Help - Lurcher who sometimes runs off.

[littlebranshill]

I have a year old lurcher/long dog (greyhoundXdeerhound) boy which I rescued and have had for 6 months now. He is boistrous and independent. I take him to training and he has passed his Silver Good Citz with his Gold on the way. When I first had him I kept him on the lead for a month before letting him off to get a bond with him. I live next to some large woods and sometimes he sticks with me but on other occasions when he gets the scent of something he is off and can be gone for up to 10 mins before coming back exhausted and me a nervous wreck but I always praise him for coming back with tasty treats. If I take him anywhere else for walks I put him on a harness and long line as I can't risk him running off. Does anyone have any success stories where their dog has pissed off to begin with but has settled and stopped running off when they've matured. I know its in the breed as they are sighthounds but I've seen greyhounds off lead and being at heel with their owner. I just want mine to do it too!!! I have tried delicious treats and practising recall til I'm blue in the face (he does this great until he gets that scent).

 

[CorvusCorax]

I have a bolter and a strong prey driven dog and TBH they are both on leads unless they are at home in our field or in a fenced area where I can see where they are all the time (we have a good long back lane or two where this happens).

B ran off twice in the space of a week about this time last year and that fear in that short ten or fifteen minutes that he would get run over or shot (it would happen here) or cause an accident was awful.
He is 99.9% reliable in our safe areas but I would not risk it again.
The bolter is a bolter, seemingly insignificant things panic her and nothing I have tried would over-ride that. But she is tonnes more confident than she used to be.

Between their hooning and jogging and hillwalking they still get plenty of exercise.

Stick at it, it took me about a year long lining to get him to even look back at me, and work your backside off at it, day in, day out, and he may well come good, it's only been six months.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

One of my lurchers, whose recall is normally reliable, has got a mind of her own at the mo, must be something in the air! As CC says, best to let him run off lead in a secure field & if that it isn't possible, a longline & some recall refresher training. There will always be the possibility that his chase instinct will over-run ('scuse the pun) his learned behaviour at some point if he sights something of interest .:

 

[Oberon]

It is a difficult one when they are so independant. At least he comes back eventually!

My Utonagan has a strong prey drive but my old GSDx keeps him in check as she never strays and he won't leave her.

From our first walks he learnt that if he leaves us - we will not follow. He has left the pack and he must deal with the consequences of that. He is very pack driven though so that works for him.

I am in charge of where we go so if he wanders down the sea wall - I stop and wait for him to come back, then I go my way and he must follow me.

If he goes further away from me than I feel comfortable with, I stand still. He sees I'm stood and comes back to me, then I move. We do that quite a lot to reinforce it.

I suppose my only advice to you would be to strengthen your position at home. ie - you go everywhere in front of him. He eats after you. He moves out of your way. He comes to you within the house at any time you feel like calling him etc etc.

And just give him some time.

 

[3DE]

From our first walks he learnt that if he leaves us - we will not follow. He has left the pack and he must deal with the consequences of that. He is very pack driven though so that works for him.

I agree fully with this!

I have an equally independent lurcher who would disappear for 4 hours at a time on the chase of something. I eventually resorted to an electric collar to call him through feel as he 'wouldn't' hear. I used it on it's lowest setting, merely as communication so I could praise him when he returned. It worked 99% of the time but some days he just stuck 2 fingers up and carried on regardless (and I wouldn't use the EC as a punishment - that I don't agree with).

I went to a training class with a guy called Jim Greenwood who specialises is pointy training and rehab. Basically he explained that what I was teaching my dog was that he could run off without consequence - he would eventually return in his own steam to much praise from me for doing so. I asked him what I was supposed to do - tell him off and he would be scared (or at least reluctant) of coming back.

He said when he returns give him the could shoulder. Say nothing. Blank him. Exclude him from the pack.

They soon learn that they have to stay with you to keep them in good favour.

Checkout www.lurcherlink.org - wealth of information and support

 

[Alec Swan]

littlebranshill,

Put being a nervous wreck behind you, and forget re-call and treats upon his return. Remain in the place where you were when he buggered off, and importantly, remain SILENT.

