Help me make sense of this pony please

maya2008 said:
Is she ok for people she knows to fully palpate all over her back, lift up legs etc? Was she better in the old saddle?

I think honestly you can go in two directions at this point. You can decide to keep her regardless, throw the book at finding out what is going on and if nothing veterinary is found, spend the money for someone good to work on behaviour.

Or

Send her back, save your money, time and daughter’s confidence.

Only you can decide which one to do.

Only thing I can really add is that while usually it is vet related, sometimes it isn’t. The people we bought my son’s jumping pony from had a similar experience to you. They did every vet investigation under the sun - and she arrived here spitting fire, angry and dangerous on the ground. We are now two months in, my son is madly in love and she is manageable so long as you accept her preferences. I cannot see how she ever would be happy on a livery yard though - she needs things in her routine you just cannot provide outside of a private setup. Some things are always going to be an issue too: she has saddle trauma for example, so if you even change the colour of the pad she gets suspicious and goes on the attack when you approach.

That said, we were told she jumps, and having got her fit and a saddle she likes, we headed out last weekend to arena hire. Oh my does she jump - and she is so happy doing it! Lit up, bright, ears pricked and confident. We kept them low due to fitness levels but she absolutely flew.

For us, it was worth the work.
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Up until coming in to season last week she has been fine to mess around with her back which makes me think its related to her being in season. She came with no tack so my daughter who is 5 stone dripping wet has been riding her in a Shetland bareback pad but we wanted a proper saddle for more security once we started working her more. It could be she is objecting to it after not having had a "real" saddle on since March.

I wouldn't say she is angry in any way on the ground, just used to walking all over people when she is stressed which has obviously been quite a lot. Ours also jumps very well, or did in her advert videos by ridden by the dealer and also for my daughter when we tried her. I will try sharing a photo of what she did to the first trotting pole we tried her over a few week ago - its' impressive! So I am hoping it will be worth the work for us too.
 
SpeedyPony said:
Regarding the fussy in the stable/tied up, if she's had bad experiences, or just never been taught to stable/tie properly that may well cause her to be stressed in those situations, even if she's not a naturally spooky/anxious horse. You may be able to teach her to accept stabling, or she may always be one that has to be kept out. I certainly would not ask her to stable/tie without another horse nearby until she's much more settled- once she's used to the idea she may come to accept you being there as enough.
As for the rest, I think it's a good idea to take her right back to basics as you are doing, if your daughter is interested in working with her on the ground that will help once she's ready to be ridden as they will both have a bit more of a rapport. Given that she was well behaved under saddle at the viewing, I would be hopeful that once she's settled down she will be a nice, if green, pony for you.
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Sounds like its been tied in a stable and thumped so a stable triggers anxiety, and being on her own. I would train her to stand untied, you just reward standing and put her quietly back in her place when she moves with a hanging rope.
I have had two Irish mares and they were both nervous in stables, one would stand and quiver, unfortunately people and some dealers, will use them as punishment areas.
 
honetpot said:
Sounds like its been tied in a stable and thumped so a stable triggers anxiety, and being on her own. I would train her to stand untied, you just reward standing and put her quietly back in her place when she moves with a hanging rope.
I have had two Irish mares and they were both nervous in stables, one would stand and quiver, unfortunately people and some dealers, will use them as punishment areas.
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Sadly, as you've said, some people are nasty to them in the stable (because they can't get away?), but complete unfamiliarity with stabling can also cause stress. It's easy to forget that the stable isn't a natural environment for the horse!
If you take a horse that has spent the first 3-5 years of his life out at pasture, 24/7/365 and suddenly move him onto a yard where he will be expected to be stabled 8-12 hours a day, he'll experience serious culture shock. Some adjust well immediately, some take a bit longer and some are so rattled by the change that they're never happy stabled.
My old boy wasn't mistreated in the stable, but he went from 24/7 turnout to being kept in full time when he went away for backing (in hindsight, a terrible idea, but I was young and stupid!). He was only kept in for three weeks, but it's had a lasting effect- 14 years later he's still impossible to stable.
 
I know many people who have been in your position.

Buy a horse then 2/3 months in things get tough. It happens to many people. It does get better!

She doesn’t sound like a bad horse , just misunderstood. You could search and search for problems, but she may just not have accepted you as her people yet, let her come round , let her have her guard up. Mares take a while to warm up to people.
 
In your position if you’re keeping the pony, I would do two things. The first, I would have started day 1 - a course of omeprazole. She’d need a stomach of iron not to have ulcers by now tbh.

The second thing I would do is bute trial. You’ve done the usual things, so I’d do a few days of bute and see.

If she becomes calmer, easier, happier in any way - then she’s in pain and you need to find it.

If she becomes far WORSE - the bute is probably irritating her presumed ulcers.

If absolutely no difference, then I’d go down the behaviour route and try chill her out/give her time. Which tbh, no matter which route you take or what you find, she’s asking for a month in the field to me.

