Help me please....... jumping vid at last!!

[Quartz]

My horse has always been a bit over exicted / bolshy whatever you want to call it when jumping. I have struggled over the past year especially during the winter when it was near on impossible for me.

I have a new lease of confidence and really really want to progress and am just getting so frustrated now. The other week the jumping lesson went really well, albeit they were just little cube jumps, but he was calm and listeined and didn't charge off.

Today was a different story, from the beginning he was charging off after every jump. I just don't know why he does it, towards the end yes, maybe because I start pulling on his mouth too much in anticipation of the reception and the charging off. I want to get this nailed so please please advice would be great.

My instructor wants me to stop more in a straight line so circling him after is a no no, which doesn't help.

Excuse the video with the screaming and swearing, we had been at it for 40 minutes and I was looseing the will to live!!! And these are the best ones of us, the rest we were off around the arena!!!

http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/quartz85/jumping today/

 

[PaddyMonty]

Had a look at the vids and yep, you got a problem.
First thing that struck me is horse is running away from the conact he gets over the fence.
Second thing that struck me was that due to horse running away after fence you are locking hands down on withers just before take-off. This is very noticable in first vid as you approach the second jump.
So basically the horse is running away as a result of your actions to limit its ability to run away. This is not an uncommon problem but can be difficult to break as its a vicious circle. Unfortuneately the only person that can start to break it is you as horse is simply reacting.
How to go about this.

Have a placing pole 2 strides from every fence. This is your relase point where you have to give away the contact. Sure horse may rush the last two strides initially but stick with it. Horse has to learn to trust it wont get cuaght in the mouth over fences and this will take time. As you release the contact lighten your seat and go with the horse. Do not ride defensively just in case.

Place a series of poles one canter stride apart on the landing side of fence starting one clear stride after the jump. These will restrict the horses ability to run off but you must NOT take the contact back until after the last pole.

Horse has to learn to trust before it will settle which it will but only if you dont confirm its fear by taking or holding contact at the wrong time.

Once the horse has settled (could take some time) you can start to leave the release later and take contact back earlier.

 

[huntley]

That would drive me mad! Firstly, I would do alot more flatwork so he is listening to you more.
Secondly, I would see if a different bit and a standing martingale would give you more control. Cannot see from the video what you are riding him in.
I would do lots of trotting pole work so it becomes boring! Also try grid work - there will be alot more for the horse to look at and it may help stop him rushing after the fences. Also do work in the school trotting in circles round the jumps and not let him jump until he is completely chilled out around the jumps. I think he is just being very naughty and thinks it is funny. Good luck!

 

[PaddyMonty]

Secondly, I would see if a different bit and a standing martingale would give you more control.

Sorry but I think a stronger bit will make the problem a lot worse.

 

[Lady La La]

That would drive me mad! Firstly, I would do alot more flatwork so he is listening to you more.
Secondly, I would see if a different bit and a standing martingale would give you more control. Cannot see from the video what you are riding him in.
I would do lots of trotting pole work so it becomes boring! Also try grid work - there will be alot more for the horse to look at and it may help stop him rushing after the fences. Also do work in the school trotting in circles round the jumps and not let him jump until he is completely chilled out around the jumps. I think he is just being very naughty and thinks it is funny. Good luck!

Sorry, I'll probably get shot down for this, but I dont think sticking a harsher bit in its gob, and over tacking it is going to help. Its clearly a schooling issue and the OP has received some great advice from Juno above ^^
I also dont think either of them are ready for grid work just yet.. neither do I think the horse is 'just being naughty.'
I cant stand the "pony plays up over fences.. pony needs a stronger bit" attitude. No, pony just needs reschooling.

 

[TicTac]

get your instructor to point out when you are on the wrong diaganel as well!!!!

 

[AmyMay]

Can't see what your instructor is hoping to achieve, rather than wind your little horse up even more.

Do you ever do grid work?

Sit on your bumb, and soften your hands.

Don't scream and shout (how will that improve anything?)

Don't put a stronger bit in.

