Help Me With Half Pass?

coreteam1

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My horse is going well with shoulder in, traver and leg yielding but we seem to struggle with the half pass. Am I correct to say that if I start by coming down the long side of the arena with traver, I can then (in theory!) change to half pass?

We seem to find this movement difficult and I'm getting more and more convinced it's my co-ordination that's just hindering the horse! I ask him for half pass from traver and this is where it all goes pear shaped. I'm asking for flexion and for a lateral sideways movement, however he seems to just want to almost turn in the direction I flex him?

We warm up doing flexion from left to right on both reins, going forward down a long side which he manages very well. He is quite a flexible horse. He moves off my leg in leg yield too and is good at traver and shoulder in?

I don't think he's behind the leg and would it really mater if he were as we can't even seem to be able to try a half pass in walk? Or perhaps I shouldn't even try walk, is it easier from a trot??

It's hard to discribe in a post but perhaps someone out there can help? Am I asking for to much flexion and too much sideways movement perhaps??
 

kerilli

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i was taught to ask for it from shoulder-in, because that is the position you want the horse to be in for half-pass (forehand very slightly leading, not quarters leading as in travers).
so, i do a 10m circle as I start the long side, then shoulder-in, and when that's really nice I ask for sideways across the school. the moment it gets wobbly, push forward straight, shoulder-in again for a few strides, then across again if you still have room. This is better than trying to rescue a going-wrong half-pass imho.
i'm sure you'll get much more detailed and exact replies, but that's a simple start i hope!
 

AutumnRose

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I am teaching B to half pass at the moment - i say that very loosely as i've only started this week in one session!

However, i was taught to do so as K describes above, from shoulder in and to go for very little and if it gets wobbly push straight forwards. A bit like teaching shoulder in i guess :)
 

coreteam1

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i was taught to ask for it from shoulder-in,QUOTE]

Now Autumnrose and Kerilli this is what happened to me:

I was looking through Youtube regarding the half pass about 3/4 months ago and saw a few German trainers teaching Half Pass from Shoulder in. So when I had my next lesson with my dressage trainer I mentioned it. He said no, you teach him from Travers??? I obviously didn't question him (him knowing far more than me)!!

I totally agree with the shoulder in leading to Half Pass. In my lesson we did the 10 metre circle to Travers to Half Pass?

I am gonna try the shoulder in to half pass this afternoon!!
 

Caledonia

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I was taught half-pass as leaving the long side as if to go across the diagonal thereby getting correct bend with the forehand leading, then put the horse into travers as you go forward down the diagonal, and straighten up at the centre line.

It seems to work for me, I find it easy to use in all three paces, and the horses seem to pick it up really easily.

I've never tried it the other way, so can't compare!
 

coreteam1

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[QUOTE then put the horse into travers as you go forward down the diagonal, and straighten up at the centre line.

It seems to work for me, I find it easy to use in all three paces, and the horses seem to pick it up really easily.

I've never tried it the other way, so can't compare![/QUOTE]

Thanks I will give this a go too this afternoon!
 

MissDeMeena

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Sometimes horses like to hug the outside of the school... have you tried it from going down the centre line, and then half-pass back to the outside of the school.. just a small thing, but might help... you'd be coming off half a 10m circle too then, ie helping you to set up.
 

TheMule

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I like to teach half pass out of a 1/2 walk pirouette- come in off the track by about 5m, do a 1/2 walk pirra and just maintain all that you've got but step it across rather than around. It seems to work very well
 

soloequestrian

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If you read Paul Belasik's book (can't remember which one, but they are all good!), he very clearly describes why it's better to teach half-pass from travers - it's to do with in travers the outside leg is the 'pushing' leg, and that's the same in half-pass, whereas in shoulder-in the inside leg is the 'pushing' leg so if you ask for half-pass out of shoulder in, the horse has to shift it's weight about more. Not that I'm an expert, but if you are just trying to get the horse to understand the idea, I would ride half-pass with the quarters leading to begin with, and then worry about the shoulders leading once they understand the gist of the movement. Your first post sounds almost as if you are trying too hard and getting in a fankle because of that.
 

coreteam1

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Phew it's going to be a busy afternoon, poor horse! lol

I will put all the suggestions into our training later on and see which works best. I can see where the half pass from Traver is coming from, if the outside leg needs to be the 'pushing leg' as it is for Half Pass.

Will give it a go from the centre line too.

Thanks for all the help
 

soloequestrian

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Just been thinking about this more.... and performing lateral movements around the kitchen.... in shoulder in, the inside hind has to step across the outside hind. In travers, the outside hind has to step across (in front of) the inside hind, which is the same as in half pass. If you go from shoulder in to half pass, the horse has to change this crossing over pattern, so if it doesn't know the movement it will be difficult.

