Help-Legal /Advice Needed...

Jenni_

Jenni_

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Morning all,

This is on behalf of a friend

Friend was looking for a horse, and being new to the area and just settling in, was looking to pay by installments. Made this clear to dealers etc and one matched her up with a lovely horse, and seemed very happy to take installments - stating she'd sold lots of horses in the past like this successfully, and was just happy my friend liked the horse so much.

Friend paid deposit, and continued to pay installments, in full, on time, for the next couple of months. Around this time the dealer seemed to want the horse off the yard asap. So I helped friend find a yard quickly for him to be put on (horse is about 70 miles away from us) So yard was booked, and then dealer changed her mind and said -No, can't have horse untill January (this was AUgust) so she had went back on her word. Friend fights this saying in previous agreement you were happy for him to come through, I'm happy for any agreements to be made so that you know he won't just dissapear etc.

Eventually she says ok I'll bring him through. We find another yard to put him on (first yard now not taking anybody on / off for its own 'constrictive health' reasons - if you know what I mean) and he was due to be delivered today. Friend phones to find out what time last night, and dealer says no, you're not getting him until April, or when he's fully paid off. Plus I want 300 a month livery from you (when he is being kept at grass in a herd)

My friend had paid up on time every time, offered credit checks, references, the lot. She asked for a contract but never got one, but has hundreds of texts and emails outlining the original and second agreements in relation to delivery etc.

I know she should have insisted on a contract from the start- BUT she has lots of paper evidence outlining. As of this month she will have paid 50% of him.

SHe's in a bit of a state and is phoning our local equine lawyer again later, but he had advised her the first time she changed her mind that my friend was legally entitiled to the horse- but I thought I'd see if anyone on here had any experience?

My friend is very quiet and a bit too 'fair' on people. So I get the feeling she is being taken for a bit of a mug.

BTW - dealer is a VERY well known (and respected!) person and I am actually quite shocked with this.

Any help / experiences are appreciated.

Jen
 
no, you're not getting him until April, or when he's fully paid off. Plus I want 300 a month livery from you (when he is being kept at grass in a herd)
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Absolutely fair enough. Did your friend expect the horse to be liveried for free? And neither would I let you have the horse until the monies were paid in full.

Why would your friend think any differently? I can't see any reason why you would be shocked Jenni. They're not a charity - but a business.

Why doesn't your friend just pay the balance, then collect the horse?
 
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Didn't want to read and run but don't know enough to be able to say anything helpful. In your friend's situation I'd probably try to sit down with the dealer around a table and sort things out calmly. I hope she has proof of what she's paid, but unfortunately would also assume dealer could charge her livery for keeping the horse since it's similar to a loan with view to buy situation.

Good luck getting it sorted and I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I am will be along soon.
 
Hold on the now - Amy May, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

I wouldn't have been surprised if that had been the original agreement. No.

BUT my question is can she legally just change agreements. I would expect her to pay livery yes but not 300 for a horse thats out in a field. But that WASN'T my question.

The problem is the women won't let her know any details, so my friend is now stuck in limbo with whos responsible for vets bills, insurance etc - as she was aware the horse was coming to here with a firm contract in place which she was happy with. Dealer has taken money of her and never presented her with either horse, contract, or reason.

And is now charging a heck of a lot more on top for livery than my friend was goign to be paying thorugh here.
 
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bikerchickone said:
Didn't want to read and run but don't know enough to be able to say anything helpful. In your friend's situation I'd probably try to sit down with the dealer around a table and sort things out calmly. I hope she has proof of what she's paid, but unfortunately would also assume dealer could charge her livery for keeping the horse since it's similar to a loan with view to buy situation.

Good luck getting it sorted and I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I am will be along soon.
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She's got bank statements etc. she had proof of every conversation, just not a contract.

She's happy to pay livery!! But the dealer couldn't get the horse off the yard quick enough at one point, and then changed her mind. She'd have been happy to pay livery if that was the agreement from the start, not 'hurry up and find somewhere for him, oh good you have, well you can't have him now'
 
The problem is the women won't let her know any details, so my friend is now stuck in limbo with whos responsible for vets bills, insurance etc
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The owner, i.e the Dealer, is responsible for the horse - as your friend does not own it.

