HELP - Dangerous gelding and total loss of confidence!

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Barbie

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I bought an unbroken and pretty much unhandled four year old Connemara eight months ago and I was going to bring him on with the help of my other half who has done lots of breaking and schooling. I wasn't the most confident rider so I did all the ground work then left it to him to hop on. We've been going really well and I was at a stage when I could ride him on my own in the school, walk, trot, canter and was starting pole work. We've been on four different yards since I got him due to work and he's always settled really well but we moved yards three weeks ago and all hell has broken loose since then...

My horse was very interested in the mares who were in season and has been showing lots of stallion like behavioral. He even mounted one of the mares when I was leading him past (he's been rig tested and it's negative). He's now so attached to them that when I try to lead him away to take him to the school or the field he goes crazy. He rears up, strikes out at me, bites me and kicks out, it's getting dangerous. He now has a chifney in and is attached to a lunge line with the yard owner following behind with a lunge whip to drive him away from me if he get too aggressive but we still have fireworks every time.

He's better with my other half who is far bigger and stronger than me but he now lives three hours away so I'm stuck with a horse who I'm terrified of. I'm sure he'd be better with someone who is more confident and could dominate him but he's only 15hh so I'm not going to find a big strong man who wants to buy him. I'm being told by everyone to sell him but he's been my perfect horse for the last eight months so do I give up on him or keep going in the hope that he'll calm down eventually?? He's such a sweetheart in the stable and in the field.

He's been checked over by the vet several times, had his back and teeth checked. There is nothing physically wrong with him. What do I do??
 
Don't give up on him, there has to be a good reason for his change in behaviour.

How much turnout does he have, and does he have company?

What are you feeding him?
 
Keep him away from the mares.
When he misbehaves get after him with arm waving, swatting him with the coiled line and keep going until he thinks he is going to die and then carry on as if nothing had happened.

He has no respect for you or he would not do this.
 
Barbie said:
I bought an unbroken and pretty much unhandled four year old Connemara eight months ago and I was going to bring him on with the help of my other half who has done lots of breaking and schooling. I wasn't the most confident rider so I did all the ground work then left it to him to hop on. We've been going really well and I was at a stage when I could ride him on my own in the school, walk, trot, canter and was starting pole work. We've been on four different yards since I got him due to work and he's always settled really well but we moved yards three weeks ago and all hell has broken loose since then...

My horse was very interested in the mares who were in season and has been showing lots of stallion like behavioral. He even mounted one of the mares when I was leading him past (he's been rig tested and it's negative). He's now so attached to them that when I try to lead him away to take him to the school or the field he goes crazy. He rears up, strikes out at me, bites me and kicks out, it's getting dangerous. He now has a chifney in and is attached to a lunge line with the yard owner following behind with a lunge whip to drive him away from me if he get too aggressive but we still have fireworks every time.

He's better with my other half who is far bigger and stronger than me but he now lives three hours away so I'm stuck with a horse who I'm terrified of. I'm sure he'd be better with someone who is more confident and could dominate him but he's only 15hh so I'm not going to find a big strong man who wants to buy him. I'm being told by everyone to sell him but he's been my perfect horse for the last eight months so do I give up on him or keep going in the hope that he'll calm down eventually?? He's such a sweetheart in the stable and in the field.

He's been checked over by the vet several times, had his back and teeth checked. There is nothing physically wrong with him. What do I do??
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Is he living in the field with the mares?

Can you not separate them/ avoid the mares until he settles more?

Are you able to maybe move to a geldings only yard, it seems a shame after the work you've put into him to give up on him now especially if he really was doing so well with you before...
 
He's on the opposite side of the barn to the mares and his field isn't near them but he can see them, it's when he realises he can't see them any more that he kicks off. He's turned out from 7.30am to about 6pm with no hard feed at all and a hay net at night. He's turned out on his own because nobody will put their horses in with him.

You're right he definitely doesn't have any respect for me but he fights back at me when I tell him off so it's scary at times. Maybe I just need to man up and carry on. He's gone from being a complete plod to a lunatic in three weeks!
 
A few things here, all combining:

1. You've owned him 8 months and moved him to new yards FIVE times during those 8 months so he'll be feeling very insecure about his home setup.