When you are calling him, by whistle or by voice, and when he's having a high old time, he will know EXACTLY where you are, and will be more than happy to carry on with his high jinks. Remain totally silent and still, and when he hears nothing then he'll come to look for you. By not calling him, you will introduce doubt into his mind. Make him look for you, not the other way around.

If he takes off after a hare, then remember that hares generally run in a circle. The hare, assuming that he doesn't catch it, will bring him back to you! He will find you. Never reward unacceptable behaviour. A dog which is genuinely lost will come back to you in a submissive fashion. On the rare occasions when I've had a dog take off, with no regard for me, then upon their return, they get a large dose of verbals, and the air is a very dark blue! They soon learn. Never allow a coursing dog loose, to enjoy himself in either a collar or a harness. You're asking for an accident to happen.

Alec.

 

[Maesfen]

I think you've done very well considering you didn't have him as a pup and you've only had him for six months. I think you've got to allow him a bit of freedom though as long as you are in a safe place and not close to a road he can get on or something and make him look for you so don't be in exactly the same spot you were when he left; make him think you've left him, that way they usually stick a bit closer than if you wait and wait and wait. I agree too with the don't make a fuss of him when he comes back even though you are thrilled to bits that he's back; he has to work to get back into your good books.
This is probably where I make myself very unpopular but it's something I feel strongly about for the sake of the dog, any dog at all.
A dog should be in the situation where it is allowed to be as natural as possible for the breed/type it is. So if you don't want your collie to herd your chickens then have another breed; if you don't want your terrier to go down holes or chase rabbits, then have another breed, if you don't want your longdog to run free and independent, then have another breed; if you don't want your retreiver retreiving everything in sight, then have another breed; if you don't want your hound to go hunting then have another breed and so on; I know it's a generalisation as no two dogs of the same breed are alike but you get the drift of where I'm coming from.
You can't expect breeds which have been bred down the ages to do certain jobs to change their entire inbuilt work ethics just to suit you, it's totally unfair on them. Sorry, just my view though, people need to think what dog behaviour is acceptable to them and choose wisely, it could save so many being rehomed I think because people have the wrong expectations of the breed they choose, they don't all think or conform to their ideal.

Agree with Alec 100%

 

[Alec Swan]

Maesfen,

and I, you.

Alec.

 

[3DE]

And I agree with both of you Lets start the lurcher appreciation society

 

[Maesfen]

And I agree with both of you Lets start the lurcher appreciation society

You can count me in on that for sure!

 

[Brownmare]

I think you have been given some very sound advice, some of which I will borrow being in the same situation myself. I have an 18 month old whippet who I adopted 2 months ago (he had been handed in to rescue because he likes to chase rabbits!!! ) and one thing I have found is that I can stop him if I call him back to me in the instant I see his body language change to say he has got a scent / sight of something exciting (he sort of stiffens up - hard to describe) but if I leave it until he is running at full speed it's too late. i have also been known to run off a short way and hide when he b*ggers off to panic him into keeping an eye on me, also I often turn round and start walking the other way without saying anything to get him into the habit of keeping an eye on me.

And now we need some pictures of the lovely boy himself please

 

[CorvusCorax]

Really interesting about the hare Alec, I never thought of that, on The Great Big Tank Off #2 the dog actually re-appeared from the trees at exactly the same point as where he had disappeared, only he came from the opposite side of the path and I never figured out why, how, or more, why I didn't notice him crossing my path!
And neither time was he submissive - more CHECK ME OOOOOOUT!!!! I'm Awesome!!! Did you see me run?

I agree with you too P, by the way, re breeds and what they were meant to do! I know I probably sound very over-cautious, but I live in Sheep Country and there is a very busy, fast road running through parts of where we walk so I try to be as super-careful as I can and forget not everyone lives in hazards-ville

Ah, you learn something new every day, and I could have saved my voice too.....

 

[littlebranshill]

Thanks very much everyone for your helpful replies. Next time he comes back I will give him the cold shoulder and totally ignore him. How long should I do this for before acknowledging him? I don't want to scold him as surely this will put him off coming back to me? I know he is a lurcher and don't want to change him having a great run I just want him to have his run where I can see him!

