CBAnglo]

Most windsuckers need to hold onto something to gulp in the air (through arching neck etc). Some windsukcers develop the ability, through years of practice, to be able to windsuck without holding onto something.

I have seen an absolutely chronic windsucker who used to windsuck on the other horses in the field. It did not matter if he was in or out, but I agree, in the majority of cases as much turnout as possible is required.

You can usually tell a chronic windsucker (if it is old enough) by the muscles it develops - when I went to see mine, he didnt windsuck once when I was there (2 hours on the first visit and 3 hours on the second) and didnt windsuck being loaded or in the lorry. Took him home and within 10 minutes he was on the stable door. I had been told he windsucked when highly stressed or after a meal. They never fed him (he was skin and bones) and lived out 24/7 hence why he didnt windsuck when I was there!

 

[chriscrogul]

This mix up is one that makes me go GRRRR! When cribbiting they clasp something with their teeth and suck wind in. Windsucking is the same action but they don't need to clasp anything with their teeth, maybe just hooking their jaw over something handy like a door (or pony). Chewing surfaces is something entirely different. Whatever the cause (and there are plenty of theories) surely what the horse does in his own time is his business, as long as he's doing the job you got him for (unless it was to stand motionless in his box all day)! And young horses should have maximum turnout for their health and mental wellbeing. I own a sucker and it doesn't bother me at all!

 

[Shilasdair]

Ok, your horse crib bites, not windsucks, as he is holding on to a surface. This behaviour is a symptom, not a 'vice', usually of excess stomach acid caused by diet high in cereal after weaning (study by Uni of Bristol, I think Waters and Nicholl, but I could be wrong). The horse crib bites in order to swallow saliva and thus buffer the stomach acid (horses cannot drool like dogs so must bite on something to trigger saliva). Crib collars leave your horse in considerable pain from acid in their stomachs, but with no mechanism to neutralise it, so are often considered cruel.
As a solution, try to turn your youngster out 24/7 with friends, on a grass and hay diet, cut out cereals (mixes, cubes), try to make sure he always does have access to hay.
Please DO NOT use a cribbing collar (poor baby), cribox or any of the other IMO barbaric physical prevention methods.
You can also give antacids as someone said above...but best to ask your vet first.
S

 

[Capriole]

have a look at the global herbs website for anti-suck and global-vite, for his tummy

 

[CBAnglo]

The problem is, if she is on a livery yard the other liveries will not want her horse windsucking next to theirs. Most people are very old fashioned when it comes to vices and so you have to put a collar on.

Also, livery yard owners do not like windusckers damaging the tops of doors etc so again, crib boxing everything is much better than putting a collar on when you are with him in the stable.

I dont like using a collar and I dont like the rubs my boy has from it. However, the vet said to me that by the condition of his teeth she was surprised that he windsucked at all (unfortunately he does though!) and that he kept his weight remarkably well (when I eventually got it on him!). And there are various studies that say windsucking is connected with colic etc so it is better to be safe than sorry.

There are various supplements you could also try - I tried them all with mine and didnt see a difference (he rarely does it anyway because I monitor what he eats) but I found antacids do help.

 

[juevans]

still not sure which it is ,,,,, av to say i tend to think its the crib biting as one of the others on the yard had a tb that windsucked and she said it was lots louder than mine it just seems bizarre to me that he could have it at all so young and hes not even a highly strung type he fully papered well bred section c.
what annoys me most is not even the fact he does it but that the people that sold him to me didnt tell me,why o why cant people be honest is it too much to ask????? when iv sold my ponies on i tell the potential buyer everything for the horses sake more than anything..!! aaarrrggghhh its very annoying
i appreciate what you have all said about turn out but its not an option i wish it was but no where around here as full turn out at winter so thats out im going to look at his diet though i read an article yesterday that said the winergy equilibrium is supposed to be good so wondered if anyone had tried it at moment he is on d and h build up pink powder graze on and allen and page fast fibre and sumo so only thing that could be cereal based is the build up cubes ,,,need to check bag tomorro unless anyone else knows save me scrabbling around in bin

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, if she is on a livery yard the other liveries will not want her horse windsucking next to theirs. Most people are very old fashioned when it comes to vices and so you have to put a collar on.
<font color="blue">Then perhaps the other owners need educating...