So, if your friend now settles her bill - she can get the horse.
 
The easiest way to buy a horse it to just pay for it in full and bring it home.

Installment arrangements are always open to problems.

I think your friend is on a hiding to nothing, she has no horse and no contract.

I personally wouldn't waste money on a legal fight and put it down to experience as she doesn't actually own the horse.

PS Why is she happy to pay livery, just pay up the horse and bring him home, if the dealer doesn't get funny and say your friend has no claim on the horse. As for bank statements showing amounts paid the dealer could give any number of reasons why money is paid into her account if she wants to get funny
 
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It really is going to depend on what the original agreement was with the dealer, has she got it in writing that the dealer was happy for her to take the horse whilst it wasnt paid for? I cant imagine any dealer letting a horse leave without being paid for in full. He also maybe being kept at grass in a herd but surely he will need hay, feed, worming & the farrier in this time, although it seems a little steep i dont know what grass livery charges are in the area.
 
If your friend is happy for credit checks etc to be taken she must be credit worthy, so imo she should just get a shortterm bank loan and pay for the horse and take him.
I also wouldn't let a horse or car go without full payment.
 
navaho said:
It really is going to depend on what the original agreement was with the dealer, has she got it in writing that the dealer was happy for her to take the horse whilst it wasnt paid for? I cant imagine any dealer letting a horse leave without being paid for in full. He also maybe being kept at grass in a herd but surely he will need hay, feed, worming & the farrier in this time, although it seems a little steep i dont know what grass livery charges are in the area.
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Yup, she has all that in emails and texts. Also emails and texts asking her to let her know postcodes of the yard etc for drop off. Dealer initiated she was very happy with this arrangement if it meant my friend would take the horse as they were very well suited. If I'd known she was going to do this I would have steered her clear but I didn't know at the time.

He's not being fed (does quite well) no hay either. shoes are off, so only a trim.

We can get grass livery here from anything from £80 - £100 a month, the 100 a month one being with hay in the field and staff checks - so it is a bit steep.
 
This is going to sound really harsh but a verbal agreement is difficult to prove even with text messages etc. Realistically as Amymay says the only way to collect the horse is to pay the bill in full to take ownership of it, until then, rightly or wrongly, the dealer holds all the cards.

With the amount of horses who go missing these days I'm not surprised she's said your friend can't take the horse until it's paid for. Maybe her wanting him off the yard asap was a hint that she wanted him paid for more quickly too?

Not a good situation to be in, but if your friend can raise the cash to complete the sale I'd suggest she does.
 
Without a contract I think this would be a very difficult one to establish. If your friend has proof of the conversations, it's possible that it could be proven in small claims court that the dealer had reneged on the original agreement with regard to moving the horse off the yard. But you'd need specifics re everything, such as the timescales for payment, confirmation that the dealer said you could move the horse on or after xx date, and the cost of livery. Presumably your friend has agreed to some livery costs for the time the horse was there, as it's not reasonable to expect the dealer to keep him for free. If specific costs were not discussed/evidenced, then you're probably on a hiding to nothing as the dealer can charge what they feel is 'reasonable' and it would be difficult/probably expensive to prove otherwise.

In order to have a good chance, you would need to prove in court that an amount had been agreed and that more had been charged with specifics and evidence. I also believe that your friend would need to pay the livery and then sue for its return, so she'd be no better off in the long run and would face the possibility of losing, plus any costs incurred on top.

If I were her, I'd get a credit card with a good promotional rate on it, pay the dealer and move the horse ASAP.
 
The horse was to be moved after the deposit in the original agreement, so there were no agreements on livery. But it just went from there...

I've said about just getting the money together but I think she's just a bit annoyed that someone could be dishonest and take the mick out of people.

As I said, I was really shocked as I've never heard anything but good about the person.

May have had a small breakthrough, looks like she might allow him to move if she chooses the yard - which is somoething my friend offered her ages ago. But she's got a funny taste in yards...
 
With someone who has been moving the goalposts I would be very concerned that the deal may fall through

Personally I would be borrowing the money and drawing a line under all of the problems then your friend is free to move the horse wherever she wants
 
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