And what a cracking little horse!!!!!

 

[LegOn]

Lovely little horse by the way! I think the advise about the places poles and contact is fantastic! I also think grid work would help when you give him the contact over the fences & let him learn to figure it out himself and that he isnt going to be caught in the mouth.

Lots and lots more flatwork using poles on the ground aswell, especially canter poles, and raised trotting poles to get his confidence up Good luck!

 

[Damnation]

Trotting poles
Love trotting poles for horses who rush.
Trot poles before the jump, soften your hands. Keeps him in a good rhythm before the jump and stops you from locking your hands.
Grid work is always good too! I used to be made to do gridwork with no reins, so I wasn't interfering with the horse's mouth. They could also "get on with" their job and you knew they couldn't go anywhere!
Its just a case of breaking the habit

 

[rachelandholly]

I (personally) wouldn't bit up and defo wouldn't put a standing martingale on!

Have you tried jumping and stopping?? As in... the approach looks quite under control?! I was taught on a horse who went very much like yours does... We did an exercise where I did the jump, halted as soon as possible then turned round and went the other way and did the same until she was anticipating the halt and I had to ride her forward away from the fence.

And I wouldn't be overly concerned about having your hands down over fences that size... shouldn't really make too much difference until you're at a fence requiring more effort from your horse.

 

[kerilli]

is it you shouting or your instructor?! either way, NOT HELPFUL. if she was my instructor she'd be out. just winding the poor horse up more and not saying anything remotely useful imho.
how much has this horse done before? can he jump a nice round with an experienced rider with good hands? if so, then you need to soften your hands, definitely, as Juno says, and circle after the fence to get the canter back. every time. why doesn't your instructor want you to circle? it looks as though the horse is running from the contact over/after the jump. the first clip, you catch him in the mouth and he runs from it. the fact that he then runs out twice at a teensy jump shows me that he's not enjoying it at all, is trying to avoid being caught in the mouth again imho.
i think you need your stirrups at least 2 holes shorter and to work on your seat (work in two point seat, good recent thread on that on here) so that you can go WITH him when he jumps. do a full crest release for a while to give him his confidence back, don't sock him in the chops on landing.
a stronger bit is the last thing he needs imho, let alone a standing martingale.
if he's really green (hard to tell) then i'd be approaching these tiny fences in WALK but being sure to try to touch his ears (v exaggerated crest release) the moment he takes off so that you don't touch his mouth. no horse on earth can run out in walk...
i'd work him on a circle over the fence, not with a long straight approach, too. the best clip (3rd one) is the one with the shortest approach to the fence.
i'd be wary of gridwork at this stage because if he hooks off in fright after the first part then you'll be in a right mess...
most of all, GIVE with your hands when he takes off, and don't collect him up again till he lands. then, don't shriek, sit up and ride him on a circle until you get the canter you want again.

 

[Quartz]

Had a look at the vids and yep, you got a problem.
First thing that struck me is horse is running away from the conact he gets over the fence.
Second thing that struck me was that due to horse running away after fence you are locking hands down on withers just before take-off. This is very noticable in first vid as you approach the second jump.
So basically the horse is running away as a result of your actions to limit its ability to run away. This is not an uncommon problem but can be difficult to break as its a vicious circle. Unfortuneately the only person that can start to break it is you as horse is simply reacting.
How to go about this.

Have a placing pole 2 strides from every fence. This is your relase point where you have to give away the contact. Sure horse may rush the last two strides initially but stick with it. Horse has to learn to trust it wont get cuaght in the mouth over fences and this will take time. As you release the contact lighten your seat and go with the horse. Do not ride defensively just in case.

Place a series of poles one canter stride apart on the landing side of fence starting one clear stride after the jump. These will restrict the horses ability to run off but you must NOT take the contact back until after the last pole.

Horse has to learn to trust before it will settle which it will but only if you dont confirm its fear by taking or holding contact at the wrong time.

Once the horse has settled (could take some time) you can start to leave the release later and take contact back earlier.

