Help and advice :(

MontyandZoom

MontyandZoom

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I'm really worried about Monty boy
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. He is an 'aged' tb gelding that I have had for 3 years. I say aged since we are not certain of his exact age but two different EDTs have put him around the 30 mark.

He came to me in an awful state, skin and bone, and is a poor doer. He currently lives out 24/7 with 20 other horses. This suits him very well. When i shared him before I was given him he was stabled at night but spent the whole night box-walking and weaving and would be covered in sweat in the morning. He also was very stiff behind.

He is rugged up well and is nice and warm. He has a breakfast of sugarbeet and barley rings soaked in warm water and dinner consists of a scoop of alfa a oil, scoop of barley rings, scoop of sugarbeet and a mug of balancer. I have now added linseed too. He has hay during the day that the farmer puts out which lasts until I get there in the evening.

The last two weeks he has dropped some weight and is looking quite ribby
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I don't know what to do. I have asked someone to feed him at midday but they can't get him out of the field since he is stubborn as hell and won't budge if there is hay in the field
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Alot of people have suggested I stable him at night so I can get some more hay/hay replacer into him but he is awful to stable. Also, he doesn't deal with change well and even swapping fields means he paces up and down for weeks. He is now the happiest and most settled he has ever been so i don't want to cause more weight loss by moving him.

That would also mean trying to find somewhere in West London to move him and Zoom to that won't cost the earth.

I'm at a loss.
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Should I move him or just persevere?
 
If poss, I would feed him 3 times a day, morning, lunch and dinner. If that isn't possible, I would increase his morning and evening feeds.
Is it possible to replace hay with haylage for more calories?
Has he been wormed recently, and also have you had his teeth checked recently (past 6 months)?
I wouldn't move him, or stable him. If he seems happy where he is, then I would leave him be, moving will only stress him out which would probably cause more weight loss.
 
He had his teeth done in September and the dentist is happy not to see him until next september (there is some work that would be done if he weren't so old but they decided his remaining teeth may fall out if they did it!!)

He gets very large feeds and I don't think he would manage any more (gets a full bucket). Perhaps I could try a different feed? Although this seems to be the best combo i have tried so far.

I am hoping he will be less of an arse so someone can feed him in the day but he is a planter and won't come out of the field.
 
It's been so uncharacteristically cold over the last 2 weeks though so it's maybe not surprising that he's lost a bit. I would be inclined to add another rug I think, just to make sure he isn't using up any energy trying to keep warm. Is he getting enough access to the hay that is out or do the other horses prevent him from getting to it? Can he be bribed to leave the field with a treat maybe, so that he can be fed at lunch time?

I wouldn't stable him if he hates it, just (sounds so simple
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) need to find a way to get more feed into him. Any way he can have haylage overnight?
 
Why not look at feeding a specific veteran feed or conditioning feed (D&H Build up is excellent).

How much haylage are you giving him, and are you sure he's actually able to stand and eat as much as he wants without being pushed off it?
 
If he is happy where he is then keep him there as he is well settled there.
I would try to gradually introduce him to one of the veteran mix feeds.
Also as above get a vet to check him out especially his teeth. Get a worm count done. (Encystead emerging red worms will not be detected by a worm count so a blood test would be required.) (Do not worm him unecessarily due to his age). Good luck.
 
From seeing your previous posts and how careful you are with both of yours I'm assuming that teeth worming etc is up to date.

Are you sure he is getting enough of the hay that's going out? With 20 horses in the field, can you be certain that the younger ones aren't bullying him and stopping him from getting to the hay? How does the farmer distribute it? I always go by the rule of one pile per horse plus 20% extra so for 20 horses I'd have 20 piles of hay plus another 4 piles so that those who finish first have other piles to eat instead of chasing a vulnerable horse away.

If all the above is ok, I'd persevere for a while if changing things could make him worse. Once (if) it warms up a bit he'll probably pick up again. Could you take a day or two off work to be there for a lunchtime feed and help your friend encourage him out of the field? Surely once he realises he's getting fed and going straight back to the hay he'd be more inclined to come out and your friend could manage it alone? I'd maybe try a conditioning feed as well and I think I read somewhere that corn oil is the one with the highest calories in it so that might be better than linseed? You can feed up to 200ml of oil a day which seems a lot to me
 
I think you need to take a more scientific approach to his feed if condition is dropping off. Maybe change the sugarbeet for something like calm and condition or a coconut based feed that you soak for a little more nutrition.
the feed company helplines could offer some suggestions, they are perched by the phones just waiting for calls like this

Does he have good access to the hay in the field or is he being chased off by other horses?
 
Good that you've had his teeth checked etc, but september was quite some time ago, so he may have developed a problem since then. You can't always see things like abcesses, infections etc. Also, if something has got a bit sharp he may have sores inside his cheeks etc.

Another feed may help, there are lots of weight gain products, many specifically for veterans. I would advise calling or emailing feed companies and ask their advice. Obviously they ase all going to recommend their own products but it will give you an idea whats out there.

