Help... horses behaviour getting worse, had a bad fall last night!

[fools_ gold]

Ok this could be a long one, and also hard to put down into words...

Have had my boy for about 6 months now, his general temperament is very sweet, absolutely loves cuddles attention, being groomed etc.
He is a complete pansy and can be very spooky and sensetive but you kind of get the feeling there is a brave soul in there somewhere trying to get out!
He's 6 years old warmblood, and very green.
He was quite poor when I got him, and moved him to a yard with very restricted turn out.
Things started off ok, did lots of ground work to get to know him, started riding him, first few times I got on he was fine, third or fourth time, he freaked out and ditched me at the mounting block.
Then continued to get worse at the mounting block, we managed to get him better, long suffering boyfriend with polo to distract and he will stand quite well - most of the time.
He always felt very on edge when being ridden though - you know that feeling like any second you are going to get an explosion! Would be a bit spooky but once you had shown him something, he was ok.
I put that on edge feeling down to being young, WB, too much energy not enough turnout. Just figured I would take things slow, and in time he would get better.
We moved house, and I had to put him on full livery with exercise for a while as we were renovating our house and land and I didn't feel I would have enough time for him. The lady looking after him mostly lunged/ long reined and built up his strength, he was turned out all day and stabled at night. He is looking good and has put on condition. I went up a few times to ride him, and he was even more on edge than usual. Last time I went to ride him put tack on and took him down to the school, got in there and all of a sudden he started bronking like he had never had a saddle on in his life. I hadn't even attempted to get on him at that point.
I did get on him eventually, and he did a half hearted bronk, but stopped when I shouted at him. We just had a walk around that day and we was his usual self, on his tippy toes but very responsive and trying to please.
On Sunday we moved him home, he has 24/7 turnout, very chilled quiet atmosphere. Him and my new horse settled straight away. I tried to ride him last night, and he was being silly at the mounting block, but finally stood still to let me get on by myself - which is only about the second time he has done that. Got on, stood still, walked a couple of steps felt a bit on edge so I made him stand for a little longer gave him a stroke, talked to him, let him get settled, then asked him to walk on, took all of 2 steps and full on bronced, slamming me on the floor, landed on my coccyx, hit my head, thought I had broken my arm... OUCH!!!!!!
Today I am feeling very sorry for myself, massive bruise on my arm and bum and a bit of a headache! Don't really want to get back on him as feel I could really get hurt.
I initially put his behaviour down to being a bit of a sensitive/ green horse or maybe trying it on to see what he could get away with. But I am now thinking that he has pain as he has got progressively worse.
The other thing I noticed which I also put down to him being a big pansy, is that when he travels in a horse box he can't find his sea legs with his back legs - he is really stompy. When I first bought him I had lady transport him, I didn't travel with her, but asked her how he was and she said he was perfect, travelled really well. When I moved him from that yard, I travelled with the horse transporter and he was pretty much like a drunken sailor the whole way, and recently we brought him on a 5 minute journey round to ours on nearly entirely straight roads and he was the same. Not sure if this is related but thought it's worth mentioning.
It's probably worth mentioning that he wasn't like this when I tried him, he seemed pretty straight forward. Tried him in the school, out on a hack, went for a nice canter, he was awesome. Haven't managed more then walk and trot since I got him, and only ridden out a handful of times as don't feel safe.
He was 2 stage vetted and passed fine.

Have any of you had a similar experience? What was the problem?

Thank you so much if you have made it this far, I hope that was clear enough, it's quite hard to write everything down in a logical way!
Pretty sure the only way to move forward is to have him fully checked out by the vet, but just wanted to see if anyone else could give me the benefit of their experience! Just want to do the best by my boy!

 

[Merrymoles]

I agree that vet is your first option, as well as possibly saddler. Good luck - it might turn out to be something simple and then you can go back to enjoying him. The travelling might be completely unrelated - one of my friend's has a gelding who stomps around in the trailer and has never found his balance but is fine in every other way.

 

[L&M]

Firstly I would say that it seems your horse has been moved around so much in the short time you have had him, so am not suprised he is so unsettled.

I would certainly be getting a vet check before doing any more with him, to eliminate any pain related behaviour. A saddle check would be also next on my list.

Then if he has the 'all clear' from the above I would start again from scratch with some professional help.

Sorry not to be any more constructive, but don't have much experinece with warmbloods.