Thank you, I like your advice it makes good sense. I have done exercises with poles on the floor before and after the jump and he was really good with that. Plus I didn't tense thinking about pulling him up so consequently was soft and flowed with him. Private lessons work much better, and have always gone well, as soon as theres another horse he is more like this. Its such a shame as I really want to do it well for him, but when he pulls rushes it does start a circle of me pulling him and him pulling back and I anticipate it to soon and sock him in the mouth. One of the many probs is instructor wants to keep me in a group so we can't concentrate on my horses needs and I don't think it works.

 

[Quartz]

Sorry but I think a stronger bit will make the problem a lot worse.

My instructor has told me not to bit him up as he will make him stronger in the long run.

 

[Quartz]

Can't see what your instructor is hoping to achieve, rather than wind your little horse up even more.

Do you ever do grid work?

Sit on your bumb, and soften your hands.

Don't scream and shout (how will that improve anything?)

Don't put a stronger bit in.

And what a cracking little horse!!!!!

No we don't do much grid work. Sorry about the screaming, was at the end of my tether by then and didn't seem to be getting much constructive critism. She kept saying he was just playing and testing me. Well hes been playing for the past year, and I've spent most the time on the floor!!! Today she said we had improved as I actually managed to stay whilst being rodeoed across the arena at one point.

He is a cracking horse, just needs a better rider!!

 

[Quartz]

I (personally) wouldn't bit up and defo wouldn't put a standing martingale on!

Have you tried jumping and stopping?? As in... the approach looks quite under control?! I was taught on a horse who went very much like yours does... We did an exercise where I did the jump, halted as soon as possible then turned round and went the other way and did the same until she was anticipating the halt and I had to ride her forward away from the fence.

And I wouldn't be overly concerned about having your hands down over fences that size... shouldn't really make too much difference until you're at a fence requiring more effort from your horse.

Yes have tried jumping and stopping. We just don't manage it very well!!!!

He is ok going up to the jump, but about 1-2 strides before I feel him tense, then I tense and then off we go!!! Said to my instructor today I was dissapointed as I had wanted to jump him with softer hands rather than holding him back and then give a long rein at the other side, but it just didn't work out like that.

 

[Quartz]

is it you shouting or your instructor?! either way, NOT HELPFUL. if she was my instructor she'd be out. just winding the poor horse up more and not saying anything remotely useful imho.
how much has this horse done before? can he jump a nice round with an experienced rider with good hands? if so, then you need to soften your hands, definitely, as Juno says, and circle after the fence to get the canter back. every time. why doesn't your instructor want you to circle? it looks as though the horse is running from the contact over/after the jump. the first clip, you catch him in the mouth and he runs from it. the fact that he then runs out twice at a teensy jump shows me that he's not enjoying it at all, is trying to avoid being caught in the mouth again imho.
i think you need your stirrups at least 2 holes shorter and to work on your seat (work in two point seat, good recent thread on that on here) so that you can go WITH him when he jumps. do a full crest release for a while to give him his confidence back, don't sock him in the chops on landing.
a stronger bit is the last thing he needs imho, let alone a standing martingale.
if he's really green (hard to tell) then i'd be approaching these tiny fences in WALK but being sure to try to touch his ears (v exaggerated crest release) the moment he takes off so that you don't touch his mouth. no horse on earth can run out in walk...
i'd work him on a circle over the fence, not with a long straight approach, too. the best clip (3rd one) is the one with the shortest approach to the fence.
i'd be wary of gridwork at this stage because if he hooks off in fright after the first part then you'll be in a right mess...
most of all, GIVE with your hands when he takes off, and don't collect him up again till he lands. then, don't shriek, sit up and ride him on a circle until you get the canter you want again.

The first clip is actually at the end of the lesson, and I know I really socked him in his mouth on that one. Was just so worn out by then of 40 minutes of fun and games.

