Help Humphrey

hannah_N said:
To say something like that in a situation like this is just disrespectful. I certainly wouldn't like to read someone saying anything like that if my horse had been taken without reason.
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Well, thankfully Hannah this is not your horse. The story is in the public domain so people are free to comment as they want.
 
I'm confused as to what hannah dislikes about the comment "you are thinking about the charity commission" :confused:
 
Perhaps I am missing something but if there are holes in the case and official paperwork is not bring produced then one solicitors letter should have some effect?
 
I'm another that can't abide by this winter excuse. I have an ex TB broodmare. In October she starting dropping weight. Upped her feed and always had free choice forage. Grass and hay. After 2 weeks with upped feed things weren't improving. Called out my vet to run tests. While there he discussed with me his mares dropping off slightly too. The goodness wasn't in the forage as in past years. So started on haylage earlier, upped to 3 meals, and added rice bran. In terms of keeping everyone at a healthy weight, this past winter was exhausting and forget my bank balance. Mine have only been on grass for 2 1/2 weeks. 5 weeks total in the sacrafice paddock with 24/7 hay and 3 feeds. In no way were my horses fat. But they were in good condition and right for going to grass. What I didn't do was throw my hands up and say well not my fault, we've had a terrible winter. No I'm not in Scotland but it sure wasn't better here. Non stop rain, mud,mud,mud, and damp cold. I had an easier time keeping weight on horses in the bad cold snowy winter. It was bright and dry for the most part. I felt as dragged down as my horses this past winter.

If Humphrey goes home then the owners really need to step up their game. No excuses. Feed for weight gain. Forage all the time. Fit and lean is much different to thin and hungry. You must learn the difference. You may need to add stomach supps for digestion. You may need to run blood tests. Thing is you don't leave stones unturned. And you don't blame bad weather.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I'm another that can't abide by this winter excuse. I have an ex TB broodmare. In October she starting dropping weight. Upped her feed and always had free choice forage. Grass and hay. After 2 weeks with upped feed things weren't improving. Called out my vet to run tests. While there he discussed with me his mares dropping off slightly too. The goodness wasn't in the forage as in past years. So started on haylage earlier, upped to 3 meals, and added rice bran. In terms of keeping everyone at a healthy weight, this past winter was exhausting and forget my bank balance. Mine have only been on grass for 2 1/2 weeks. 5 weeks total in the sacrafice paddock with 24/7 hay and 3 feeds. In no way were my horses fat. But they were in good condition and right for going to grass. What I didn't do was throw my hands up and say well not my fault, we've had a terrible winter. No I'm not in Scotland but it sure wasn't better here. Non stop rain, mud,mud,mud, and damp cold. I had an easier time keeping weight on horses in the bad cold snowy winter. It was bright and dry for the most part. I felt as dragged down as my horses this past winter.

If Humphrey goes home then the owners really need to step up their game. No excuses. Feed for weight gain. Forage all the time. Fit and lean is much different to thin and hungry. You must learn the difference. You may need to add stomach supps for digestion. You may need to run blood tests. Thing is you don't leave stones unturned. And you don't blame bad weather.

Terri
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I completely agree with you Terri. Well put !
 
I am not far from where Humphrey was kept, yes, we have had a really rubbish winter, its been so wet 24/7, good quality hay and haylage has been hard to get hold of this year, feed prices have gone up, grass has only just started growing etc etc.

My big lad is nomally a poor doer but hes actually came out of this winter well covered and looking pretty good, it has cost me a fortune this winter, for a 16.2hh retired IDXTB and a Welsh Sec A I was spending between £220-£250 per month on haylage and hard feed for them.
 
Blaming a bad winter for a horse's condition doesn't make sense. If that were so, every horse in Britain and Ireland would be a welfare case this year!
 
I don't really understand the story so won't comment on that.

But I live in Scotland and own a 21 yr old stressy TB mare and have had no problem with her weight this winter. I only keep her in light work over winter to allow for this though
 
amymay said:
All to often we slate the welfare organisations for doing sweet FA. This time, they may just have got it right.
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Although earlier in the thread, you repeatedly said, very strongly, that you wouldn't have let them take the horse if it had been yours! You certainly seem to have have changed your mind.

It absolutely amazes me that various people on this thread have called both SSPCA and RSPCA 'authorities'. They are *not* authorities, they are charities with no more authority than me. The police who sometimes accompany their 'inspectors' have the authority to remove animals if a vet deems it necessary. And as for this 'interview under caution' farce, no-one needs to give a charity an interview.
 
