Help in regards to accident at Chershire Show

HG, I do appreciate what you are saying, but if you have a knowingly difficult (or skittish, as Atki said) horse, you are taking a risk yourself travelling it alone and competing it. I would not go to a comp, barring a local show and with only one horse, where I would know everyone in case of an accident, without help. But Atki's mother was the helper, and there must have been room outside if the tractor was towing boxes in and out.
One of the P2P gees I worked with had to have his racing back boots put on before he left home, as we had no chance to safely get near his back legs before he ran. It wasn't hugely amusing taking them off after he ran either, but we knew what we were dealing with. He also once nicked an artery high up on a back leg after he ran, and nearly put his owner and the vet into the next county. (I held onto the front end!)
I think this is my whole point, you need to know your horse and what you are dealing with and act accordingly. And with a skittish (Atki's words, not mine) horse, do not put yourself at risk by being in the partition with it alone!
Anyway, if nothing else, hopefully this thread will act as a reminder to continually be careful around horses at a show, and never underestimate them.
Echoing Diego's comments, I hope she is getting better.
 
Sorry but I can't find any where where Atki says the horse is skitish or knowingly differcult other than that the horse is prepared in the box because it won't stand still outside but nowhere does Atki use the word skitish or differcult, ive had plenty of horses that won't stand outside and none of them I would class as differcult or skitish, just keen to get going, which is why all mine get prepped in the box.

If you re read my reply to hh, you will see I was making a general observation that not everyone can have helpers at shows and at certain shows you can't tie up outside anyway, I wasn't relating it to Atki's post just making a general observation on what hh said that you should always have someone there if you are prepping in the box or otherwise tie up outside.
It is quite possible for tractors to be operating even when boxes are packed in tightly because they run up and down behind/infront of the boxes, doesn't mean there is room down the side of the boxes to tie your horse up. When i've been to Hickstead in the Show Jumping lorry park they have been packed in with a shoe horn and the only moving room is so you can drive up the lines infront or behind the box.
 
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Sorry but I can't find any where where Atki says the horse is skitish or knowingly differcult other than that the horse is prepared in the box because it won't stand still outside but nowhere does Atki use the word skitish or differcult,

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Sorry, I misread that, but it doesn't alter the fact that if you need to do a horse on your own in a lorry you are taking a risk. And if the horse is likely to not stand still with the hustle and bustle outside, it is also likely not to stand still with the same atmosphere inside. When we saddle the P2P's on the truck, it's because we'd never hang onto them off the truck, not because the truck will magically negate the noises of the showground that light them up.

If you have read my posts you will see that I also have saddled, tacked up etc in a lorry. I have sometimes had three horses at an event where we were parked wing mirror to wing mirror, and it is a major pain in the butt to keep taking them off and on, changing studs, changing tack, changing boots keeping the truck skipped out etc. I would never dream of attempting that alone. And if I did and had a mishap, I would not look to apportion blame, it would be my own fault for not being prepared.
Not some poor bloody tractor driver doing his best to help out.

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It is quite possible for tractors to be operating even when boxes are packed in tightly because they run up and down behind/infront of the boxes, doesn't mean there is room down the side of the boxes to tie your horse up. When i've been to Hickstead in the Show Jumping lorry park they have been packed in with a shoe horn and the only moving room is so you can drive up the lines infront or behind the box.

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Therefore you must accept that the tractor drivers have very little leeway to manoevre, and the competitors should be aware of potential problems.

I believe wholeheartedly it is up to the individual competitor to remove as many potentially dangerous situations as possible. Having been on the receiving end of a belting in a lorry, it was my own fault, but the horse got spooked by a horse trotting fast past on the tarmac road behind the truck. It could as easily have been a tractor driving fast past me. But it was my fault for taking a back boot off on the truck, with a horse I knew was reactive.
We are not going to agree on this, so I think we just have to accept stalemate on the discussion.
Atki's mum is ok, so there isn't a sorry outcome, unless it goes to a claim, which I sincerely hope doesn't happen.
 