Good luck and don't get hurt - no horse is worth that.

 

[claribella]

I would look into getting his back checked and also the saddle then if nothing changes call out the vet I think.

 

[HazyXmas]

Oh gosh, poor you.

It does sounds as though he is in pain & i would recommend a thorough vet check up. You say that he wasn't like this when you tried him? Is it possible that he could have had a fall or become cast since you've had him?

Sometimes the bad travelling can be because of back, neck, hock or even ear (problems with balance) pain.

Hopefully you will find something that can be easily sorted out & then maybe he would benefit from being started again once he is pain free.

Good luck, let us know what happens.

 

[Suziq77]

Please don't take this the wrong way but how much experience do you have with young green horses? As has already been said it sounds as if he has been moved around a bit and may well be struggling with confidence. Warmbloods do have a reputation for being tricky in their early years - I think they are fabulous horses but they do, IME, need confident calm handling and can sniff out the slightest hint of nerves in their handler/rider which in turn can make them panic.

Do you have someone experienced who could come and give you a hand once you have had the various checks done?

 

[fools_ gold]

Thanks guys, yeh I was concerned it might have been his saddle. He has a new saddle fitted, which hasn't made any difference.

I was worried that it was my fault for moving him around too much, but it really doesn't seem to affect him at all. I have had horses in the past that would take ages to settle in a new place. But he really appears to be fine, just comes off the box, has a look around, then as soon as he has a haynet or some grass to munch acts like he's been there his whole life.

Think the full vet check is the only way to go!

Has anyone else had these problems, what was wrong?

 

[Princess Jess]

I agree it sounds mostly like he's just a bit unsettled and pushing his luck with you, but first step is to make sure its not pain related.
Is there anyone else who can ride him and see if he behaves the same with your instructor or someone?

 

[solly3066]

Firstly "get well hug"!

I think I'd go down the saddle/back/teeth route to begin with and if all clear there, then vet for more depth.

Obviously, you know your boy better than me, but my TB showed similar behaviour last year and turned out his sacro iliac muscles were way out (he was so out he looked sound if you get what I mean). 10 months on and he's fantastic.

Sorry can't be more helpful
xx

 

[Bionic Boy]

I would look into getting his back checked and also the saddle then if nothing changes call out the vet I think.

I would second this, get his back checked and if nothing from that speak to the vet.

 

[fools_ gold]

suziq77, cross posted, to answer your question....

Yes agreed warmbloods are tircky. Have had experience with all sorts of youngsters over the years. Until very recently have been at yards with extremely experienced people who have all given me advice which I have happily taken on board. Some has helped, initally, but his behaviour has all of a sudden become much worse.
I'm not nervous around him at all, do sometimes get a bit nervous riding him but don't let it show.

 

[TraLaLa]

From my own experience (and from others on this forum too), I would strongly recommend you get his bloods tested for 'substances', before it's too late. ( HFL (Horse Forensics Lab) keeps the samples for about 6 months). At least then you will have a better idea of what you're dealing with, and will confirm whether there was a problem/s before he came to you. (You'd be very surprised to know how common doping is. I certainly was).

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'd want an X-ray of his spine to rule out kissing spine.

 

[fools_ gold]

Tralala..
yes this has been suggested to me, and it has crossed my mind. Now I look back, I don't think the woman was exactly who she said she was. But who knows.
Unfortunately no bloods were taken for the 2 stage vetting. I'm an idiot I know!
To add, some of you who asked, he has been ridden by 2 very experienced riding instructors and they both had the same feeling/ behaviour from him. He was actually slightly worse with them.

 

[LaurenBay]

Get the vet out. Sounds like he is in pain.

My YO'S young WB was like this. It turned out his saddle was pinching and he had a sore back. He was also very wary of my YO as she lost all confidence with him and became nervous. She is now riding again after 5 months off and a new saddle.

 

[Suziq77]

suziq77, cross posted, to answer your question....

Yes agreed warmbloods are tircky. Have had experience with all sorts of youngsters over the years. Until very recently have been at yards with extremely experienced people who have all given me advice which I have happily taken on board. Some has helped, initally, but his behaviour has all of a sudden become much worse.
I'm not nervous around him at all, do sometimes get a bit nervous riding him but don't let it show.

Glad I didn't offend you - best of luck finding out what's bothering him and getting it sorted keep us posted and hope your bruises and aches go away soon!