 

[3DE]

How long should I do this for before acknowledging him?

Until he's grovelling You will know how long is long enough. Look for signs like him licking his lips, yawning, and low wagging of the tail.

Some take minutes, others hours. My number one dog took 2 days to actually click that he was being ignored (dumb dog) but once he realised he was beside himself trying to get back in my good books.

Remember though - they will always run off - it's the nature of the breed. You just have to be more alert than you would be with a 'normal' dog and make sure you get their attention before they run. The second they have gone - it's too late

 

[soloabe]

Look for signs like him licking his lips, yawning, and low wagging of the tail.

Are you serious? Those are signs of a pretty stressed out dog.

 

[3DE]

Are you serious? Those are signs of a pretty stressed out dog.

Actually they are calming signals that dogs show to diffuse a situation. Yes a dog that does them is stressed and it does them to pacify. If a dog isn't doing those signals then the discipline hasn't actually worked as the dog couldn't care less... Signs like that show that the dog is trying to pacify and fit back into the pack.

 

[littlebranshill]

Actually they are calming signals that dogs show to diffuse a situation. Yes a dog that does them is stressed and it does them to pacify. If a dog isn't doing those signals then the discipline hasn't actually worked as the dog couldn't care less... Signs like that show that the dog is trying to pacify and fit back into the pack.

How do you know all this stuff? Is it by lifelong experience or is there a good book I could read?

 

[soloabe]

Actually they are calming signals that dogs show to diffuse a situation. Yes a dog that does them is stressed and it does them to pacify. If a dog isn't doing those signals then the discipline hasn't actually worked as the dog couldn't care less... Signs like that show that the dog is trying to pacify and fit back into the pack.

Great that it works for you but punishing my dog for coming back is not something i want to put my dog through.

 

[3DE]

Great that it works for you but punishing my dog for coming back is not something i want to put my dog through.

You aren't punishing the dog, you are showing your displeasure in a way that the dog understands and will not be afraid of. By rewarding the dog for coming back, after it has run off, you are teaching it that it can do whatever it wants and can still come back for praise - this in not the way to do it...

Actually punishing the dog will make it feared, treating a dog in this manner will make the dog actually want to be with you more - no dog wants to be ejected from the pack.

K_H - if you had a lurcher that ran away you would have many problems using the methods you are hinting at (though I cannot find any actual advice you have given yourself, only criticism of others...).


Littlebrandshill - there is a lady called Turid Rugaas who speaks a lot of sense. Trainers who specialise in difficult dogs, for example Jim Greenwood of Lurcher Link, follows her methods.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

Have a look at her ideas and then look at your dog's behaviours - you will look at your dog in a new light...

 

[kirstyl]

I agree fully with this!

I have an equally independent lurcher who would disappear for 4 hours at a time on the chase of something. I eventually resorted to an electric collar to call him through feel as he 'wouldn't' hear. I used it on it's lowest setting, merely as communication so I could praise him when he returned. It worked 99% of the time but some days he just stuck 2 fingers up and carried on regardless (and I wouldn't use the EC as a punishment - that I don't agree with).

I went to a training class with a guy called Jim Greenwood who specialises is pointy training and rehab. Basically he explained that what I was teaching my dog was that he could run off without consequence - he would eventually return in his own steam to much praise from me for doing so. I asked him what I was supposed to do - tell him off and he would be scared (or at least reluctant) of coming back.

He said when he returns give him the could shoulder. Say nothing. Blank him. Exclude him from the pack.

They soon learn that they have to stay with you to keep them in good favour.

Checkout www.lurcherlink.org - wealth of information and support

Brilliant website, thank you for letting us know it exists! Can I persuade my husband that we should have a second lurcher? Lots of worthy candidates here!

 

[TarrSteps]

How do you know all this stuff? Is it by lifelong experience or is there a good book I could read?

For lurcher specific reading, get hold of a copy of "The House Lurcher". It's pretty exhaustive so there will be quite a bit in there you don't need, but it's a very good primer on the breed and how they tick. At least you won't feel alone!