My point is, Atki isn't necessarily trying to appoint blame if blame isn't to be appointed and he has stated that he doesn't want to claim, "money is irrelevant to him", he wants information to discover what happened and if the tractor driver was acting in a manner that is consider out of order or dangerous or irresponsible that show organisers take steps to make sure heavy machinery operating on show grounds does so in a more sensible manner in the future as to try and avoid something like this happening in the future, the only reason I got involved in this post was I couldn't stand the way people were twisting what Atki was saying and being very harsh on his mother and trying to blame the whole incident on her, and raving about not claiming and apportioning blame, when Atkis clearly stated this wasn't about claiming to him, it was about trying to stop this happening in the future by improving the way tractors operate at shows, if it was the tractor that caused/severely contributed to the accident, you mention tractors needing leeway thats very true but there is a difference between needing leeway and acting dangerously.
The fact is yes people have to accept there is danger when being around horses but that doesn't negate the fact that if a third party acts in a way the could be class as irresponsible and causes an accident that it should be allowed to pass because a horse was involved and the party injured should have sole responsibility because they chose to be with that horse, it all depends on circumstances of that particular incident and what each party was doing at the time and has none of us have any idea of the complete circumstances of what happened we shouldn't be judging Atki's mother. If you go back and read all my posts, I have tried to stay balanced and objective and have said if this happened then that could be class as irresponsible but if it was only this that happened then it a pure accident. This poor woman has been slammed by alot of people who have absolutely no idea to what actually happened and jumping to conclusions, that is wrong, if the circustances were completely known then Atki wouldn't be asking for witnesses in the first place.
Just for the record, I have been sat on, kicked, flattened, jumped on and squished many times both in the box and out, most of them for no other reason than it just happened but i've also been involved in an accident caused by a third party and just because I was with a horse doesn't let that third party off from there part in the accident.
I think Stella put it best earlier in this thread.
 
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My point is, Atki isn't necessarily trying to appoint blame if blame isn't to be appointed and he has stated that he doesn't want to claim, "money is irrelevant to him", he wants information to discover what happened and if the tractor driver was acting in a manner that is consider out of order or dangerous or irresponsible that show organisers take steps to make sure heavy machinery operating on show grounds does so in a more sensible manner in the future as to try and avoid something like this happening in the future, the only reason I got involved in this post was I couldn't stand the way people were twisting what Atki was saying and being very harsh on his mother and trying to blame the whole incident on her, and raving about not claiming and apportioning blame, when Atkis clearly stated this wasn't about claiming to him, it was about trying to stop this happening in the future by improving the way tractors operate at shows, if it was the tractor that caused/severely contributed to the accident, you mention tractors needing leeway thats very true but there is a difference between needing leeway and acting dangerously.
The fact is yes people have to accept there is danger when being around horses but that doesn't negate the fact that if a third party acts in a way the could be class as irresponsible and causes an accident that it should be allowed to pass because a horse was involved and the party injured should have sole responsibility because they chose to be with that horse, it all depends on circumstances of that particular incident and what each party was doing at the time and has none of us have any idea of the complete circumstances of what happened we shouldn't be judging Atki's mother. If you go back and read all my posts, I have tried to stay balanced and objective and have said if this happened then that could be class as irresponsible but if it was only this that happened then it a pure accident. This poor woman has been slammed by alot of people who have absolutely no idea to what actually happened and jumping to conclusions, that is wrong, if the circustances were completely known then Atki wouldn't be asking for witnesses in the first place.
Just for the record, I have been sat on, kicked, flattened, jumped on and squished many times both in the box and out, most of them for no other reason than it just happened but i've also been involved in an accident caused by a third party and just because I was with a horse doesn't let that third party off from there part in the accident.
I think Stella put it best earlier in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ] And I think your summery here is eloquent and says what needs to be said. I've continued the follow the thread However, those who are so busy being anti litigation under any circumstances and blinded to any other aspects of the situation, just don't seem to be prepared to even consider another perspective and this has left me feeling that I just couldn't be a***d responding any further. You must have a stronger constitution than me!

I truely hope that the original poster hasn't been too distressed by the replies given especially that his mother is probably still seriously ill (I'm not suprised he hasn't posted here for a while). It seems to me that with those kind of injuries, she may never completely recover. As you have indicated, given the possibility of stupidity and negligence in this case, why should she be criticised and considered wholly responsible just because she chose to be with a horse.
 
Thanks Stella (ive never been called eloquent before!), i'd actually given up on the thread and I saw hh's comment and thought i'd make a passing comment on its not always possible to have helpers, I wish I hadn't bothered and I wouldn't have replied to GTF but they were blatantly misquoting Atki again.
I have to agree with you that those that are completely anti litigation under any circumstances have blinkers to certain circumstances but it makes you wonder what would they do if they were in an accident that was 100% caused by a third parties actions!
I only stayed involved in this post because I thought someone should fight the side of common sense and be thoughtful to Atki's feeling so that he didn't think everyone thought his mother was to blame when no one knows exactly what happened and who was to blame if anyone.

My best wishes to Atki and his mother, I hope she has a full and fast recovery xxx
 
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I have to agree with you that those that are completely anti litigation under any circumstances have blinkers to certain circumstances but it makes you wonder what would they do if they were in an accident that was 100% caused by a third parties actions!

[/ QUOTE ] Yes indeed
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ok concidering atki's mother may loose the use of her eye due to the possible actions of a 3rd party i would be all for sueing. surgeru to possibly fix the eye is not always available on the NHS and costs a fortune privately (and personaly i wouldnt trust the NHS anyway).
my mother is blind in one eye, it means that she is no longer allowed to drive at night, she is no longer allowed to drive the lorry and as her other eye is weakened already she may never get to see her grandkids (if i ever have them). It takes time and money getting round these problems and although we have had to cope financialy (taxi's, me takeing my lorry test, special aids in the house) why on earth should atkis mother have to if the accident was caused by someone else.
 
