Help in regards to accident at Chershire Show

That wouldnt stand up in Court! A judge would look at whats forseeable...mmm a horse being scared by a tractor?? However, the use of the tractor would have been known as I imagine she was towed in, along with everyone else. If she was aware he may have been spooked, then keeping the ramp closed would have been the answer.
 
Taking bandages off in the confinement of a horsebox partition anywhere, let alone a busy showground is putting yourself and the horse at risk.

Ramp up or down just not the place to be crouching around a horses legs with no space to back away or step aside if the animal moves. Not the first time it has happend and I sure it will not be the last.

And on the topic of Cheshire Show - what is new about a 2 hour queue to get onto the showground? It has been like that every year since they moved to Tatton Park. This year was the first time in over 12 years we did not even consider entering as we had enough last time of spending 4 hours travelling time crawling 2 miles on and off the showground (7.00am and 6.00pm). And having to dodge pushchairs and out of control children on the horse walkways just to get to the ridden hunter judging was insane. Cheshire Show does need a wake up call on H&S and show access but it is unfortunate that someone has been injured to bring it to the point.
 
It sounds like an awful accident and i can completely understand that in this situation you have to find out what happened, particularly to prevent the situation occuring again.

I don't think it is useful to judge Atki's mother's actions that day as not even she knew what happened. I am not convinced that farmers treat horses like cows - the ones I know certainly don't, and everybody has to be responsible for their actions. I think it is very harsh in these circumstances to immediately try to pick fault with what this poor lady did or did not do at the time and not in the least helpful for her daughter to have to read it, after coming on here asking for help.

I wish your mother a full and speedy recovery.
 
What I was trying to say is that she doesn't know exactly how it happened and she has a right to try and find out how it happened, whether it turns out to be an accident or someone acting irresponsibly. By appealing for witnesses, doesn't necessarily mean she is looking for someone to blame and sue, but if something similar happened to friend or family of mine I would be doing the same because I would want to find out if it was purely an accident, or a freak accident or if someone was acting in a dangerous way that caused the accident. If it turns out that the tractor raised its bucket up close to the back of an open horse box, with a horse inside, that IMO is stupidity on the part of the driver and quite possibly they could be held responsible, if it turns out that a tractor was just driving by and the horse spooked and that caused the accident, then it was an accident. She might never find out, but if a few witnesses come forward she could get some peace of mind as to how it happened.
 
At Dorchester show last september they had tractors helping and i remember most were very slow but one driven by two lads went up a row of lorries at full tilt (yeah ok prob only 25 mph!) but this was enough to cause three horses to break thier leadropes and gallop off, (fortunately mine were still on the lorry) and one young girl leading a driving pony to be dragged along in the mud. Needless to say when we complained we recieved a written apology.

Just goes to show that this is not an isolated incident, and i would have to disagree with GTs and say that imo alot horses in that situation probably would panic.

I think we should all stop worrying about wether she is going to claim or not and offer our full support in what must be a very upsetting time. I for one think that making a claim could open organisers eyes to the risks of using large machinery around horses and long term make them rethink saftey, making show grounds a much safer place to be.
 
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I don't think it is useful to judge Atki's mother's actions that day as not even she knew what happened. I think it is very harsh in these circumstances to immediately try to pick fault with what this poor lady did or did not do at the time and not in the least helpful for her daughter to have to read it, after coming on here asking for help.


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Not judging her actions simply stating an absolute fact of basic equine H&S awareness. Some accidents are unavoidable, some could have been avoided by basic horse sense. Hindsight is 20/20. The compensation culture like so many things has arrived in the UK with full force from the USA trend to "blame and claim". As everyone knows anything to do with horses - animals / farms is a risk.
 