</font>
Also, livery yard owners do not like windusckers damaging the tops of doors etc so again, crib boxing everything is much better than putting a collar on when you are with him in the stable.
<font color="blue">Poor horse </font>

I dont like using a collar and I dont like the rubs my boy has from it. However, the vet said to me that by the condition of his teeth she was surprised that he windsucked at all (unfortunately he does though!) and that he kept his weight remarkably well (when I eventually got it on him!). And there are various studies that say windsucking is connected with colic etc so it is better to be safe than sorry.
<font color="blue"> GI pain is thought to be the cause, not the effect of cribbing in any study I've read. About 50 yrs ago, they had a fond theory that horses swallowed air...and thus colicked, but that's slightly er...antiquated now. And I've yet to see a thin cribber/windsucker. </font>

There are various supplements you could also try - I tried them all with mine and didnt see a difference (he rarely does it anyway because I monitor what he eats) but I found antacids do help.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Agreed.
S

</font>

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
still not sure which it is ,,,,, av to say i tend to think its the crib biting as one of the others on the yard had a tb that windsucked and she said it was lots louder than mine it just seems bizarre to me that he could have it at all so young and hes not even a highly strung type he fully papered well bred section c.
what annoys me most is not even the fact he does it but that the people that sold him to me didnt tell me,why o why cant people be honest is it too much to ask????? when iv sold my ponies on i tell the potential buyer everything for the horses sake more than anything..!! aaarrrggghhh its very annoying
i appreciate what you have all said about turn out but its not an option i wish it was but no where around here as full turn out at winter so thats out im going to look at his diet though i read an article yesterday that said the winergy equilibrium is supposed to be good so wondered if anyone had tried it at moment he is on d and h build up pink powder graze on and allen and page fast fibre and sumo so only thing that could be cereal based is the build up cubes ,,,need to check bag tomorro unless anyone else knows save me scrabbling around in bin

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't really matter whether he cribs or windsucks, they are pretty much the same thing in all but degree. Perhaps you could move your boy to a yard where he can live out, or rent a field for him. You can't keep him in for the next three plus years....adult horses can at least be exercised, but your boy is going to be unhappy.
There's a good chance he didn't do it with his last owners if he was still on the mare and/or turned out in company as many studs do. It's a reaction to the environment, and management, not a personality defect, after all.
I do hope you find some way to resolve his welfare issues.
S

 

[Chestnuttymare]

This debate has raged for years lol. There will always be varying opinions of course. My ex racer cribs/sucks whatever. She can do it by placing her top teeth on something and sucking, or she can do it without a leaning post. She will do it in the stable, or in the field. a true professional lol. I had her checked for ulcers etc, not got any, there is no medical reason that the vet knows of. She is a reasonably steady weight, (certainly no better or worse than other friends with tbs) teeth are in good order, never had colic. I got her a miracle collar when i firat got her, she had it on once and i promised never to put it on her again. I see it as a habit, like having a cig after a meal. I don't have any probs with people on yard about it. I did ask someone not to flick her nose when she did it as i don't have a problem with her doing it! She has lovely manners on the ground, lovely to ride etc (mostly). 100% in traffic etc. Oh and stunningly gorgeous!! If sucking a bit of air is the worst she does then fine, i can think of worse 'vices'.
She has been doing it for years. I don't know if it is possible to stop a youngster.

 

[zelli]

I feed my baby equilibrium growth and highly recommend it, its a lovely feed, wonderful quality and so simple to feed not to mention the fact that he will actually eat it, unlike other feeds i tried (hes a fussy boy!)

 

[Bounty]

This is a topic which drives me mad!
I take the same sort of stance as Shilasdair (though unfortunatley can't turn out 24/7) and think it is verging on cruelty, physical and psychological, to prevent a horse from doing it... it is doing it for a reason!
I have to say I was horrified when I picked my new lady up a fortnight ago to find that her owners had been using a collar on her, leaving her with open sores which were oozing green pus and gunk down her neck and face

She was also on a very high energy diet.... a 3yo that isn't in work!
Since she's been here she's moved onto a fibre only diet, with adlib haylage which is hung in two nets at opposite sides of the stable, and also some fed from the floor, which means she can browse a little rather than being fed from one place. In terms of hard feed she's having a mixture of AlfaA and HiFi with a balancer and unmollassed sugar beet.
She has gone from a mare that did it obsessively the first few days to one that only does it occassionally... and I am thrilled

The other thing that winds me up is antacids that are added to feeds...... what is the point?! If the horse is eating then it is producing it's own buffer (saliva) anyway, so the antacid is irrelevant, the owner would bebetter off spending their money on more forage. Antacids that are syringed so that they can be given between feeds are so much more beneficial.

Gah! I think this may have been my first rant

 

[juevans]

think i av to agree with the "leave him to it " brigade im afraid i dont want to use a collar on him only put one on for one night and felt cruel also there are worse vices imho door banging drives me mad i have to say...but thats another thread
zelli thats the one im going to try him on how old/big is your little one and how much do you feed?
roll on may when he can have his 24/7 turn out

cant wait...!!!