Doing it on my own feet was very enlightening!
 

coss

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i was taught (on a horse that knows half pass inside out) to do a half 10m circle and maintain the bend which would be like a temporary shoulder in then move the haunches over so your shoulders ask for shoulder in but you legs/seat say travers...
 

vicky86

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Ditto coss. I have alway been taught to ride half a 10m circle then on returning to the track ask for travers in the direction you are going. Circle helps to set up the correct position of the shoulders.
 

JLav

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The main problem with starting a travers then trying to go into half pass on the diagonal is that the because the quarters are already displaced to the inside of the track the forehand has to take much bigger sideways steps to catch up and then pass the quarters. This makes it extremely hard for a horse thats new to this movement to be able to physically maintain the flow and impulsion as it requires alot of suppleness to be able to achieve and the shoulders just seem to get stuck on the track.

If the horse is happy with the travers then the half pass will not be a problem (it's basically a development of travers performed accross the diagonal line anyway) so my sugestion would be to come straight onto the diagonal line (for example say F to G in a 40m arena or F to X in a 60m one) then once on the line ask the horse for the travers.

IME it is much more common for trainers and riders to use a shoulder-in to set up a half pass as it puts the horse in the right position with the shoulders leading but it doesn't always work for some horses and/or riders so you need to be flexible with how you approach the training of the movement.
 

Caledonia

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The main problem with starting a travers then trying to go into half pass on the diagonal is that the because the quarters are already displaced to the inside of the track the forehand has to take much bigger sideways steps to catch up and then pass the quarters. This makes it extremely hard for a horse thats new to this movement to be able to physically maintain the flow and impulsion as it requires alot of suppleness to be able to achieve and the shoulders just seem to get stuck on the track.

.

Sorry, probably wasn't clear enough, you don't start travers until you have gone onto the diagonal, so the shoulders are already in front.

Basically, you turn to go across the diagonal, hold the bend and then ask for travers, not start the diagonal from travers.
 

kerilli

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The main problem with starting a travers then trying to go into half pass on the diagonal is that the because the quarters are already displaced to the inside of the track the forehand has to take much bigger sideways steps to catch up and then pass the quarters. This makes it extremely hard for a horse thats new to this movement to be able to physically maintain the flow and impulsion as it requires alot of suppleness to be able to achieve and the shoulders just seem to get stuck on the track.

If the horse is happy with the travers then the half pass will not be a problem (it's basically a development of travers performed accross the diagonal line anyway) so my sugestion would be to come straight onto the diagonal line (for example say F to G in a 40m arena or F to X in a 60m one) then once on the line ask the horse for the travers.

IME it is much more common for trainers and riders to use a shoulder-in to set up a half pass as it puts the horse in the right position with the shoulders leading but it doesn't always work for some horses and/or riders so you need to be flexible with how you approach the training of the movement.

Thanks for explaining this, I was trying to work out why it works for me to start from shoulder-in, and why I was taught it to start it that way, and have been trying it out on my own two feet and getting very confused!
 

CrazyMare

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First few sessions with mine we went from travers to half pass, then now would go from shoulder in to half pass.

I think starting from travers, helps you get control of the quaters, but is not the most correct way of going about it.

I would suggest having a go from shoulder in but starting from the 3/4 line to CL or 1/4 line rather than off the track as some do tend to 'get stuck'.
 

Gamebird

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Something I was thinking about and trying yesterday. Our walk pirouettes and travers are better than our shoulder-in so I might try Jlav/TheMule's methods next time.

Very interesting discussion (and for once I don't have my tongue in cheek! ;)).
 

Halfstep

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For me, I find horses get the "knack" of half pass when it is developed out of travers on the diagonal, BUT, as JLav rightly says, you must not start the travers until you get the horse properly positioned onto the diagonal line. So, teach the horse the concept of travers on the wall by riding a 10m circle, holding the bend at the end of the circle and asking the horse to move up the long side with the outside leg behind the girth, outside hand half halting to keep the shoulders in front, inside hand maintaining the bend, inside leg on the girth asking for the forwards momentum. Once the horse gets this and understands the aids, come onto a diagonal line across the school, ride straight, then *imagine* that there is an arena wall leading to the other side of the school, and ride travers along that. Look to where you are going and point your inside knee towards the marker you are aiming at. So long as you have control of the outside shoulder to keep it in front, you will have half pass! don't try to ride it all the way across at first, just a few steps, then straight on the diagonal, then a few steps again.