 

[imr]

Get the back and saddle and teeth checked as others say. Need to eliminate them. But given age it may well be trying it on/teenage tantrums and if nothing physically wrong then I would go for lungeing before you get on and lots of going to your trainer.

 

[Princess Jess]

Tralala..
yes this has been suggested to me, and it has crossed my mind. Now I look back, I don't think the woman was exactly who she said she was. But who knows.
Unfortunately no bloods were taken for the 2 stage vetting. I'm an idiot I know!
To add, some of you who asked, he has been ridden by 2 very experienced riding instructors and they both had the same feeling/ behaviour from him. He was actually slightly worse with them.

In that case it definately sounds like something suspicious has gone on...I guess you'll know more once the vets been out.
I hope its nothing too serious, let us know how you get on

 

[undertheweather]

I'd get the vet.
Also, if a horse feels like it's about to explode, there's no chance I would make it stand still. I had a serial bronker who used to chuck me off before I could get my stirrups/reins. In the process of trying to sort her out I mounted her in the corner of a paddock and she chucked me over the fence! She was just trying it on. A late starting mare. Just get him moving.

 

[TBB]

Whats he being fed on? Youngsters who are only starting out and are a bit up in themselves benefit from plenty of turnout (which your chap gets) and no hard feed. Once you are sure he has no pain, getting him going without hard feed will not (contrary to popular belief) kill him. Once he has started behaving better and is doing more work, it can be re-introduced gradually, if he is not on hard feed you will just have to see what your vet says.

 

[trefnantblackknight]

Sounds exactly like my mums horse

Went to view him and he nearly had her off then but she fell in love with him

We used have 3 people minimum holding him while she got on and then he would bronk like mad - but once he did that he was ok

He was extremely spooky!!

Had him checked for everything - nothing wrong just slightly cold backed!
- and he had his bits chopped off when he was seven so being spooky ment he was constantly looking for danger!! Thinking he still had his bits!!

He now has a western saddle as any kind of english saddle he bronks in!

My mum is into 'Parelli' and it has helped him heaps he still wont hack out his own thou - i suggested long reining him out on his own, but as it wasnt Parelli mum was having noone of it - anyway sorry i cant be much help.

He is now 19 and we bought him when he was 7 and he is only better with bronking situation - he also has alot of difficulty traveling he just cant find his balance and usualy breaks his rope and turns round!!!

 

[winter0190]

hey, I brought my mare as a 6yr old 1 1/2 yrs ago, when i got her she was poor, very quiet when sat on and on the yard. she was lovely but once she filled out she would rear, buck and rear over backwards when I tried to ride her. we had back specialist, saddler, dentist, farrier (to check for absesses) and the vet out to her. they all found nothing and concluded it was behavioural. i later found out that she had only recently been broken when i brought her (happened to speak to a girl who new previous owner). I have now retrained her and she goes well and has started competing sj and dressage in feb.
i'd recommend getting everyone out first then you know if it is behavioual or pain related. then if it is behavioual take him right back to the beginning and rebreak from scratch, and get some help/advice from a profesional. I spoke to Ian waite for the breaking and have been going to clinics with kelly turner for my dressage once my mare was rideable.
hope you get him sorted soon. good luck :-D

 

[fools_ gold]

Thanks for all your advice everyone.

Agree with person who said no hard feed wont kill him - Since I got him I have asked to have him on hardly anything. But very hard to monitor exactly what he was getting as he was on full livery and because he was poor everyone wanted to feed him up.
He is now home with me, so I know exactly what he is getting - unmolassed chaff which is just so he can have something nice to go with the magnesium ox I have started him on, which I know doesn't work for all horses, but worth a go.

I am going to get the vet out early next week as I do feel there may be some underlying pain issues. At least it will give me the chance to rule it out if nothing else.

Went out into his paddock last night and just hung out, watched the sun go down and had some cuddles, he gave me a nice back massage - I like to think he was trying to make up with me and soothe my aches and pains just get the feeling he is an honest chap and wouldn't chuck me unless he was trying to tell me something.... could be wrong though

Will let you know what happens with the vet!

 

[fools_ gold]

Just typed an update for anyone that's still interested - then lost it all... Argh... here goes #2

So I have had some interesting/ upsetting developments since I last wrote... I thought it couldn't hurt to try and contact some of my boys old owners to see if they had problems with him.