I have read some of the posts and am glad your mother is now on the mend. However, I do not understand why you are looking to aportion blame. Is your mother not also responsible for putting herself in the partition with the horse in the first place? Why do we have to blame someone else? Horses are flight animals and of course it's going to panic if a tractor is pulling a horsebox directly behind. Maybe your mother should have stepped out of the partition until it had passed? Maybe it happened too quickly but I'm sorry, this sort of thing means that insurance premiums go up, smaller shows won't run and so the snowball effect begins. It wounds like a freak accident - why does someone have to "pay" whether it be financial or not - as I said you mother put herself in that situation, maybe she should have removed herslef from it when a vehicle came so close to passing - everything makes sense in hindsight and I'm sure with hindsight the driver of the tractor might wish he had not done what he did. I suffered a nasty accident last year and broke myself badly. I could have blamed a number of things - but I put myself on the horse, I decided to jump up a step out of water and I messed up. We choose to put ourselves in these situations and must accept with animals of this size they have the potential to do a lot of damage.
 
SV I don't think atki is necessarily trying to aportion blame onto someone else, she is trying to find witnesses to find out what happened. Find out if it was an accident, a freak occurance or someone did something irresponsible that cause the accident, if witnessess come forward and say that the tractor didn't do anything stupid and what happened was just an accident that atki will have peace of mind that it was just an accident but at the moment she doesn't know if it was an accident or not, thats why she is appealing for witnessess to find out.
I have just re read aload of the post as I couldn't understand why people are saying that her mother shouldn't have been in the box if she wasn't horsy because no where does she say that her mother isn't horsy. She actually said in her OP that she (atki the daughter writing the OP) isn't into horses like her mother and sister.
 
Dear Atki,i heard about the accident from friends who visited the show to spectate,i just wanted to wish your mum a get well wish,things could of been so much worse,at least shes recovering thats the main thing,i can understand how you want to work out what happened,this accident could easily happen to anyone,i wish you all well.
 
If a member of my family had been seriously hurt I would want to know what had happened too and if there is anyone to blame they are well within their rights to seek redress for that. So good luck with your search Atki hope you find the answers you are looking for.
 
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I might be mad, but there is no way a bucket could get above my horses if they were in the lorry?

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Easy, tractor buckets go up miles - some tractors are 10' tall anyway and their loaders with whatever gadget is attached go up over the cab!
 
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I might be mad, but there is no way a bucket could get above my horses if they were in the lorry?

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Easy, tractor buckets go up miles - some tractors are 10' tall anyway and their loaders with whatever gadget is attached go up over the cab!

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Whereupon they wouldn't have seen it? I meant above their heads directly, without the roof separating them from the tractor, and there's no space in my truck for that!!!
 
The way Ive read it, the tractor pulled upto the ramp which was down and the bucket was up, so it wouldn't touch the ramp, so the bucket was over the ramp at the height of the horse's head or just above, so the horse inside may have thought the bucket was coming in or over its head in the box, but thats just the way I read it.
 
The point is, this is entirely conjecture. Nobody knows. In Atki's shoes I would be glad my mother was on the mend, and not looking for someone to blame.
When I got sent flying, it was entirely my own fault........I was stupid enough to be dealing with a big young horse inside a lorry. I had the partition open so that I wouldn't be trapped, but I should not have been careless enough to take his back boots off on the truck. fortunately I wasn't alone, I had someone at his head. Whatever makes them freak, and it can be many things, is incidental. It has also been said that the horse/pony was skittish to deal with and that was why it was being dealt with on the truck. From a sensible safety point of view, it is tempting fate to deal with a tricky reactive animal alone under those circumstances. Horse can also go nuts for reasons we cannot fathom. I've had to help free horses (not mine) that went nuts on wagons for no reasons, getting caught over partitions, jammed on top of the lockers, one horse I saw kicked it's way backwards through a lorry and severed an artery, a P2P horse belonging to a friend of mine kicked back and jammed his hoof between the back of the partition and the wall and pulled the hoof capsule off ( he was saved, BTW).
I have said before, we have had to saddle P2P horses on the truck with tractors whizzing past, but you would read the situation and never attempt to do the horse on your own.
As far as my understanding of the situation goes, there is a suggestion that the tractor incident happened, but no witnesses.
I again mean no disrespect to Atki's mother who has had a horrible experience, but I am concerned at the blame issues that are at the root of this thread. Horses are horses and there is always an element of risk that you either accept, or take up another pastime.
 
