Help - going rate for grooms?

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wainhillmover

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Hello all,

I'd like some help. I am moving house in february and have been lucky enough to be able to purchase somewhere with some land, stables and a manege.

I currently have two horses on livery, and will be moving them to the new house with me. I also plan to get a child's pony at some point after we have moved.

I work full time so I need to employ a groom to care for the horses while i am at work. I envisage this as being 1 hour mucking out/hay/feed/water per day, 1 hour grooming/general care/dog walking; 1 hour exercising one horse and one hour turnout/bring in rugging etc. I would also want the groom to organise and attend farrier/vet/physio/saddler visits. = approx 3-4 hours per day. Occasional weekend work may be required, but not normally.

However, I have not done this before, so would like some help on determining what sort of "package" I should offer. As I see it there are a few options that we could feasibly offer:

1) Groom lives on site and brings their own horse
2) Groom lives on site and does not brings their own horse
3) Groom lives off site and brings their own horse
4) Groom lives off site and does not bring their own horse

(option 3 is preferred)

I understand that posting the pay rates etc. may be too sensitve for this forum, but I wonder if anyone could help me to understand the differentiation in pay between the options above. Does it make a huge difference if I offer accommodation for the groom and / or their horse?

I can offer other perks such as competing either my horses or bringing their own out to competition with me at weekends i.e. with transport.

Any help would be much appreciated!!
 
I'd be interested to hear the replies on this!

I'm considering/semi-looking for a small yard to rent for my horses and possibly a couple of liveries.

I've sort of come to the conclusion that from an employment law perspective it is much easier to go for a freelancer, that way they are responsible for insurance, holiday pay, sick pay etc.

I would personally imagine you would be paying in the region of £10-12 per hour for that. You could then negotiate separately on stable rent / flat rental etc.
 
Right this is what i charge to do horses at a private yard :)

£5 in the morning per horse - they get fed, rugged, turned out and mucked out.
£2.50 in the eve per horse - they get bought in, rugged and fed.

Would be charging more if there were less horses.

For extras it depends on what it is, a good groom and 20min/half hour lunge i would charge £10-£15. But then i did another job (ponies that lived out) and charged by the hour because it was odd jobs not big things :)

If i was travelling to your yard i would probably charge you £30-£35 a day for 3 horses basic care and extras such as grooming/exercise.
But then if you did find a groom to live in/keep horse there you could pay in livery/board instead :)

It totally depends on the person, what you want from them ect and it really does vairy so much!

Hope that makes sense/helps .. Im not really with it today!
 
I think the most important thing it to get the right person and then work out what suits from there.

I currently have a really great hard working girl who helps me out, but only 4/5 hours a week and I pay her £10/hour. She also does 25 hours for another lady and she pays her £6/hour.
 
Groom gets minimum wage on our yard

Mucks out, takes out, brings in, rugs changed, dinners, haynets, attends all visits and excercises if the owners wish.

She looks after 10 horses (mine included) and works full time 8-4 Tues - Sat. She's a godsend!!!! Her horse is stabled here for free and she does get full livery on the two days she has off
 
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Whilst not wishing to be disparaging, it might be a better option not to have groom either live in or with horse to start with as you could fall out. I also think you have to check with inland revenue whether they would be employed or freelance, as you will have to pay holiday, sick bank holidays insurance, national insurance and income tax. If you offer livery as pay it also attracts the inland revenue as its a form of payment. For the first I would also suggest not using a friend. You would also have to make sure that your property has commercial use as you could be making a living from it in the eyes of the council and people do love to gossip. The staff would also have to carry their own insurance for care and control which you would have to check. The going rate our way is £10-£15 per hour for stable work and £20-£35 for hacking or schooling. You would also have to check out your own insurance covers this as it could be construed by the insurance company that the rider is a professional (which they are) and normal horse insurance seems not to cover that.
 
Hi, I would say about £8-10 per hour for that as it will take up most of the morning. Whereabouts are you? I'm a freelance groom and might be able to help you out though I am based in the south east. I assume you'd want the groom to turn the horses out in the morning, if you'd want them to then bring in again late afternoon bear in mind that it limits them being able to go off and do many other jobs for other people during the day (if employing a freelancer who lives out), and also would mean more travel if they had to leave then come back again, so consider this with regards costs.
 