Tried the lady I bought him off and she said they had never had any trouble with him. She was selling him for a dealer friend of hers. So that was the response I was expecting.

There is only one other name on his passport, the lady who bought him from his breeder. I actually contacted her ages ago (stalked her down on facebook) she didn't reply and I sort of gave up. But then out of the blue the other day she sent me a long message. She doesn't check her facebook very often so hadn't got my message.

This is what she said... She bought him as an unhadled youngster, she did the basics - picking out feet, grooming, general handling, leaning over his back. Then sent him to a 'well respected' yard to be backed and ridden away. This, she says is where the problems started. They found they could ride him in enclosed spaces, like the yard and lunge pen. But if they tried to ride him in more open spaces like the menege, he would just explode. She decided beacuse of this she would sell him.

She sold him to a very knowledgable woman as a problem horse, I managed to track this woman down (google stalking). She was extremely helpful and spoke to me at length about her experience with him. She decided to start him again, and got to the point of leaning over his back and decided she was not willing to get on him. So she sent him to some friends of hers who train point to pointers to see how they got on with him. She didn't say anything about open spaces. But did say he would be fine one day, then completely violently bronk the next. She said he was completely unpredictable, and she didn't feel like she could progress with him.

For that reason she sold him at sales to a dealer.

So I guess that's where I come in! This woman was very shocked that I have owned him for so long and not had a serious fall sooner.

Soooo... I'm feeling pretty down and at even more of a loss.

The vet is still coming tomorrow. But I don't want to spend thousands exploring pain when it's all in his mind. But then it's possible he has always been in pain (isn't it?)... I think one of the humans he has come across in his short life at least owes it to him to find out???

Anyone got any words of wisdom for me????

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Get his spine X-rayed.


ETA. You could start with a bute trial, to see if his behaviour improves when he's on painkillers.

The Vet is definately the person to get in touch with.

 

[Bobbly]

Well done you for getting this far!! It's never easy to 'take' to a horse that only wants to harm you but given that he is generally a nice person to handle etc he surely deserves someone getting to the bottom of his problems. It's undoubtedly expensive when the vet gets involved so only you can decide whether this is a route that you can take or not. It may be that the vet can find the problem quite easily if it is a physical one, mental ones tend to be just that! I hope he can be sorted or at least have his problem identified then you can decide what your options are with him. Sadly finances will probably have a large part in his outcome but good or bad you will have done your best by him I'm sure. Good Luck.

 

[fools_ gold]

Bobbly - thanks for your kind words, I just want to do the best for my lovely boy!

Faracat - Yes think this is my only option now, if all these experienced people haven't got anywhere with him. My only option is to look into pain.

In a wierd way I am hoping the vet can come up with something, because if it's not pain related I really don't know where to go with him!

 

[AbbeyandApache1]

I would firstly get the vet to thoroughly check the horse out- then get a good saddler to come out if the vet can't see any obvious problems, then I would consider what he is eating and whether he is feed before or after exercise (remember the golden rules of feeding) as I often have to tweak my horses eating habits- currently he has hay and grass during the day then has a small helping of cool-mix otherwise he gets whizzy... If this however has no impact remember he is young and they are often much more wilful then they're older counterparts and are therefore much more challenging to ride- perhaps schedule lessons with some one who is well known for their expertise in this area- that has helped me in the past.. When I had my cob broken in last year at five he was a bit green but has since matured into a lovely chap!!! Last year I gave my cob winter off- due to school commitments, and it did him the world of good he really grew up and matured, I would recommend that too, especially if your horse has been moved around a lot, it might be worthwhile giving him a month or two then rebreaking him, as it should only be a reminder of what he has done before and means that hopefully of any undesirable behaviour crops up it can be resolved by a professional who is used to youngstock... Hope this helps
Abbeyandapache xx

 

[ewf]

Nothing useful to add, just wanted to say how awesome you are for looking into why he behaves like he does rather than writing him off

Even if you don't find a cause you'll always know you did your best for him

 

[MissMincePie&Brandy]

I'd want an X-ray of his spine to rule out kissing spine.

I'm afraid I second this too. ^^^^

Your horse's behaviour pattern sounds similar to my horse's before he was diagnosed. An ordinary back person won't neccessarily be able to tell if the horse has KS (mine didn't), only an xray will confirm or rule it out.

I think at this stage, you have to rule out pain first, before going down the 'all in his mind' route.

Good luck.