As much as I respect you opinions GTF, there is many different situations that lead upto accidents.
Atki has every right to try and find out what happened she has been told different things, she wants to find someone that saw what happened.
For all you and I know, she could have been doing her horse quietly in the box and a tractor practically drove into the lorry with them, causing the horse to freak and the accident to happen but an accident caused by someones irresponsible behaviour as its common sense you don't drive a tractor up to the back of a horse box and try and stick the bucket in the lorry.
OR
She could have been doing her horse in the box and a tractor trundled by and the horse spooked and an accident happened, an accident and just that no ones fault because no one did anything wrong.
The point is Atki has every right to try and find out what happened.
Yes people should except there is an element of risk when dealing with horses and if accidents happen they happen and as horse owners we should just accept that but if a third party does something that causes an accident then that is the third parties fault and should be addressed as such.
For example:
1. your hacking on the roads you fall off because the horse spooks at an imaginary ghostie in a hedge, thats an accident. its nobodies fault but your own for riding the horse.
2. your hacking on the roads you fall off because the horse spooks at a passing motorist, who did nothing wrong, they past carefully, thats an acciednt, its nobodies fault but your own for riding the horse.
3. your hacking on the roads you fall off because a motorist gets irrate because in their opinion that horses shouldn't be on the roads and they start beeping their horn and revving their engine and driving far to close scaring the horse and causing the accident, thats also an accident but its an accident that is caused by a third party acting recklessly and has such why should the rider accept that its just an accident when someone else caused it.
My point is Atki has every right to appeal for witnessess to what happened and hopefully some will come forward and say that a tractor trundle by but did nothing reckless or irresponsible and then she has peace of mind that it was just an acciednt and can move on but if witnesses come forward and say that their was a tractor and it looked like it was going to drive up the ramp into the box with it bucket up in the air, then imo that driver was acting irresponsible because they are on a horse show ground there is most likely going to be a horse in a horse box and should therefore avoid acting that way, as its common sense if you do something like that its going to upset a horse, and if their is a person in the box, they don't know what a third party is going to act that way they aren't telepathic and you can't know what someone else is going to do, but why should you accept that you and/or your horse have been injured because of someone elses actions!
We don't know what happened so its about having balance in our opinions and being open minded that there are many different causes to accidents and true accidents should be accepted as such but when a third party has acted in a way that has endangered you then you shouldn't have to accept that, I am not talkng about petty outrageous compensation culture gone mad like the story in h&h this week but if someone truly has acted irresponsibly and endangered someones life why should that be accepted has just an accident.
 
Atki

I really hope your mother is getting better. I was at Royal Bath and West a few years ago and in the rain the competitor in the trailer in front of ours lost her life as her horse repeatedly double barrelled her against the ramp - we couldnt get her out.

To everyone; I dont think Atki is looking for money out of this - her mother could easily have been not so lucky and im sure you would do the same to make sure that show organisers take this into consideration when telling the farmers what to do.

Dont all shoot the poor girl down - im sure she knows how unpredicatle horses are but things can be prevented in the future.
 
I can't help with the information the OP needs, but I wanted to say that some of the comments here seem unfair to me. The compensation culture is getting out of hand in the equestrian industry. However, this woman sustained terrible, life threatening injuries as a result of what sounds like negligent incompetance. Yes accidents do happen and risk is inherant around horses, but what level of intelligence does it take to know that you don't drive a roaring tractor right up to the back of an open occupied horsebox and lift the bucket over it? Most horses would be terrified and people are often up there with them in a confined space!