Friend of mine works for accomodation (valued at £50/wk) and livery for one horse (valued at £40/wk), one lesson a week (£40)- but she gets lots of help on the owner's horses too plus £70

Her total package is the equivalent of £200/wk

Another friend of mine pays £7.50/hr for mucking out only, 3 mornings a week. (8 horses)
 
I have just been looking into freelance grooming as it is something I am going to go into - I am pd £10/hr flat rate for general yard work and exercising.

This rate makes a small amount of hours worthwhile and should guarantee you find someone who has had plenty of experience.

Let me know if you are nr York!!!
 
To be honest, I think that that's a lot of time to allocate to only 2 /3 horses, and it could probably be done in less.

I have a 'yard girl' who mucks out etc, and occasionally rides if needed (although this isn't the main part of her job and she wouldn't be up to schooling but hacking is fine) and she gets £6 / hr for a 4 hr shift and does 5 - 6 shifts per week. My more experienced girl gets £7 / hr for a 4 hr shift and does 2 shifts per week. If I have someone come in to do Sunday stables, they get £20 for the shift - which normally takes 2 hrs but it covers them giving up their morning so to speak. To give some perspective, we have 8 on the yard, 5 of these are in work, and this can be done in 5-6 hours on an average day.
 
Hello all, oh my goodness thank you all for your responses! Being a forum newbie, I am quite taken aback at the volume already! Thank you so much.

I understand all concerns re: tax and insurance, and so am pretty sure that I would like to go down the freelance route.

Thanks for all advice around pay and hours too - much appreciated, especially as I now understand that there is probably a link between the two.

I think that we could probably manage to feed and turnout ourselves in the morning, hence allowing the groom to only come at one end of the day, if off site. Another good suggestion!

We are also thinking of letting out some of the stables to, say, a semi-professional competition rider. We would charge a reduced rent in exchange for muck out bring in etc of our two horses. Does anyone have experience of doing this? Trying to weigh up the pros and cons!

Many thanks again and do keep the advice coming - much appreciated!

P.s. Our new house is near Chinnor in Oxfordshire, to respond to a direct question! Thanks!
 
spacefaer said:
Friend of mine works for accomodation (valued at £50/wk) and livery for one horse (valued at £40/wk), one lesson a week (£40)- but she gets lots of help on the owner's horses too plus £70
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In calculating National Minimum Wage you are only allowed to offset a MAXIMUM of £32.27 a week - whatever the 'value' of the accomodation might be on the open market. And you are not allowed to offset lessons or livery.

The only way an employer could legitimately charge for lessons is if they are on a totally voluntary basis - i.e. the employee can have them - and pay for them -in their own time - or NOT!

Similarly, if an employee wants livery, she should be paid National Minimum Wage and then negotiate a livery charge (and be free to livery elsewhere if the charge is too high.)
 
wainhillmover said:
and so am pretty sure that I would like to go down the freelance route.
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There are also pretty strict rules about what IS a 'freelance'!

"Self-employed people are usually identified by the fact that they are in business for themselves and provide a service to multiple clients. Self-employed people are generally more independent than workers. They have far greater control over how and when to deliver the service and who delivers it. They will usually be better able to protect their own commercial interests, although they will bear any financial risk from the business they operate.

If you are self-employed, you must:

* register with HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC)
* submit an annual tax return
* account for your own tax and National Insurance payments."

A "Freelance Groom" may contract with several clients to carry out set jobs on a regular or casual basis BUT they don't HAVE to do it themself. They may send a substitute worker to one or more clients when they are on holiday, or overbooked.

If you have someone on a regular basis and THAT person is the one who comes regularly, then they would almost certainly be found to be 'employed' for legal and taxation purposes.
 
I am a self employed groom/rider and at one of my jobs I do similar hours to what you are looking for. I charge £7.00 per hour for all general yard duties, and £10.00 per hour for schooling/exercising horses.
 
SJ_Superstars said:
I am a self employed groom/rider and at one of my jobs I do similar hours to what you are looking for. I charge £7.00 per hour for all general yard duties, and £10.00 per hour for schooling/exercising horses.
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It MIGHT be all the market will stand - and it might be 'sufficient' for your personal circumstances - but you are probably cheating yourself! ;)

If you are 21 or over, the National Minimum Wage is £5.93 per hour. But if you're self employed, you don't get Statutory Sick Pay (or better), or 4 weeks paid holiday a year. You have no security against 'redundancy' (if a client drops you at short notice you may have a considerable loss of earnings until you replace that client). You need to have your own insurances. And you may have to spend several hours travelling (unpaid).