Lurchers do seem to be particularly horrid adolescents (a point many pointy dog people told me and which The House Lurcher makes on almost the first page!). I'm sure there are many exceptions - and equally trying "teenage" dogs of other breeds - but almost everyone I've talked to has said the elements of "lurcher-ness" that try your patience most, including a tendency to take a hike when they feel like it, are worst at that age. My older dog was a horror from about 10-16 months and he is, by lurcher standards anyway, pretty easy. Even the younger one, with Lab in her, has had her moments.

Part of what makes people not want to let them off lead (other than the potential hunting issue) is that they're so damn fast. And I'm convinced, once they're in full flight, they literally can't hear you. (Although they do a good line in convenient deafness anyway. ) One thing that made a big difference to recall with mine is to use a whistle, as they will answer that even when they don't seem to be able to hear my voice. (Unfortunately I used the whistle I can do, not a commercial one, so my OH has less success getting them to attend)

I agree with the hiding idea. I've really scared mine a few times and it's done them good. Don't let him think you're going to trail around the countryside, following his lead. And get yourself some really good treats to practice the recall with. It can be tricky with lurchers to find something they consider worth coming back for! Do intermittent reward training, where, after the initial few sessions, you don't reward every time he comes back but keep "checking in" regularly, sometimes giving him a treat, sometimes not. Obviously pick your area, too. Mine are pretty good but there are places I just don't let them get too far away from me and other areas where they know it's "safe" to range further afield.

Mine definitely know to keep me in sight, although I have to understand that means THEIR site, not mine, from their point of view. They can't understand how far away is "okay" unless I tell them.

Also, make sure he gets lots of exercise. I have a few places I take mine where they can really let loose and we're all much happier for it!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just to add, and it is a mistake I have made in the past on here before, but certain breeds and types of dog respond better to certain methods than others.
I was coming at things, as I always do, from a GSD/working/herding breed point of view. I accept that the motivations and reactions can be very different and I am not an expert on sighthounds.

PS I just whispered at my dogs to stop barking at the Duke of Ed students in the yard. It didn't work.

 

[3DE]

PS I just whispered at my dogs to stop barking at the Duke of Ed students in the yard. It didn't work.

I've got 4 lurchers and none bark - not their thing - they just eff off instead.

Tarsteps - when you say about them not hearing - that is soooo true. I got an EC for mine (on the lowest setting). Now adays though they have vibrating collars for deaf dogs - I love my one of these. They know that buzz means come here and get a treat The respond sometimes Well most of the time but not always lol

 

[3DE]

Brilliant website, thank you for letting us know it exists! Can I persuade my husband that we should have a second lurcher? Lots of worthy candidates here!

I know two 12 week old lurcher pups for rehoming (though not on LL). Saluki x lab - we have two of the litter and there is a black bitch and a chocolate dog still needs homing. They have been in foster homes so are fully housetrained and know basic commands

They look like this (my two)

 

[CAYLA]

I agree with some sentiments but not others and I would deem it pretty unsafe to have a dog bugger off for 4 hours and would not be so lax as to leave it, however I have never ever had an issues with any of my sight hounds and poor recall, even in mid chase, I have a pack of 10 dogs and half are sight hounds including a staff/pit x grey x whippet who was a previous determined to kill any dog I see type of dog in her previous homes.
A deerhound, a whippet a whippet x grey and a bedlington x deerhound x collie.
Have had saluki x greys (not the brightest) but never had an issues with recall or buggering off.

I do think working breeds and natural instinct are one of the hardest traits to train with, esp in regard to recall but it can be done otherwise from the 20+ lurchers I have owned I would surely have one that had crap recall all where rescues, some previous racing dogs, I also take greyhounds in for the greyhound rescue here to make them cat friendly and make it so they can go to a new home with the opportunity of off lead exercise and have never had any issues with them either and they have also too be a bunch of greedy beggers that would hang close for the opportunity of a bit of cheese)

Infact the hardest dog I have trained which took 6 months on the longline was the wirehaired pointer who in his previous home fecked off for hours (I would worried.

(A) if the dog would be injured or injure someone else, or cause an accident, or (B) be caught and never returned to me)

Lurchers are actually pretty easy in regard to recall, esp in comparison to huskies and akita who are (hard work)
All my lurchers have been worked by OH so they have caught and killed.