The above is just what I’d do, not advising.
 
jhoward said:
If she's been treated badly and has been stressed then I think the ridden side is way to much to soon. Also if she's as green as you say
Get her out for short hacks let her find her balance, keep the school work short and productive lots of changes if reins etc.
I certainly wouldn't be trying to jump her.
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Up until this week we have been riding for no more than 30 minutes at a time 3 times a week and have been venturing out on little in hand hacks in between to get her used to the area so will keep doing that.

The jump was totally unexpected - our instructor put it out to check she wasn't going to be terrified if we did some trot poles and that was the result.
 
Just coming back to this thread with another update for anyone who is following our journey.

It's been another week or so of highs and lows.

On one hand my daughter rode her out for a gentle walking hack round the local woods and fields with me on foot leading our Section A - the new pony was happy to go in front or behind, didn't stop to snack, only spooked once at a jogger running towards us and was generally very chilled (compared to the section a who was a little shi*t the whole walk!) Now she is out of season she is back to letting us touch her all over with minimal face pulling. Last night I lunged her to get the energy out and then daughter hopped on briefly while I lunged and she was OK but still has that worried stressed look on her face the whole time.

On the other hand we had another impressive bucking episode in a lesson towards the end of her being in season and some really rude fidgeting for the physio who came a few days later. Findings of that visit were that she was tight across lumbar, hamstrings and poll and really resisted releasing the tension as she was on high alert every time she heard another horse or a car outside. Shes had a week of an omeprazole trial which has made no real difference that I can tell and is now on chaste tree berries in the hope that her next season won't be as dramatic!

Add to that I am getting conflicting advice that she either needs the pressure taken off with minimal schooling and more hacking to let her settle mentally, or that we need to work her harder to keep her brain occupied and burn off the excess energy!
 
I've over 50 years horse owning experience and in my younger days helped sort out ponies with issues for their owners. My take on your pony is this. I think that the pony has been put into a stable and beaten by someone. This would account for her behaviour of nervous poos etc. I also think she has been left tied for many hours, possibly a night and a day and possibly without food. I have known this happen, it's an old fashioned idea to break their spirit. You state she isn't spooky. I honestly think that inside she is generally a lovely pony who just needs to trust and learn that people are kind and not cruel. I would be leading her into a stable and giving some tasty chaff in a bucket,talk soothingly then when she's eaten up take her out of the stable and turn out. Do twice a day for as long as it takes for her to be ok with this. Could be several weeks. Next introduce a small haynet in the stable and leave her with it for twenty minutes and turn out. Do twice a day. Build up from there. Could take months. Never ever speak harshly to her in the stable or take a stick in. Same applies for tying up. Take her for inhand walks around the local area and ménage if you have one. Forget about riding for at least six months. Then start her as if she's unbacked and never had a saddle on. Go slowly with her education and you've every chance of having a cracking good pony.
 
lrw0250 said:
Just coming back to this thread with another update for anyone who is following our journey.

It's been another week or so of highs and lows.

On one hand my daughter rode her out for a gentle walking hack round the local woods and fields with me on foot leading our Section A - the new pony was happy to go in front or behind, didn't stop to snack, only spooked once at a jogger running towards us and was generally very chilled (compared to the section a who was a little shi*t the whole walk!) Now she is out of season she is back to letting us touch her all over with minimal face pulling. Last night I lunged her to get the energy out and then daughter hopped on briefly while I lunged and she was OK but still has that worried stressed look on her face the whole time.

On the other hand we had another impressive bucking episode in a lesson towards the end of her being in season and some really rude fidgeting for the physio who came a few days later. Findings of that visit were that she was tight across lumbar, hamstrings and poll and really resisted releasing the tension as she was on high alert every time she heard another horse or a car outside. Shes had a week of an omeprazole trial which has made no real difference that I can tell and is now on chaste tree berries in the hope that her next season won't be as dramatic!

Add to that I am getting conflicting advice that she either needs the pressure taken off with minimal schooling and more hacking to let her settle mentally, or that we need to work her harder to keep her brain occupied and burn off the excess energy!
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My girl presents as a bargy cob, but it’s taken me a while (far too long) to realise that that is how she expresses anxiety.
I need to remember not to be cross with her when she is being pushy or bargy. I need to recognise that she is feeling and expressing anxiety and I need to work on reducing that anxiety, not punishing the resulting behaviour.

Could that be what your girls ‘rude fidgeting’ was?
 