Once the horse gets this, you can ride it as you would in a test, turning up the centre line and half pass to a marker. When you do this, you must ride shoulder in positioning first, to get the shoulders leading, then put the outside leg back and imagine you are on your diagonal line with the invisible wall next to you.
 

coreteam1

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Well now for the update...

It was awful! lol

I warmed up the beast and did some shoulder in's, etc etc. My head by then was fuzzy trying to remember what everyone had said on here.

Well I've now decided we are no way good enough at Travers to be even considering trying to do half ass (that's what were were doing, a good Half Ass!)

I think I need to get more inside flexion when doing the actual Travers movement, Otto seemed to move his quarters over well and easily enough but seemed to struggle when I asked for the inside flexion (see diagram!)


travers by

I tended to have his head and neck too straight with not enough inside bend and feel we need to master this before going on to the half Pass, what do you think??
Does a good Half Pass come from being able to do a good Travers movement?
I felt sorry for the poor horse and my hands lost all co-ordination and my brain started to fry :) Otto now runs from me when I tell him it's practice Travers time!!
Learn to walk before I can run me thinks??

I do agree with the one's who advised me who advised me to start from a diagonal, that would seem more logical. Will try this but only once Travers mastered!

So next question.. How to teach him Travers, correctly? lol lol lol :)
 

coreteam1

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For me, I find horses get the "knack" of half pass when it is developed out of travers on the diagonal, BUT, as JLav rightly says, you must not start the travers until you get the horse properly positioned onto the diagonal line. So, teach the horse the concept of travers on the wall by riding a 10m circle, holding the bend at the end of the circle and asking the horse to move up the long side with the outside leg behind the girth, outside hand half halting to keep the shoulders in front, inside hand maintaining the bend, inside leg on the girth asking for the forwards momentum.
Once the horse gets this, you can ride it as you would in a test, turning up the centre line .



Yes I definitely think this is the way to go. I found it difficult to keep him going forward. Everytime I asked for an inside bend he kind of wanted to stop, at this point I think he had steam coming out of both ears! Definitely going back to teaching a good movement in Travers before trying the Half Pass again.

Thank you for the accurate description of the aids to use, my youngest boy said to me:

''Mummy can I have a drink''
I said '' Wait a minute mummy is busy''
He said ''but you are just staring at the computer''
I said '' no, mummy is doing a half pass in her head on Otto''
He just looked at me and ran off!! :)
 

coss

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Well now for the update...

It was awful! lol

I warmed up the beast and did some shoulder in's, etc etc. My head by then was fuzzy trying to remember what everyone had said on here.

Well I've now decided we are no way good enough at Travers to be even considering trying to do half ass (that's what were were doing, a good Half Ass!)

I think I need to get more inside flexion when doing the actual Travers movement, Otto seemed to move his quarters over well and easily enough but seemed to struggle when I asked for the inside flexion (see diagram!)


travers by

I tended to have his head and neck too straight with not enough inside bend and feel we need to master this before going on to the half Pass, what do you think??
Does a good Half Pass come from being able to do a good Travers movement?
I felt sorry for the poor horse and my hands lost all co-ordination and my brain started to fry :) Otto now runs from me when I tell him it's practice Travers time!!
Learn to walk before I can run me thinks??

I do agree with the one's who advised me who advised me to start from a diagonal, that would seem more logical. Will try this but only once Travers mastered!

So next question.. How to teach him Travers, correctly? lol lol lol :)


definitely get the travers sorted first - as others have said, the half pass is basically travers, its just not along a wall :p

my instructor got me going back to basics with flexion - just flex head a tad in/out on a circle, then ask shoulder in and out as a progression... then ask travers and renvers on the circle -all from the initial "flex head and then..."
so that there is relaxation of the jaw/head/neck/poll before asking for the more complicated move. on a circle is trickier than a straight line but i think it helps coordination.
 

Tempi

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I generally teach to half pass off a 1/2 10m circle onto the centre line, if you go across the diagonal first of all the angle can be too steep and the horse can get 'stuck'. I tend to ride 3 strides half pass 3 strides forwards in medium/extended trot, back to 3 strides halfpass - this keeps the horse thinking forwards and sideways as more often than not you see people turn onto the centre line to half pass in a test and they slow down and loose all impulsion and get stuck in the thought of sideways movement. The movement should be sideways and flowing.
 

coreteam1

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Thanks for all your help with this one. Will be trying out Travers tomorrow and trying to concentrate getting that correct. Not got a lesson until the 16th October so I can lots of practice in!
 
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