2. Feeling insecure will mean he'll be looking for a constant in his life. His only constant is you and you've said already that you are unconfident about handling him so you are unable to give him any constancy in positive, calming vibes but instead will be giving off intermittent wobbly vibes, so to him you are another source of non-constancy in his life at the moment.

3. Your OH can handle him but your OH now lives 3 hours away so that's another non-constant in your neddy's life as OH has disappeared.

4. So the poor ned has no constants in his life and is finally shouting for help and trying to take charge of the situation for himself, not listening to you because you have had to keep moving him from place to place. He wants some constants so he's going to try and create them for himself. "I want this and I want that." And being with his own kind will seem the best decision he can make,including mounting the mares.


It's not unsolvable. If you recognise the causes, then you can take steps to address them. He has no constancy, therefore changing ground rules all the time, big environmental changes,etc. You need to take charge of providing him with constancy, reassurance and firm ground rules so that he feels he can put some trust in you and he can let you make the decisions and he can feel confident in you.

From where you are now, if you're feeling unconfident and are surrounded by people who are wary of him/you, you need to find a good, trustworthy trainer/person to inspire you both and to ward off the negativities coming at you both, and to keep you both safe as you progress and your environment (and your fellow liveries' environment) safe too.

And go back to basics. Basic handling, small detail - how does he lead in and out of stable, does he stand still for feet to be picked, does he move back when you deliver hay or food or does he barge you. Basic handling, basic manners. Make much of him when he does well. Rebuild your relationship on positivity between the pair of you. And always prepare for, and dress for success (correct clothing for you, plenty of time for whatever you are doing with him, right time of day, right time on the yard (with or without others about), right weather, etc, put everything in your favour first, have a plan for how you're going to work and what you're going to do with him. If it goes well, lots of praise, then quit. Don't push-on to do something else unplanned becase he;s being so well-behaved. Little and often.

Good luck!

PS at 4 years he's young. The mares may seem very exciting (and reassuring to him) esp if on previous yards he was with geldings or with no mares.

PS Plus he turned out on his own, out of sight of the other horses (who just happen to be mares) so he's young, insecure and been put into solitary confinement. He's going to over-react when he sees his own kind if he's being kept alone and out of sight of them...
 
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When I first got my young horse as a 4yo he had never been turned out with mares as my yard has herds of mare and geldings he got very excited. He wouldn't be caught, would tank off if you did catch him, would buck and rear being lead out the field, break free on the yard and spin in the gateways. He also got very 'sexy' when being schooled near mares and got kicked a few times in the field for getting too close to mares who didnt want his attention. We put in on a hormonal calmer, currently its Naughty Gelding but I did use Gold Labels Oestraban, which *I think* is stronger as its for hyperactive stallions but oh boy did it work!
He is so much calmer around mares and every spring, as I know whats coming, he goes striaght in the Naughty Gelding... Maybe worth a try?
 
Moving yards so many times in a short period of time is unsettling for any horse. Separation anxiety issues are difficult to manage, he is upset and getting tough or agressive back will only make things worse. You really need some professional help, he has frightened you (understandably) and you are not helping each other.
He was good before and will be again.
 
Before you bought him, did he live in an established herd?

Although it may seem illogical with a horse that is behaving badly around other horses, some horses are much better and more relaxed when kept in a medium to large herd. Some horses become very distressed when kept alone (individual turnout included in this case). I think it was Laurenbay on here who's mare transformed when she was put on individual turnout, but she returned to her normal, sweet self when put back in a herd.

I agree that he needs more training, but the root of the problem could be that he is actually very distressed.
 
Doesnt it make you mad when geldings, stallions get full of themselves in springtime which is only natural because its breeding time, just because he has no balls doesnt mean he doesnt know the difference between mares in season and those that arent, and yet no one ever moans about mares being in season which is the reason for all the problems. Poor boys.
 
putasocinit said:
Doesnt it make you mad when geldings, stallions get full of themselves in springtime which is only natural because its breeding time, just because he has no balls doesnt mean he doesnt know the difference between mares in season and those that arent, and yet no one ever moans about mares being in season which is the reason for all the problems. Poor boys.
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Really? No one ever moans about mares being in season? I wish I had a pound for every time I heard someone, in cyberspace or in meatspace, moaning about their mare's behaviour when she goes into season. I'd be able to buy this: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/05/07/fei-dressage-horse-sale-weltinos-magic.
 