Sanversera said:
I've over 50 years horse owning experience and in my younger days helped sort out ponies with issues for their owners. My take on your pony is this. I think that the pony has been put into a stable and beaten by someone. This would account for her behaviour of nervous poos etc. I also think she has been left tied for many hours, possibly a night and a day and possibly without food. I have known this happen, it's an old fashioned idea to break their spirit. You state she isn't spooky. I honestly think that inside she is generally a lovely pony who just needs to trust and learn that people are kind and not cruel. I would be leading her into a stable and giving some tasty chaff in a bucket,talk soothingly then when she's eaten up take her out of the stable and turn out. Do twice a day for as long as it takes for her to be ok with this. Could be several weeks. Next introduce a small haynet in the stable and leave her with it for twenty minutes and turn out. Do twice a day. Build up from there. Could take months. Never ever speak harshly to her in the stable or take a stick in. Same applies for tying up. Take her for inhand walks around the local area and ménage if you have one. Forget about riding for at least six months. Then start her as if she's unbacked and never had a saddle on. Go slowly with her education and you've every chance of having a cracking good pony.
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We are currently trying to build up her time in the stable and it's not been too bad because both ponies either side of her are currently in during the day because of laminitis risk so with feed and a treat ball we get about 10 minutes tops before she starts kicking the door and box walking - I think she would struggle to jump out but I worry she will try. The odd thing is she will walk in to the stable quiet as a lamb, no panicking or planting.

The riding is trickier. When you have a 12 year old who wants to be out competing like she was on her old pony and doing pony club with her friends, no riding for 6 months wasn't on the cards. The pony was sold as ready to produce for BS and we knew it would take time to build a partnership but the level of anxiety we are seeing is just making everything take so much longer than we expected.
 
little_critter said:
My girl presents as a bargy cob, but it’s taken me a while (far too long) to realise that that is how she expresses anxiety.
I need to remember not to be cross with her when she is being pushy or bargy. I need to recognise that she is feeling and expressing anxiety and I need to work on reducing that anxiety, not punishing the resulting behaviour.

Could that be what your girls ‘rude fidgeting’ was?
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I think this is exactly it, she is so very anxious, you can see it in the shape of her eye.

What things were you able to do to the reduce the anxiety? Other than letting her have her little field mate there for emotional support, which only partly works, and having her on a calmer we have not found any ways which seem to help her stress less for any more than a few minutes when the simplest of things will set her off again - a horse calling in the field, a car driving on to the yard, someone talking in another stable. She does seem very affected by noise so we are going to try a set of sound reducing ears the when riding later today.
 
I would stop over-thinking her history and just deal with the horse in front of you. Clean x-rays and a relatively transparent vet history is a major plus, you know you're not dealing with anything terrible that hasn't been disclosed. Scoping for ulcers would probably not be a bad idea to cross it off the list, especially if she is the stressy type.

She sounds green, unbalanced and badly started. I would slow it right down and get all the basics in place until she is confident on the flat doing what her rider asks.

She sounds like the sort that could be a completely different pony in 12 months, if you and your daughter are prepared to wait for her and put the time in. I had one that arrived that was an absolute lunatic for the first 6 months - couldn't tie her up or stable her without her spinning and rearing, every ride felt like a death-wish, she was just a huge ball of anxiety - she was NOT like that at the dealers I bought her from, but she is the sort that doesn't handle change very well. Likewise she was actually very good to handle, tack-up etc. but then would suddenly explode - I think she is an 'internal stresser" and had almost become a machine where she knew what was expected of her and would try her best until it all got too much. It took her probably a good year to settle and learn to trust me, she is now a completely different horse and a pleasure to deal with. She can be a bit quirky with things like other horses leaving the warmup at competitions, but I've learned to work around her and she is a super talented little horse.

I also have a (now retired) Welsh x who never really got over some of his "dramatic welsh behaviour" - the things like box-walking and being spooky and nappy are just who he is unfortunately. He did manage to be quite successful at being a 'normal' horse for many years when he was in work, again - I just found ways to work around his nuances and turned a blind eye to a lot of his dramatics.
 
lrw0250 said:
The riding is trickier. When you have a 12 year old who wants to be out competing like she was on her old pony and doing pony club with her friends, no riding for 6 months wasn't on the cards. The pony was sold as ready to produce for BS and we knew it would take time to build a partnership but the level of anxiety we are seeing is just making everything take so much longer than we expected.
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Does she have anything else to ride, or is this her only chance to ride? If it’s a pony to run alongside another then you’ve got time, but losing six months to a year to fixing this one if it is her only ride, is a lot of time in a child’s life.
 
lrw0250 said:
I think this is exactly it, she is so very anxious, you can see it in the shape of her eye.

What things were you able to do to the reduce the anxiety? Other than letting her have her little field mate there for emotional support, which only partly works, and having her on a calmer we have not found any ways which seem to help her stress less for any more than a few minutes when the simplest of things will set her off again - a horse calling in the field, a car driving on to the yard, someone talking in another stable. She does seem very affected by noise so we are going to try a set of sound reducing ears the when riding later today.
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My girl is retired now so I rarely “need” to do anything with her.
The most important step is recognising the behaviour as anxiety, not naughtiness. If she starts showing signs of anxiety then you need to back off whatever you’re doing that’s causing it.
In your shoes I would slow everything right down and take very small steps with your pony.
You need to demonstrate to your pony that you are trustworthy, that’s not something that you can rush.
Do small things together that don’t raise her anxiety. Watch her carefully for small signs that you are approaching her comfort threshold.
Try to end the activity before she reaches that threshold.
 
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