I have an akita, wire haired pointer, sight hounds, and they are rarely exercised on a lead and have fantastic recall, I would not be happy with my dog beggering off and if It did then as CC first suggested I would work hard to reinstate some training to help with that, long line and some focus, and lurchers are not that hard to train with treats, I have never owned a sight hound that would not return for a treat (have had a few pups that prefer the lure of a teddy) but that was maybe 2 from the vast amount I have had in, I think a good bond, lots of dog owner contact play as suggested games of hide and seek both indoors and out and long line and I will agree a bit of RESPECT goes along way, my dogs no doubt return even when they dearly seek the small moving creature but my firm command and the fear of reprimand is enough to stop them dead in their tracks.
I have never actually punished a dog for not returning just use my usual voice and with is show the usual disprovement I would in any situation I would need to which learns them not the push the boundary in all other aspects when the "voice" is changed along with my body language.
I also agree with no over praise whern the dog has run from your sight and ignored the recalls, but def praise like mad and make a game when he returns to you and hasnot run from sight and has returned even on the 3rd recall, I used masses of praise for the staff x lurcher when she would run half way between me and a fluffy yorki, I would yell "Tia" and she would stop glnace at me and glance at the dog and slink back, and I would def "say, good girl and give her a ruff stroke and engage play" if she had ran on, then as suggested she would not have been praised when she returned, jsut placed on her lead and with a sharp tug and I would ignore her the rest of the walk, now she is fab, she even glances a dog in the distance then glances me or OH looking for guidance and checking to see if we are looking at her "which we always are"

So I would have to say for me sight hounds are a breeze comapred to certain other breed.
I would also say that of the dogs I have worked with and their owners they always go back to the same place to walk, a route there dog knows well (another mistake) and are to inpatient to keep letting them off without putting the ground work in.

 

[CAYLA]

Also to add as read back a little, I would def carry on with treats, but in the mind set you do not give them when he returns when he feels like it, but when you have asked him to and he has complied, and switch to high reward treats, cheese, sausage, and use a positive associator I think as alec swan suggested a whistle, this way you do not have to scream like a banshee
As much I agree with being firm I dont agree with taking positive reward away if the dog responds to it (as in will even take it) my pointer is neither treat or toy orientated so firmness and patience was the way, but if they will take atreat def work on that. IMO anyway

 

[Alec Swan]

With Lurchers, as all dogs, I suppose, breeding has a huge influence. As someone else said, Salukis tend to be a bit dim, or selfish, I've yet to actually make my mind up! Having seen a good few Greyhound/Saluki first crosses, I've tended to avoid them. The Saluki will certainly put distance into a dog, and many will kill a hare at 1000 yards, but few will bother to retrieve over that distance, the hare being too heavy, after such a long run.

Lurchers were originally the dog of the Gipsy, and game, certainly pre 1900, formed a major part of the diet of those who travelled. Today, I suspect, that most keep coursing dogs for the sport, and simply to see them travelling at full tilt.

There are many who have theories regarding the breeding of lurchers. For myself, I see very few that I would want, where a cross bred dog has been put on a cross bred bitch. They seem to be too heavy. That's not all of them, obviously, but certainly a large proportion.

All the best dogs which I've seen or owned, have always come from a greyhound bitch. Over her was put a half bred dog, or pure bred dog, with known pace. Whippet, Bedlington or Deerhound, works well, and I'm sure that there are others. Rarely have I seen a Collie/Greyhound first cross, that I'd want, though that could well be because the dam was a sheepdog.

I've had many greyhounds over the years, and though I've never done it, I've always been tempted to take an 8 week old pup and rear it in the house, as you would any other dog. Most greyhounds come from the track, and many seem to be ill disciplined. A bit like those horses which have raced, in that you have to go back to the basics, and it can be hard work! Teaching a dog which is two years old, its name, is leaving things a bit late, in my view!