I wouldn't let him go just yet - he's had a lot of changes to cope with in a short time. Does the yard have an arena? If so I'd take him right back to basics with the ground work and teach him to respect you.

Does the yard have a horse walker? If so I'd put him in there first and let him walk off a bit of energy before you start on with him (although I don't especially like horse walkers I do accept they have a part to play sometimes!).

One of mine can be very similar to how you describe left to his own devices but I find with plenty of exercise to let off steam (sometimes I lunge him for 20 mins before attempting to ride him) he's ok. The best thing I ever bought for him however was a rope halter. A soft marine ply one with knots on it (only one either side of his nose). This is sufficient for him to know he has to be respectful. He doesn't attempt to pull away, rear up or anything in the rope halter just walks nicely and so there is no pressure on him or me. I know a lot of people on here will condemn the use of this but it works for me and keeps me safe. It's also enabled me to work with him and gain the respect back.
 
I definately agree that you need to get a professional confident person to help you and some company for him in the field.

My horse was moved a few times before I found the right yard and to be fair the final move really was tough on him. It took time and the help of a confident person to get him back to his normal self. He is now as good as gold and turned out with geldings which was the best thing I ever did.

You can get him back but you need a confident and consistent person to help you and show him the way.

Good luck
 
You just need to be really consistent and fairly strict with his handling, sounds like he is feeling well as it is spring and starting to push boundaries. Get some help from a trainer to help you get confidence as they do pick up if you are nervous and just keep at it and he will come back in line.

My horse will always test his boundaries and if he gets away with an inch will take a mile and behave like he is possessed but if you keep on top of it and he knows what is/isn;t acceptable he is totally fine.

He is obviously being dominant and feels like what he is doing at the moment is successful.

Good luck
 
Suechoccy said:
A few things here, all combining:

1. You've owned him 8 months and moved him to new yards FIVE times during those 8 months so he'll be feeling very insecure about his home setup.

2. Feeling insecure will mean he'll be looking for a constant in his life. His only constant is you and you've said already that you are unconfident about handling him so you are unable to give him any constancy in positive, calming vibes but instead will be giving off intermittent wobbly vibes, so to him you are another source of non-constancy in his life at the moment.

3. Your OH can handle him but your OH now lives 3 hours away so that's another non-constant in your neddy's life as OH has disappeared.

4. So the poor ned has no constants in his life and is finally shouting for help and trying to take charge of the situation for himself, not listening to you because you have had to keep moving him from place to place. He wants some constants so he's going to try and create them for himself. "I want this and I want that." And being with his own kind will seem the best decision he can make,including mounting the mares.


It's not unsolvable. If you recognise the causes, then you can take steps to address them. He has no constancy, therefore changing ground rules all the time, big environmental changes,etc. You need to take charge of providing him with constancy, reassurance and firm ground rules so that he feels he can put some trust in you and he can let you make the decisions and he can feel confident in you.

From where you are now, if you're feeling unconfident and are surrounded by people who are wary of him/you, you need to find a good, trustworthy trainer/person to inspire you both and to ward off the negativities coming at you both, and to keep you both safe as you progress and your environment (and your fellow liveries' environment) safe too.

And go back to basics. Basic handling, small detail - how does he lead in and out of stable, does he stand still for feet to be picked, does he move back when you deliver hay or food or does he barge you. Basic handling, basic manners. Make much of him when he does well. Rebuild your relationship on positivity between the pair of you. And always prepare for, and dress for success (correct clothing for you, plenty of time for whatever you are doing with him, right time of day, right time on the yard (with or without others about), right weather, etc, put everything in your favour first, have a plan for how you're going to work and what you're going to do with him. If it goes well, lots of praise, then quit. Don't push-on to do something else unplanned becase he;s being so well-behaved. Little and often.

Good luck!

PS at 4 years he's young. The mares may seem very exciting (and reassuring to him) esp if on previous yards he was with geldings or with no mares.

PS Plus he turned out on his own, out of sight of the other horses (who just happen to be mares) so he's young, insecure and been put into solitary confinement. He's going to over-react when he sees his own kind if he's being kept alone and out of sight of them...
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What a sensibly thought out response! Someone who thinks like a horse and surely the right way to go rather than swatting him with a line until he wishes he was dead. That's the sure way to lose respect and make him fearful of you and your demands.
I know its not everyone's cup of tea but my horse will now be staying with me since I have been helped enormously by a Natural Horsemanship/ Parelli person. Now horse knows who is boss, he has respect and knows who he can turn to when anxious. Don't give up on your boy; there are plenty of reasons why he has changed and can now change again for the better.
 