It sounds like there is a high likelyhood that this was negligence (its for a court to decide these things) and surely we don't want to be so against the compensation culture that we go that far in opposing it that we give show organisers etc 'free rein' not to bother about a 'duty of care' to competitors. They should look to make the environment as safe as it can be. If we do, there will be cases where they are thoughtless and careless and cause some family breadwinner to be killed or someone to become perminantly disabled and unable to work and support themselves/their families/their horses. Remember compensation litigation in the right circumstances is a good thing and a force for good change. It has e.g caused the NHS to actually check the credentials of staff working with patients (in my first job no-one checked that I had any qualifications and I was there for years) and since the accident at Zebruger, Ferry Travel has been safer!

I hope your mother continues to improve and that you get the information you are seeking.
 
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I can't help with the information the OP needs, but I wanted to say that some of the comments here seem unfair to me. The compensation culture is getting out of hand in the equestrian industry. However, this woman sustained terrible, life threatening injuries as a result of what sounds like negligent incompetance. Yes accidents do happen and risk is inherant around horses, but what level of intelligence does it take to know that you don't drive a roaring tractor right up to the back of an open occupied horsebox and lift the bucket over it? Most horses would be terrified and people are often up there with them in a confined space!

It sounds like there is a high likelyhood that this was negligence (its for a court to decide these things) and surely we don't want to be so against the compensation culture that we go that far in opposing it that we give show organisers etc 'free rein' not to bother about a 'duty of care' to competitors. They should look to make the environment as safe as it can be. If we do, there will be cases where they are thoughtless and careless and cause some family breadwinner to be killed or someone to become perminantly disabled and unable to work and support themselves/their families/their horses. Remember compensation litigation in the right circumstances is a good thing and a force for good change. It has e.g caused the NHS to actually check the credentials of staff working with patients (in my first job no-one checked that I had any qualifications and I was there for years) and since the accident at Zebruger, Ferry Travel has been safer!

I hope your mother continues to improve and that you get the information you are seeking.

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Well said Stella - That is what I was trying to say just not as well....
 
I dont really have an opinion on the event but one thing I have noticed is that people obviously haven't read the thread properly because the OP is a HE not a SHE! So perhaps before we all pass judgement we should check our FACTS! The OP was merely asking for witnesses it did not state that he was looking to apportion blame, some people jumped to conclusions.
 
Thanks for that fatarse2
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, I didn't actually read the name at the bottom
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(well I did but I could swear it said Jane the other day
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- damn dyslexia!
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) but I assure you that I have read the whole body of the thread
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and you may like to note that I have been actually supporting Atki's right to appeal for witnesses and have stated that they aren't necessarily trying to apportion blame, if their is no blame to apportion. So before you have ago at me for my wrong use of the english language perhaps you would like to check that I am actually of the same thinking as you!
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(Before anyone else picks me up on my use of the english language as well, I already know I have a problem with there/their, has/as, he/she and can/can't and usually spend 5 minutes re reading anything i've typed trying to get my grammar and spelling correct before posting anything, usually without success
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)
 
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However, this woman sustained terrible, life threatening injuries as a result of what sounds like negligent incompetance. Yes accidents do happen and risk is inherant around horses, but what level of intelligence does it take to know that you don't drive a roaring tractor right up to the back of an open occupied horsebox and lift the bucket over it?


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IF that's what happened! The reason I keep posting is that there seems to be an assumption of negligence on the part of the show, but no responsiblity attached to Atki's mother. I know she was injured, and I am truly thankful she's going to recover well, I wish no harm to anyone, but my point is there are big dangers going near a skittish horse (as it has been said about the horse in question)in a lorry, and there is only conjecture that there was a tractor bucket shoved up the ramp.
On a wet day at a comp, I expect to be towed in and out, and my horses deal with the tractors. If I had a horse that I thought was likely to not cope, I would not have taken it, or once there, left it to look and learn. If it was still freaking, I would have taken it off the lorry to watch. Or put the ramp up. Or gone home. It is the handlers responsibility to be aware of what is happening, not the tractor driver's to stop at every lorry to see what's happening inside.