I dont think Atki is wrong to try and find some witnesses and figure out what happened. If the lady involved in the incident had DIED would we be thinking differently I wonder?

Personally I commend Atki for looking for reasons, it may be that he/she finds out that the tractor was not at all to blame, it may be that it was to blame. Whichever is true there should be one outcome - hopefully to prevent another accident of the same nature. I think this is best achieveable by (if they are found to be at fault) a stern letter to the show organisers. A claim will only serve the purpose of making show organisers not bother, and slowly and surely there will be less and less shows...

If the tractor was not at fault - the accident will hopefully make people think twice about doing certain things, and make them act safer. So surely its a win - win situation???
 
I was not there, so cannot help in that respect. I also wish Akti's mother well, and am glad to hear that she is on the road to recovery. I have a couple of points that I would like to make:
1) I hope this doesn't result in a financial claim - as it is truly an accident - and shows and the horse world in general are struggling enough due to the litigation culture.
2) Please dont blame the poor ( likely to be farmers ) helpers who were probably helping out at the last minute.
3) This is think is the BIGGEST point of all and to my knowledge no one else has mentioned - and I think it is a useful point to make to the show organisers. The tractors - which are likely to only be towing have absolutely no need what so ever to have a loader or bucket on!!!! With a degree of forethought and organisation from the show society they could have hired sufficient tractors in without loaders and buckets, but continued to use the usual likely candidates to drive them. This would cause a degree of expense, but then they probably have for example a John Deer or New Holland trand stand so undoubtedly a deal could be struck!
I would imagine that the organisers didnt forsee the problem ( which admittedly you probably wouldn't until an accident like this occured) and therefore drafted locals in with they're own machinery at the last minute.
 
Good God! I just can't believe people are STILL making judgemental, assumptive statements DESPITE what the OP has written, all about something they didn't even witness!
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Madness....!
 
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as it is truly an accident

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Well said puppy, i've resisted commenting, because quite frankly its like hitting your head against a brick wall.

Furry - how you can make the above judgement, is beyond me, as you said in your own words....you weren't there!

No one on hho has come forward as a witness on this post. therefore no one can judge this case and I think what started as an appeal for witnesses, as in atki's own words, he isn't interested in money! He is just hoping to make a difference to future safety at shows should the safety turn out it needs addressing. So many judgemental people jumping to conclusions and putting words in atki's mouth, that he never said....shame on you!
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But arent you jumping to conclusions too? you say he is only hoping to make a difference to future safety......how do you know that?
I would bet my house on a claim following (I work in the business and believe me, people claim for anything). Not that it bothers me....keeps me in a job and if people want to claim then its up to them!
 
i can completely understand where the OP is comning from. Last weekend i went to a show where i had 2 ponies tied up to the side of the lorry and the tractor that was pulling stuff in and out went between my lorry and the lorry parked besides me, one of my ponies completely freaked out (cant have been more then a foot from his back end, the other pony is dead from the neck up im pretty sure). Its about time that show organisers started to put measures in place to stop this sort of thing.
Luckily with my pony no one was hurt (except the lorry as he pulled the tie ring off the side). The tractor had no need to go between the lorries as we were the front line of lorries with nothing in front of us except rings, however the farmer decided that it would be ok if he drove the tractor to the side of the rings and watched from there! Its an accident looking for somewhere to happen.
 
Merlot, what conclusions have I jumped to, I have taken Atki at their word that they aren't interested in money but future safety thats not jumping to conclusions, that is taking what someone as said and not twisting it.
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Betting your house that a claim will follow is jumping to conclusions
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because atki hasn't said they are going to claim or not, they may well do but they can't be judged on that as they haven't said they are going to claim, the fact was they said they weren't interested in money but making sure it doesn't happen again.
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But arent you jumping to conclusions too? you say he is only hoping to make a difference to future safety......how do you know that?
I would bet my house on a claim following (I work in the business and believe me, people claim for anything). Not that it bothers me....keeps me in a job and if people want to claim then its up to them!

[/ QUOTE ] That seems a very callous thing to say (even if it turns out to be true) given that this poor woman will still be struggling with dreadful injuries. The term ' have a heart' comes to mind
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It wasnt meant to be callous and I wish Atkis mum all the best (as I have done in a previous post).. I am simply pointing out that the world is now turning into a litigeous society where blame has to be appointed to someone else. Whether thats right or wrong is open for discussion.
 
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So what if a claim does follow. I mean, it's only going to be successful if there genuinely was a breach of a duty of care, otherwise it will just be a waste of the claiments money. AFAIK, there's no strict liability attached to tractor driving
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This is true and everyone is entitled to claim if they want. Im not for or against it, it just made me want to comment when people say that they arent going to try and make money out of it and its all in the name of safety etc...perhaps Im too cynical!
 
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