He was competed at 4 years of age, Club 1 in France so with a girl of Galop 7 (I am Galop 3) massive difference!!! He was doing cross and show jumping. Not sure how well, as I know she had a lot of work to get him there and then he was retired at 5!!!! So not to sure how it all went, but not great in my opinion. He is only 7 now, and a very sensitive thing. I brought him from a dealer who gave me no history, found it all out over the internet. However, I would never swap him as with all my faults he's actually taught me a lot.

 

[millreef]

I love how you're fluent in French but swear in English.... then apologise!!! I do that all the time. Sorry, just thought I'd point that out as Juno gave excellent advice!! SEE

 

[Quartz]

I love how you're fluent in French but swear in English.... then apologise!!! I do that all the time. Sorry, just thought I'd point that out as Juno gave excellent advice!! SEE

It just naturally comes out in English, still very embarrassed by all my swearing on that video, wished I'd muted it now!!!

 

[BSJAlove]

have you done all the routine checks. looks pain related to me

 

[Quartz]

have you done all the routine checks. looks pain related to me

Yep, done that, back, teeth etc . I expressed those concerns again today, but my instructor knows all the checks already done so she doesn't think so. What else could it be? My other train of thought was Navicular, as he stopped competing at 5 due to going lame cross country several times. To me that would explain pain on reception after a jump, but I'm no expert so could be wrong.

He is also very sensitive in the mouth, so completely agree with what others have said he is running from the contact, I can feel that. Its learning to be softer as well, but am slightly worried it could be something else as well.

 

[BSJAlove]

did you find the reason why he went lame xc?

 

[Quartz]

did you find the reason why he went lame xc?

No, I never had tests for navicular done as he never went lame with me and didn't find out about suspected navicular for a number of months. But I've never jumped him on hard ground and we only do obstacles every two weeks. Do you think I shoudl get tests done?

 

[jenki13]

No, I never had tests for navicular done as he never went lame with me and didn't find out about suspected navicular for a number of months. But I've never jumped him on hard ground and we only do obstacles every two weeks. Do you think I shoudl get tests done?

If it was suspected it might be worth checking out & putting your mind at rest one way or the other.

Then if found that its not the case, as it may well have been that he went lame for various reasons. Then Juno's advice would seem the best. I also agree that it seems like you are holding your hands a little tense back at the withers (I assume as you worry about him tanking after). Although you may not be jabbing him in the mouth he might feel restricted & therefore be resisting the contact... Try & soften over the jump then concentrate on sitting up and bringing him back to a halt. If you allow him a freer movement over the jump he may be more responsive to the halt command after the jump.

Also if you feel yourself getting round up try & come back to walk count to 10 take a deep breath & try again good luck with your training.

 

[huntley]

I want to defend what I said about trying another bit! It is very difficult to soften with your hands when you are expecting the horse to run off with you on landing. As I also said, I think alot more flat work and simple training exercises will help. Just endlessly jumping one fence wil not solve the problem. Really not sure about the instructor - does she actually suggest anything to help? Could you try someone else? All the exercises that have been suggested on here will help. Is he sound on a hard surface? If not, then you should get the vet. I suspect it is a habit he has got in to and you really need to go back to basics. I really believe good grid work would help - only needs to be a combination of cross poles and poles on the ground to start with - having more to think about can really help both of you.

 

[jenki13]

I want to defend what I said about trying another bit! It is very difficult to soften with your hands when you are expecting the horse to run off with you on landing. As I also said, I think alot more flat work and simple training exercises will help. Just endlessly jumping one fence wil not solve the problem. Really not sure about the instructor - does she actually suggest anything to help? Could you try someone else? All the exercises that have been suggested on here will help. Is he sound on a hard surface? If not, then you should get the vet. I suspect it is a habit he has got in to and you really need to go back to basics. I really believe good grid work would help - only needs to be a combination of cross poles and poles on the ground to start with - having more to think about can really help both of you.

I think gridwork would be good as the OP could practise softening over the jump as he's not (well unlikely) going to tank with another fence straight after. I don't agree with agree with immediately trying a stronger bit... after trying some other methods & flatwork training then possibly trying a different bit.
I think a lot of transition exercises would be good idea so that he is immediately responsive to the aids.