Horses are herd animals. They need to have a group of familiar horses around them that they can trust with their lives.

You've moved him repeatedly, and I bet each time you moved him, he got a little bit more insecure, but you didn't notice because it wasn't big - he was just a bit edgy, a bit spooky.

You finally reached the tipping point, moved him again and he can't cope. So you react by completely isolating him from all other horses. His worst nightmare's come true. And then, just to make sure he feels really unsettled, you lead him in a bit that hurts if he does anything (adrenalin levels just went up a bit more...) and with someone behind him with a whip.

Can you see how every single thing has just hyped him up a bit more?

Find him a yard where he can have full turnout with a settled group (not a group where horses are coming and going all the time, with constant new additions) and let him settle. He will gradually feel more secure when he knows that he's not going to be made to be alone, and that he knows the horses around him well enough so that they're predictable. Then he can relax, get proper sleep, digest his food without constant heartburn (yes, stress and anxiety affects horses' digestions) - and pay attention to you without worrying that you're going to hurt him.

Then start, quietly, from the beginning, reassuring him that what he does with you is pleasant and predictable, not scary. You don't need to dominate him, you just need to understand his motivations for acting the way he is. If you want a bit more information, I would suggest having a look at my blog posts "The Castaway", "Space - the Final Frontier" and possibly "Let's talk about sex" ;) Links in my signature...
 
Whenever i have heard people moan about horses behaviour changes at yards, it has never been because mares are in season, it has always been, "that gelding thinks its a stallion, wonder if it was cut late, it shouldnt be acting like that its a gelding", i have obviously been at some strange yards.

As an example, my shettie who was gelded last year, was put out in the field with the shettie mares for a day, all was fine no problems then the mares came into season the next time he was put out with them, so he was interested in them, he couldnt help it they were standing backend in his face telling him to come on, well it wasnt the mares who were at fault, it was because my shettie was only gelded last year and how long until his hormones settle and oh dear oh dear, but it wasnt just the shettie being excited it was the gelding over the fence who had been gelded for 10 years that was also having a sniff, i rest my case.
 
We have a school but getting him up there is the challenge. Surprisingly he's actually pretty well behaved when he's ridden even though he doesn't particularly enjoy being worked so I don't feel like I need to lunge him to get on him. I've contemplated riding him down to the field instead of leading him but I'm not quite brave enough for that just in case he does kick off with me on board. He's really well mannered in the stable and in the field, walks straight up to me to be caught, stands to have his chifney put in, stands to be groomed, picks his feet up and stands back for me to bring in his hay. It's literally just leading him that's the problem.

All the moving hasn't been my choice, it's been three different jobs with a move home in between so out of my control and had I know I'd be moving so much I wouldn't have got a youngster in the first place.

He was bought from a herd of 40 horses so perhaps group turnout would help but it isn't possible on the current yard or any of the other yards near me and I really don't want to move him again. He's always been either on his own or with another gelding with no problems previously. He has a couple of geldings in the field next to him but shows no interest in them even when they come over to say hello. He's fixated on the mares.

If anyone knows any trainers in Cheltenham then let me know! The yard owner is really confident with him and I'm so scared of him now that she's having to babysit me up and down to the field twice a day. We only had one rear and one dead stop this morning which is the best so far but I don't know how much longer I can carry on for. I'm a complete nervous wreck.
 
Agree, if he could could be turned out in sensible company, preferably 24/7, I'm pretty confident that he would settle down and become manageable again.
 
Has you vet taken blood to see if he has retained cord, if he still has cord it would explain his rig behaviour. Rigs can be more of a problem than stallions.
 
I agree with everything Suechoccy has said. Your poor boy has lost all trust and respect in you because you have proved yourself to be an unreliable leader. He has been left with no option but to try to shape his own life and take matters into his own hands (hooves). He needs to feel secure and confident, and all this comes from feeling safe and having a predictable life. You have wrenched him away every time he has settled in a place. No wonder he doesn't want to be with you. You need to give him lots of time to settle. Don't move him again for a long long time. Certainly not until your bond is so strong, it will be easier for him to handle.