Other than that, a blood test can be useful, I have seen quite a few horses in the past who have been a bit poor that just needed a vitamin B boost, a short course of jabs of this can help no end. Or a visit from a nutritionalist if everything else gets covered.

I have got veterans now and my last one was into his 30's before he died. I know how worrying it can be, so good luck
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Thanks for all the replies.

We have a good worming programme at the field so i'm not too worried about that although I will look into getting a worm count done.

He gets more hay than the others since, despite his age, he is Mr Boss man in the field!
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I have no choice on the hay since the farmer puts it out and it is his own. Before xmas, they were in a field that had a smaller sectioned off bit that my two were in. I was giving them extra hay at night which I am not doing now we are in the big field.

I have some leccy fencing so was thinking about asking the farmer if i could section my two off but;

1) I don't think he'll go for it
2) I am worried the other horses may try to get in since some are unrugged and not fed at all and are quite hungry. I am worried it could be a hazard.

I will try the veteran mixes. He is a bit of a hot-head so any non-heating recommendations greatly received.
 
No, don't section them off - it just caused problems.

How are they being fed the hay?? Will he come in for an hour in the morning to eat his breakfast and have a nice net before being turned out again????
 
They are in a huge field and the farmer puts the hay out in lots of small piles on the floor.

He has a net that i give him after dinner so i will see if he will stand in for longer in the morning to have some........however, he usually gallops off to the other side where the herd are standing waiting for the tractor after brekkie so he may not be too keen.

I have to say i am green with envy at the posts of 'does he look fat'! To make matters worse, i am going to Gambia for two weeks at the end of January and don't want to come back to a bag of bones!
 
Would be tempted to give one of the feed nutritionalist a call and see what they say. Nicola at TopSpec is extremely good and helpful if you wanted some advice. And agree there is only so much hard feed they can have in one feed so perhaps as has been suggested put another rug on as it has been so cold for so long now - it was -14.5 here for a couple of days
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I tried calm and condition with mine recently as he was dropping a bit of weight - its been brilliant his coat looks FAB and he's actually put weight on in this weather. I'm not even feeding him the recommended amount either - 1 scoop of C & C and 1 of alpha A. People are asking me what I feed him because he looks so good.
 
how much linseed are you feeding? my TB gets 2 big mugs a day, also dont forget if he's on such a high oil diet you need to supplement his vit e and selenium (naf do a combined supp which i use).

just upping from 1 1/2 to 2 mugs a day made a massive difference to my boy so try upping what you're feeding by 1/2 a mug or so.great thing is that linseed isnt bulky so wont make his feed any bigger really.
 
Sounds to me as if this is pretty easily resolved then.

Change his feed to a specific veteran or conditioning feed.

Ensure that he's getting plenty of hay. 20 horses means around 25 - 30 good piles of hay to ensure that everyone gets some. (Time to lend the farmer a hand me thinks....) And of course - I think we're all assuming that the horses get hayed both ends of the day - if not there's your prime culprit for the weight loss.
 
Its so hard isnt it?! I have a similar one who is only 12. Have you tried Outshine? Its very high in oil and seemed to be only thing to put weight on my lad last winter. I fed it with Top Spec balancer and speedibeet but you could use a veteran conditioning mix with it plus sugarbeet and a high oil chaff such as Mollichaff showshine or Alfafa Oil and the barley rings. Mine wouldnt eat large volumes of food anyway so had to keep the 2 feeds he had a day very small but packed with as much calories as I could. Alternatively you could just add cornoil or soya oil neat (again mine wouldnt eat a very oily dinner!)

Maybe also add a probiotic just to ensure his guts are working as well as they should...

Also do you have access to haylage? Maybe everytime you bring him in even just to groom or whilst you do jobs give him a haylage haynet. Or even just on days when you can spend a bit more time.

Would also check his warmth, maybe a Snuggyhood turnout may help. Horses loose a lot of heat from their necks....

Personally I wouldnt move him or try and stable him if he is settled as stress can make them drop a lot of weight very quickly.

Anyway a few ideas for you, hope you find a solution
 
Thanks for all the help guys.

Sallysmith - I agree that the lack of hay at night is what has caused him to drop
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That is why i thought of sectioning them off since when they were in their own field I could hay at will! Unfortunately there is no option for the farmer to give hay at night since the others are tight bastards!!!

I will try some calm and condition, perhaps I could replace the sugarbeet in the morning with it.

With regards to rugging. I am tempted to leave him alone.....I know it sounds silly since he must be losing for a reason but he is in a 300g turnout with an undercosy on and he feels very warm. I am worried since if he sweats at all under his rug he gets scabs since his skin is sensitive.

I will go and try and source some haylage this weekend and do a feed shopping mission (I have my feed delivered but have just ordered).
 
I have my similar TB on topspec senior - which includes a joint supplement and digestive support - and their cool condition cubes mixed with sugarbeet and graze on. If your boy's teeth are compromised you could soak the cubes into a mash. I would be looking to get as much dense nutrition into him as you can in one bucket so for instance, if my horse was dropping off I'd up the cubes and drop the bulking agents.