 

[BSJAlove]

No, I never had tests for navicular done as he never went lame with me and didn't find out about suspected navicular for a number of months. But I've never jumped him on hard ground and we only do obstacles every two weeks. Do you think I shoudl get tests done?

yes. you know there could be a potential problem there. im sure theres no rush, then if it turns out it is a behavior problem, your minds at rest as you know your not hurting him and you can sort out the issues at hand.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I had a horse that's very similar so hopefully I can be of some use.
I'm pretty much fluent in French so can understand the instructor and she doesn't seem too bad in what she says - I'm more concerned at what she's doing with you. Kerilli is right in that the best jump was when you had a shorter approach to the fence. It gives the horse less time to tense up and think about running off. Your instructor really should be capitalising on this and doing something about your hands, which need to be much softer. Believe me, I know how much you want to hold on and stop him running off but you need to let him sort himself out, particularly just before and over the fence. After the fence, get your bum really deep into the saddle and slow him down with your seat and legs, not your hands which just make him upset. An excercise I found very helpful is to have one fence of a fairly decent height, jump it, immediately turn a tight circle to jump it again. Repeat a few times. This can take the excitement out of jumping and forces them to sit back on their hocks, use themselves and get into a rhythm However, I don't think your horse is balanced enough yet. Definitely one to consider for the future (as long as he doesn't have navicular). Grid work is definitely the way forward with this one as he needs to learn to sort himself out. I'm another who used to do gridwork with no reins and my mare actually slowed herself down, got into a nice rhythm and jumped them beautifully. It was a real wake up moment where I knew I had to sort my hands out. For now, I would try walking into the fences until a couple of strides out and making sure you're very soft in your hands. You need to be able to control his speed with your seat so in your flatwork sessions, work on doing everything without hands. My instructor makes me warm up holding the reins on the buckle end and doing everything with my seat and legs. It's not easy, but it's very useful.

You have a lovely horse but I would consider a change in instructor. There are so many excercises you could do to help your rhythm, your hands etc but you just seem to be going over fences with far too much space for him to run away. Either talk to her and get some change or find a new, more proactive instructor.

 

[joosie]

Have nothing to add to the excellent advice here (in fact I shall be following some of it myself!!) but whereabouts in France are you Quartz? I work for a pro showjumper in Normandy who is a fab teacher, produces youngsters as well and has all sorts of tips for horses like yours. If you're anywhere near Normandy she may be able to recommend a good instructor to go to or even teach you herself

 

[Quartz]

I think there has been some really interesting and very good advice given to me so thank you.

I just want to add that I have been on here about him tanking off after fences before but with no video backup. It was suggested to go back to basics with him, I don't want people to think I didn't listein. I have just been doing poles on the ground with him (as in fact he would do that darting off with these as well). With lots of work he calmed down over a few weeks and we went onto a few smaller than yesterday jumps. Where I was confident went with him and it was fine. I then put a thread up saying how happy I was and couldn't wait to jump him again.

However, yesterday the first 2 jumps I did I was soft and forward with my hands and he did the same. I asked if I was doing something wrong with my hands and she said no today its not you its him, hes really testing you. Then (as you can see in the videos). I did start riding defensively and jabbing him back in anticipation on the reception.

Its a lot to work on, and really hope we get there as I just want to do a normal set of jumps with him and enjoy it. On the plus side I did manage to stay on which is unusual for me when he does all that!!!

 

[flying solo]

That would drive me mad! Firstly, I would do alot more flatwork so he is listening to you more.
Secondly, I would see if a different bit and a standing martingale would give you more control. Cannot see from the video what you are riding him in.
I would do lots of trotting pole work so it becomes boring! Also try grid work - there will be alot more for the horse to look at and it may help stop him rushing after the fences. Also do work in the school trotting in circles round the jumps and not let him jump until he is completely chilled out around the jumps. I think he is just being very naughty and thinks it is funny. Good luck!

JESUS! standing martingale and let us guess a pelham?