To actually GET National Minimum Wage after allowing for all these factors, you should almost certainly be charging at LEAST £9 per hour for grooming (perhaps a little less if you do 3-4 hours at a time in the one location) - and £12 per hour for riding (to allow for personal accident insurance - riding is higher risk.)
 
We were looking for someone to do our horses when we go away (1 evening, 1 full day and 1 morning). We have 5 horses, 3 out 24/7, 2 in at night.

The lady we were going to get (not anymore though) charges £12/horse/day for stabled, and £6/horse/day for field kept. This goes up to time and a half on a sat, and double time on a sunday. So to pay her to just do our horses sat eve, all day sunday, and monday morning would cost nearly £150 :eek:

It only takes an hour each morning and evening so for four visits = four hours = £37.50 an hour :eek:

That to me is scandalous - I would expect to pay £10 an hour for yard duties.
 
JanetGeorge said:
It MIGHT be all the market will stand - and it might be 'sufficient' for your personal circumstances - but you are probably cheating yourself! ;)

If you are 21 or over, the National Minimum Wage is £5.93 per hour. But if you're self employed, you don't get Statutory Sick Pay (or better), or 4 weeks paid holiday a year. You have no security against 'redundancy' (if a client drops you at short notice you may have a considerable loss of earnings until you replace that client). You need to have your own insurances. And you may have to spend several hours travelling (unpaid).

To actually GET National Minimum Wage after allowing for all these factors, you should almost certainly be charging at LEAST £9 per hour for grooming (perhaps a little less if you do 3-4 hours at a time in the one location) - and £12 per hour for riding (to allow for personal accident insurance - riding is higher risk.)
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A voice of reason.

We pay our groom £12/hour. She does certain days for me when I'm away with work, and it changes each week. I usually tell her a couple of weeks in advance if I can. She is honest and reliable. She is a good rider (Stage 3) so I trust her when my horses are event fit and a handful. She works very hard when she's here, and does everything very quickly and well. She has to travel to get here. She has never ever let me down, even when its been deep snow or she's been ill. I think she's worth it. Sometimes she has competed my horses or come to shows/clinics with me. I'd rather have someone feel valued than on the cheapest I can get them for. On Sundays, her 16yr old sister feeds, hays, turns out, mucks out 4 horses. We pay her £15/hour. She walks a mile to get here, and never ever lets us down so I think she deserves it. Again, she gets to compete/ride my stepson's pony alternative weekends (when he is at his mum's) and wil happily help me plait etc it he's going to a show. I think we have a good relationship with both of them.

I spent years as a groom myself, earning a pittance and struggling - so I got out! We should be encouraging good people not putting them off.
 
My parents are just looking for a new groom (Herefordshire if any takers?!!)

The package is:

5 stables to muck out etc (2 are 12.2) but rubber matted with shavings.
Poo pick paddocks
Help drive 1-2 ponies a day
Ride 1 3 x week ish
General tidying/tack cleaning
Get all in, feed, rugs etc at night

Mon-Fri and Sat am only

£150 ish per week depending on experience
Beautiful 1 bed barn conversion (was holiday cottage so very high spec) with all bills paid
Free keep for horse- just need to buy own shavings. (has big school, walker, all year turnout, excellent hacking)

Think it takes 3-4 hrs in morning and 1 hr at night so still time to do own horse or teach/freelance in middle of day.

Hope that helps :)
 
Hello!

Honey08 - thanks for your post, it represents a good, balanced view (and I love the sound of your groom!). I am myself a self-employed free lancer, so am familiar with the pros and cons with sick pay / rates of pay etc / tax and legal implications. In my industry when employing a freelance contractor we expect to pay approx one third to half again, on top of the standard, permanent employment rate. It seems that this is a reasonable rule of thumb here.

S4Sugar - thanks for your post. We considered the au pair route, but a couple of things: 1) the house doesn't really lend itself to having someone live in 2) although I said child's pony, we don't actually have any children! the pony is for neices and nephews, godchildren etc.

hollyzippo - please can you remove your post? we are not supposed to advertise on here, and I'll get told off! Many thanks.
 
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