If you cannot provide him with a safe and constant settled life, then I think you need to question whether it is fair on the horse that you own one at all. Maybe you need to wait until your own life is more settled before owning a horse?
 
I'd get him turned out with another buddy ASAP - sounds like a very distressed little horse who's very insecure, horses are herd animals and it is not good to keep them on their own at all - being able to see other horses is not the same as being with them!
Once he's turned out with a buddy and has settled again as others have said go back to basics, he'll soon get into a routine again and be much happier - 5 yard changes in 8 months is a hell of a lot even for the most well trained horse let alone a baby!!!
 
Sorry to hear you are having problems with your horse. There's loads of good advice listed above, so I won't repeat that. But I will add that the grass has really come through in the last couple of weeks. Even my normally well behaved pony was a lunatic to lunge last night after having a few days off. Mine are only out for a few hours a day at the moment, partly because of their waistlines, but partly because I don't want them getting too fresh on the the grass. It just may be something to think about. Mine get nothing other than grass and high fibre haylage so I can tell the difference. Good luck. x
 
Barbie said:
Surprisingly he's actually pretty well behaved when he's ridden even though he doesn't particularly enjoy being worked so I don't feel like I need to lunge him to get on him.
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Lunging is an excellent way to create a willing and compliant horse who respects his handler, does as he's asked when he's asked, and is happy in his work. .

Barbie said:
He's really well mannered in the stable and in the field, walks straight up to me to be caught, stands to have his chifney put in, stands to be groomed, picks his feet up and stands back for me to bring in his hay. It's literally just leading him that's the problem.
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It's your problem, though. The horse is just being a horse. With a confident, competent handler, he would behave perfectly well I'm sure.

Handling horses is not about strength; it is down to confidence and ability.

Get yourself some help in learning how to handle young horses, and you should gain confidence and your horse will settle down.

Barbie said:
I'm a complete nervous wreck.
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This will certainly not be helping your horse's confidence.
 
Caol,are you serious no one ever moans about mares being in season? You don't visit here often then because mares get all the blame.

First off you have him totally on his own. That's not helping. He needs another no nonsense gelding. If you read the thread last night on mares and geldings last night you may have seen my post. A woman here has a gelding exactly the same. Exactly. He is with a gelding and next to geldings. For a year now he has been settled. Before that he was moved from field to field with mares as company too. No consistency. She had the rig tests as well. Not a rig. Once he had consistent turnout and consistent company and no mares near him he got better. But it actually took a couple of months.

Secondly he could use some vits and mins. He is a young horse. Not feed, but maybe some vits and mins in a handful of beet.

Thirdly, don't care how young he is or his back story, quit making excuses. Being young isn't one for sure. Not getting things or processing stuff is one thing. Dangerous behavoir is not being young and is never allowed. However, he has a real problem and can't think straight. He is on his own, moved all over the shop, has hormone issues, and is frustrated. You are scared of him. That's not a crime by the way. But until he gets his living sorted he isn't going to improve much. I watched the owner of the gelding I describe go through heck. She was so upset. But there was no quick fix. It was giving him consistency and confidence and no mares near. I did a lot of the handling to and from the field. It did take a months. Man handling him to and from a lonely field likely won't change much.

Don't give up are easy words to say but you have think beyond handling. His situation needs sorted.

Terri
 
Im sorry but being moved so many times, suddenly having "education" hes confused. head mixed up . he needs firm consistent(and i dont mean hitting etc) handling. go right back to basics. right back and give him him some security. hes young head must wonder if hes safe. think horse . put self in his head see it through his eyes :)
 
People can "think like a horse" all they like, it still boils down to not allowing a horse to kick, bite, barge or otherwise be disrespectful, EVER. Sorry, this is an absolute: horses are 10 times bigger, faster and more reactive than humans, they are NOT allowed to behave in this way. It really doesn't matter why he's doing it; he's got to stop it, NOW. And if that means some good ol' whacks, so be it. I have stallions, if I allowed them to be A**holes they would be, but I don't and they are very happy, settled boys who know what the boundaries are. Get some professional help and don't put yourself in danger; the longer he is allowed to behave this way the worse it will be to sort him out.
 
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