So often we hear people say that coursing dogs rely upon their sighting abilities, and not their noses. Most coursing dogs will use their nose, and to good effect. Many times I've watched a returning dog, who's looking for me, cross his own tracks, put his head on the floor, and back track, to where I'm waiting, in silence. The reason for silence, is that if you're not supposed to be where you are, then it's asking for trouble if you stand in a field bawling your head off, and blowing whistles. Drawing attention to yourself, isn't generally a very good idea!!

Alec.

 

[CAYLA]

I will have to agree to disagree re the saluki crossed, my OH's best dog to date was a saluki x whippet that would retrieve to hand without fail, hares and rabbits, he also had a saluki x greyhound again had no issues carrying hare back over a distance.
I have never had issues training X racing greys or lurchers from over the 2 year mark either, having a mother than runs a rescue means we have to work with these dogs in order to rehome and the grey are handed in at around the 2-3 year mark, and IMO they are very trainable, and with most pet dogs people dont want dogs scenting back and sauntering on till they reach the owner, esp if there is reason to have the dog back quicker, (another dog, nearby road) then recall is a msut and if we do not expect our dogs to be crystal balls they have to associate something with recall) my lurchers never have their head down and make their way back retracing my steps to hwere I was they spot me immediately and head striaght for me, head held high.
No doubt lurchers can find an owner by sight as I doubt in the dead of the night (the time my OH would work his dogs) you do not want to draw attention by shouting or whistling and the dog has to catch up with handler as they do not wait in one spot for them, that would be a sure fire way for the game keeper to find you however in an eyeryday sceanrio whilst walking a pet, recall and not mind games is a must, esp when you are working with a probelm dogs and you want them back pronto.
Im sure bedlington x collies are a choice for most, they are cute and look good to the eye, does not generally mean they will be the better worker, as over the 20+ years my OH has lamped with his dogs and the vast amount of lurchers he has had his saluki x whippet is always the best worker he has ever had. and he is more a deerhound X type but like he always says, he does not particurlarly mind the X, as long as it does the job and well.
I shall have to try and get him to come on here when there are lurcher posts/debates Im sure he would love it, he explains things better than me re lurchers (in a woking sense), but the input I can give, of all the dogs I have trained, sight hounds and greys are very easy to work with, it's the spangle, doberman and husky owners I feel for

Also apologies I thought is was you would mentioned whislte, it was indeed Tarsteps, should should read , I agree with Tarsteps a whistle is a good associator/aid when training a pet to recall, lest not forget some lurchers are worked and are pets, others are soimply pets, and for this the basics of recall need to be reinstated and correct aid used, thats what they are there for and can make life a lot easier for owner and dog.
Oh will allow the dogs to return naturally when hunting with them, as obs they are working and as explained you cannot go whistling and shouting what maybe on private land but he does whistle for them when out for a walk, (not a whistle) but via his mouth, somethign I can never do and they are back within seconds not scenting, no messing, full on sprint

 

[FestiveSpirit]

LOL - very interesting thread OP I would like to reassure you, I have had sighthounds (whippets, ex-racing greyhounds and lurchers) for 20 years and they do NOT all bugger off into the distance as a matter of course Mine have always, always been walked off the lead and have great recall - you have got to remember they are as greedy as hell so keeping a piece of cheese or cold sausage handy will do no harm at all

As far as all the theories about giving them the cold shoulder when they do return etc? Never done it with mine, never had a problem I just call them back as if they had never gone away, give them a slight fuss as I always do when I put them on the lead, and walk on as if nothing had happened. Just like with my little TB horse, the more you react to their behaviour (whether positively or negatively) the more they will react to you

Mine have gone off hunting after things, they are sighthounds after all so have a decent prey drive I am lucky that I walk them in a pretty secure area, so I let them get on with it for a while then if I am nearing the end of the walk I give them a whistle and they come dashing back

 

[3DE]

OP - I hope you are feeling a bit more optimistic. Yes, lurchers can be hardwork, but they will come god in the end - they just take a lot of persistence...

One last thing I would like to add before I leave this thread (I don't appreciate being called lax) is if you use a long line be careful. If your dog sets off at full pelt, when he reaches the end of it he is going to either break your wrist (it's happened to me - 35kg dog pulled me over) or his neck! Make sure you use a harness with a long line. It is the only situation where I would use harness but on a long line its essential.