HelpHumphrey said:
Ok here goes....there have been a few false accusations on here, no horses from that yard were hacked there or back, please get your facts correct before making theses statements. I am not the owner due to legal reasons he can not comment but everyone that witnessed this seizure can...no documention was produced that night or to this day! Owner was interviewed under caution but wasn't charged for anything and still hasn't...vet reports have been produced to say this horse was not emciated what so ever so choose what you believe with that. He was seized due to lameness which a spiteful person who the owner knows of and is a pathetic excuse for man reported him to be lame before the ride started just because he holds a grudge with the owner for leaving his yard 3 years ago, many witnesses and videos say otherwise and I'm sure the marshals would have noticed and asked the horse to be pulled out of the ride? You are all more than welcome to your opinions and if you believe hes emciated so be it but qualified vets say otherwise....yes he doesn't look great when being seized, he's just done 5 hour common ride been loaded which took 40mins due to another lorry almost hitting him then to get home and then to be put through the whole process again with a severe heart murmur?? The murmur has now been deemed minor so was only elevated due to the stress from almost being hit by a lorry....people are saying there must be more to this story...there isn't this is why everyone is so outraged and gone public with it all
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"no horses from that yard were hacked there or back"
How do you explain then that he was seen hacking to the Common Ride. That person's first reaction was one of concern at the sight of Humphrey being to underweight. Also you cant blame someone else for the fact that SSPCA seized Humphrey, the only person holding a grudge is the owner, and the only person(s) responsible for the state of Humphrey is the owner/loaner.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Although earlier in the thread, you repeatedly said, very strongly, that you wouldn't have let them take the horse if it had been yours! You certainly seem to have have changed your mind..
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No, what I was saying was that they wouldn't have taken it without the relevant paperwork to do so. Someone quite simply would not walk on to my yard and take any animal of mine without paperwork backing up the seizure.

This was merely in response to the FB site where they say that no reason was given for the seizure, no paperwork presented and the refusal of the SSPCA to correctly identify themselves. They could therefore have been handing over their horse to anyone.
 
Pearlsasinger you are wrong. As I have stated time and time again on this thread the SPCA inspectors have powers of entry, search and seizure. They then report to the crown fiscal office. Authoritative they are.
You are correct the RSPCA have no more powers than a member of public, but if would be very foolish indeed to say 'interview under caution farce', a member of public can take a private prosecution, so can a organisation. You are right someone can refuse to be interviewed, BUT all you are doing is refusing your chance to state your actions and defend yourself in accordance with PACE. The whole point of a caution is to tell the person being interviewed that they are suspected of an offense and now is the time to give their story,they have a right to remain silent, but anything that they do not say now given the opportunity and then say in court and rely upon may harm their defense. Here is the legal explanation of the caution.
'You have the right to say absolutely nothing. But if you later rely on something in court, such as an innocent explanation which you haven't told us about when asked, the court may draw its own conclusions if it thinks you should have me ruined it earlier. Anything you so say may be given in evidence.'

The only difference is that a caution the RSPCA gives is not considered a police caution and therefore does not go on record. It is merely explaining a persons rights and being clear that a offense is suspected. To refuse an interview is cutting off your own nose.
 
After watching the videos I agree that the horse isn't in the worst condition but he is far from the best. To my eye there was a few times on the videos I thought he looked lame so I can see why it's been mentioned.

The girl clearly loves the horse and I enjoyed watching how much fun she was having with the horse, it reminded me of bombing round as a teenager. What I would say to the owners is you have a duty of care when you own an animal. Love isn't enough, if it was my bank balance would look very different! Owning a horse involves going without yourself so they have enough, missing out on shows or rides because they don't feel quite right or they are a bit lean, slowing their workload when they start to struggle and having the courage to make the final hardest decision.
I think now rather than fighting and using silly arguments such as the weaving grill you need to have a good hard look at where you did go wrong and try and work with them to assure them you have learned and will make the correct decisions going forward. Bringing up things like he has a grill up that he didn't have at home or that it took 5 people to load him seems petty and childish and TBH doesnt really make any sense.
I hope you get him back but I hope you've learned and make better decisions in the future
 
The Scottish SPCA is, uniquely, a specialist reporting agency to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. This enables it to lay reports for prosecutions, given there is no effective system of private prosecution in Scotland. This power is coupled with the designation of the Scottish SPCA's inspectors under section 49(2)(a) of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, which enables SSPCA Inspectors to exercise powers of entry, search, seizure and issue of binding notices under the Act, such as "care notices". The Scottish SPCA is the only animal welfare organisation in Great Britain to have such powers
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MillyMoomie, you must be sick fed up having to repeat yourself :(
 
It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score, I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it.

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it, I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.
 
MillyMoomie said:
Pearlsasinger you are wrong. As I have stated time and time again on this thread the SPCA inspectors have powers of entry, search and seizure. They then report to the crown fiscal office. Authoritative they are.
You are correct the RSPCA have no more powers than a member of public, but if would be very foolish indeed to say 'interview under caution farce', a member of public can take a private prosecution, so can a organisation. You are right someone can refuse to be interviewed, BUT all you are doing is refusing your chance to state your actions and defend yourself in accordance with PACE. The whole point of a caution is to tell the person being interviewed that they are suspected of an offense and now is the time to give their story,they have a right to remain silent, but anything that they do not say now given the opportunity and then say in court and rely upon may harm their defense. Here is the legal explanation of the caution.
'You have the right to say absolutely nothing. But if you later rely on something in court, such as an innocent explanation which you haven't told us about when asked, the court may draw its own conclusions if it thinks you should have me ruined it earlier. Anything you so say may be given in evidence.'