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It sounds like there is a high likelihood that this was negligence

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As regards the NHS, of course they should be checking.........it is an entirely different situation.

Atki, I'm sorry, this is in no way meant to be doing your mother a disservice, if indeed the tractor driver was responsible, but as someone who has competed for many years in apalling conditions, with tractors towing often a part of the day, I have never seen a situation like the scenario being built in people's mind's eye on here. If it is the case, then yes, there should be questions asked, but your comparison was someone revving an engine out hacking when the horse was visible, and doing it with intent, there is no way the tractor driver, in any scenario, could have known your mother was there, but she must have heard the tractor approaching, and with a horse likely to react, should have taken avoiding action.

I am worried by this blame culture that is seeping over from the states, and I worry about the future of horse sports in this country because of it.
 
The point is that your opinion and my opinion are not important. The original poster was asking for witnesses and if they feel they have a case, its for a court to decide if there was negligence.
 
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The point is that your opinion and my opinion are not important. The original poster was asking for witnesses and if they feel they have a case, its for a court to decide if there was negligence.

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*APPLAUDS*
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I kept out this thread as I wasn't at the show but seeing how large it had become I wondered what was going on and came to take a peep.

Goodness, the OP just asked for information, not people's views on them launching a tortious claim, that AIUI they don't even intend to make.
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I hope you all give your high horses a good cooling off and a day off tomorrow after working them so hard
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The original poster was asking for witnesses and if they feel they have a case, its for a court to decide if there was negligence.

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Well let's hope it doesn't come to that.................


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The point is that your opinion and my opinion are not important. The original poster was asking for witnesses and if they feel they have a case, its for a court to decide if there was negligence.

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Goodness, the OP just asked for information, not people's views on them launching a tortious claim, that AIUI they don't even intend to make.
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I hope you all give your high horses a good cooling off and a day off tomorrow after working them so hard
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Thats the same points as i've been trying to make for the past couple of days (although in a far more long winded version because my grammar isn't has great as yours), that atki has a right to appeal for witnessess to find out what happened and whether that does or does not turn up evidence of negligence or not doesn't matter, she (sorry HE) has a right to appeal for witnesses and shouldn't be hammered with loads of peoples views about apportioning blame and legal cases when they never said thats what they intented to do. Thank you Stella and Puppy for making what I was trying to say in a far clearer and shorter version.
 
I wish your Mum a speedy recovery but do echo the majority of replies here.
Large ag shows like Cheshire are fraught with spooky things happening, from helicopters to tractors, even umbrellas and kids waving balloons.
Accidents do happen even to the most careful of us, and although I agree the tractor driver should not have lifted the front loader above the box, neither should your Mum have been in there alone and at risk. We either get ready inside and have a person in the living at the same time, or do everything outside where escape is possible.
The post does sound like you are seeking to go to litigation, and although you may well win, what will happen is showground for the rest of us will be covered by even more rules and the insurance will go up causing higher entry fees.
Horses are unpredictable and everyone should remember that, always be ready to dive out of a box or trailer and keep an eye out for things like that tractor..(or have a helper to warn you so you can get out of there safely in time..)
 
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neither should your Mum have been in there alone and at risk. We either get ready inside and have a person in the living at the same time, or do everything outside where escape is possible

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Nice idea in a perfect world, but this is a not a perfect world, not everyone can have the luxury of having someone go with them to competitions there are many people who travel alone with their horse, also there are many shows where you can't get your horse ready outside, for example Hickstead RIHS, the boxes get packed in so tight for the Show Jumping that its impossible to have your horse outside the box to get it ready, also show jumping at patchetts especially at the weekends, room is so tight you can't have your horse out the box.
 
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