As you say, its not so easy getting lots of feeds into him each day while he's out in a herd - mine will not "do" breakfast whatsoever for starters!
 
My old boy was very thin (lost about 1/4 of his bodyweight after an illness, think RSPCA advert look) and what I think helped was Saracen Equijewel which is a feed additive. Cannot obviously say that it did as it may just have been generally eating that got him back (he barely ate for about 8 weeks when really ill) but it is the one thing that was recommended to me. He had this in conjunction with a good veteran mix, vegetable oil and sugar beet. It is a shame you cannot get the three feeds a day as that would help but unfortunately very often horses just do not help themselves (as well we all know).
 
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Thanks for all the replies.

We have a good worming programme at the field so i'm not too worried about that although I will look into getting a worm count done.



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We have a very strict worming programme at our yard yet one older horse was recently confirmed to have tape worm for which you need a blood test, so don't be lulled into a false sense of security by your worming programme. Due to his age, he will be more susceptible and weightloss and inability to gain weight as well as a dull coat etc are all signs of tapeworm...

His feeds sound rather large so I would look at finding a way to split them into 3 feeds a day if possible as much of it will probably be going straight in one end and out the other at present. I'd also look at changing some of his feed...

I would ask farmer about the leccy fencing - nothing ventured nothing gained! and if you put the hay as far away from the main field as possible - i.e. along the perimeter fence line, you are reducing the temptation for the others...
 
Hey
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We had this problem with our oldie Sassy a few years ago she just dropped weight despite feed adlib hay... we had bloods taken, her worming and teeth all up to date... the vet recommend just changing feed, she was already on a veteran mix so we changed to Old Faithful and she put weight back on in a matter of days ?? But If you ever need a stable just ask
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Before changing any feeds please work out the exact energy levels and quantities of what you are feeding, as in order to gain weight you will need to increase the overall energy level of the diet and some of the suggestions made on this thread will not do this. (To put on weight a horse needs more energy in its diet than it is using for day to day living)

Firstly, feed as much hay (fibre) as he will eat. Digestion of fibre produces more heat than any other feed when it is digested. if you need to feed fibre in another way, e.g fast fibre/chaff then you can leave the horse with large quantities because it is fibre with minimal starch. It is large starch feeds that should be avoided due to the risk of spilling over into the hindgut. Large fibre feeds are ok.


Your current feeds are- barley rings 12.7 DE mj/kg, Alfa a oil 12.5 DE and unmollassed sugar beet is 11-12.5 depending on the brand. Therefore if you replace the sugar beet for calm and condition you would actually be giving the same energy level as sugar beet (12.5 DE) but with much more starch (its 19% in C&C, next to nothing in SB) and lower fibre (at least 6% lower), which wont benefit your horse at all. Starch is what will cause digestive upset, excitability, risk of laminitis, etc

You need to look for higher energy alternatives, preferably low starch ones, to make every mouthful more beneficial for putting on weight . Ideas-

Low starch, high energy-
Triple crown triple top up (Badminton horsefeeds) DE 14.5 mj/kg
Copra coolstance DE 15

Badminton conditioning nuggets are 13.5 mj/kg but i dont know the starch level. They wouldnt be higher than the barley rings though, so you could swap the barley rings for them and you would increase energy but wouldnt increase the starch level.

The additon of brewers yeast will help the digestive system utilise fibre better and wouldnt add bulk.

Most veteran feeds will be lower in energy than what you are feeding e.g 16+ is 11 mj/kg and old faithfulls is 11.5. Mixes are also much harder to eat for old and loose teeth. So you will see no benefit and actually be worse off switching to a veteran feed in your case.

Hope this helps.
 
Something similar happend to my TB not so long ago. She is 16h.

Changed her feed to Allen & Page Weight Gain (scoop and half morning and night) with two handfuls of chaff and I wormed her (as if from scratch).

The difference in two weeks was remarkable.
 
Shame hun. Always a worry these oldies. Mine is 26 and has been a nightmare to keep weight on all his life. Not being a great foodie doesn't help! *roll eyes*

Recently I moved house and could only get rye haylage. Con just didn't get on with it and lost a lot of weight. I tried upping his feed but he wasn't finishing it. Tried all the tricks I know and he still wasn't buying it. So being at the end of my tether I mentioned it to a friend of mine who had an oldie. She recommended Kentucky equine, "Equine Gold" It is not a balancer. It is stabilised rice bran. Very high calories, but not heating. I have to say it is pretty impressive stuff. He has put on the weight and seems to be holding very well. He could even start to compete with my OH on the belly front now.
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It is not cheap, but alls fair in the war of weight with these oldies.
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I fed Allen and Page weight gain when I got my youngster, and that put the weight on in no time. I woudl also recommend the Allen and Page Old faithful mix - that really helped our oldies.
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When we had my old (with useless teeth) pony we used ot feed him a mash of sugarbeet, high fibre cubes and stud cubes - this was the best diet for him by far - far better than the barley rings wehad tried previously. This pony couldn't eat hay so this food, and the bits of grass he got were virtually his whole diet!
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Could you also try and grass substitute such as readigrass or some alfa a in his feed?
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