The only difference is that a caution the RSPCA gives is not considered a police caution and therefore does not go on record. It is merely explaining a persons rights and being clear that a offense is suspected. To refuse an interview is cutting off your own nose.
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In Scotland things are different .
But in England it's always struck me as a grey area if someone got to court and said I choose not to speak to the RSPCA they can't make me talk to them they are just MOP like everyone esle I have never been convinced that this could used as an admission of anything.
However the RSPCA will interview in the presence of police officers sometimes and I always wondered why .
In England the whole thing is a mess why a charity has assumed the roll of the police in these matters is beyond me.
 
Natch said:
It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score, I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it.

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it, I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.
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I think you've made a very valid point, Natch.

Excellent post all round.
 
blackbess said:
MillyMoomie, you must be sick fed up having to repeat yourself :(
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Exactly, I have posted that this horse was SEEN hacking to the Common Ride, so HH is mistaken in saying that Humphrey wasnt hacked first. I am local and I know who I believe and who I dont.
 
Blackbess yes I am !!!

Goldenstar- fair point. Even though it is clear that an interview is the defendants opportunity to state their actions ( or lack of!) a person can still refuse a RSPCA inspector. The inspector would still be able to use the fact that the person has refused their right to interview as evidence.
Unless the offense was serious enough to arrest the person, in which obviously the person would then have no choice otherwise the interview is attended by the choice of the person only.
A complicated interview will be deemed to be better to take place at a police station and sometimes a police officer will be invited to sit in.
As long as everything is in accordance with PACE it doesn't really matter.
 
OAP65, I am glad you and Kalibear have spoken out to what you have witnessed regarding this horse. At least your comments can be seen and read unlike there FB page which aggressively attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them, then deletes their comment. The FB page is an utter disgrace.
 
Natch said:
It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score, I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it.

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it, I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.
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I think this is the nub of the matter I would be amazed if the horse was thin enough to be a case based on its wieght alone but was it providing reasonable care to expect to do what it had done.
It's still strange that a horse is removed In my experiance in the first interaction between a welfare charity and a private owner a lot of effort is usually made to rectify things on the ground .
IME charity's are usually under fire for trying to long with poor owners not being trigger happy .
 
I know someone who had been reported time and time again, SSPCA came out, said feet needed done/ponies needed fed etc etc, even checked mine as in the same field at the time. Nothing ever done, then last yr/this yr she handed some of them in to the SSPCA and kept 2, I think 3 got PTS, she has this month been given a 5 yr ban, the ponies had been getting reported since 2009!
 
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blackbess said:
OAP65, I am glad you and Kalibear have spoken out to what you have witnessed regarding this horse. At least your comments can be seen and read unlike there FB page which aggressively attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them, then deletes their comment. The FB page is an utter disgrace.
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I havent posted on the FB page because its quite pointless, they would just delete anything they didnt want to see. I have no objection to anyone putting their point forward or complaining if something is wrong, but HH seem to be whipping up hysteria and . The amount of people/SSPCA bashing isnt doing their cause any good. They forget that a lot of people know everyone concerned and they will form their own opinions on who is right and who is wrong.
 
No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
 
I agree they maybe shouldn't have taken him on the ride, but if I'd seen that TB I'd have thought 'God he's looking on the lean side, I'd be feeding that up' Not taking it off them straight away.

People know how quick TB's CAN lose condition. We had a false spring and then the snow came back. That + perhaps novice owners/loaners could have contributed to his very lean appearance.

I know that you are all saying 'Oh hard winters shouldn't be an excuse' but unless you've been up hear battling it like we have, with a lot of our winter spent thigh deep in snow, you can't really comment. I've got a friend who couldn't win. TB who normally winters out just took it very bad this year. Wouldn't eat the haylege in the field. She tried keeping him in but he just stressed. No matter what she did, what food she pumped into him, the weight just wouldn't stay on. He just struggled this year, having never struggled before. Wasn't ghastly, but you would definitely want more meat on him.

We've been up and down, horses starting to lose their coats only for it to snow again, horses spending a week out in rainsheets for the hailstones and frost to come back.

Grass is coming through great now after a few warm days and some rain. I bet that horse would have started to fill out over the past week if he'd been left.
 
HelpHumphrey said:
No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
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That's a shame. Because it's attitudes like that that often give arise to suspicion. And debate is always useful, even if people have opinions that differ from the original viewpoint.

1000 'likes' don't mean that people are necessarily in agreement with you. But are generally interested in the situation.
 
HelpHumphrey said:
No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
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A lot of the people who have "liked" and posted on your page have absolutely no idea of what is really going on, they feel sorry for the girl after watching the fluffy video. I will stand by my own FACTS, Humphrey was hacked to the Common Ride, Humphrey was in no condition to take on such a hard ride, and if people complained to the SSPCA then they did what was right in the interest of Humphrey's welfare.
 
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