Help me with spookiness, it's making me want to give up

[soloequestrian]

I'm sick fed up of spookiness! I thought we were getting better - I've been much more on it when hacking so she will keep trotting now rather than throw out an anchor but in the school I think she's using it as an evasion and it's testing my confidence badly. Today was extreme - 180 at nothing, saddle slipped and I came off. My fault for not checking the girth but I know I'll be worrying when I get on tomorrow. Any tips? She is perfectly healthy, good weight, stress-free lifestyle, tack all fits, on plenty of magnesium. She is always wary of certain points in the school but doesn't usually start the big spooks until she thinks the work is a fraction harder than she'd like to do (this is walk and trot circles type thing, nothing highbrow). I have been trying to just keep the ride going, so the spook doesn't mean less work, but she seems to be responding by making the spooks worse. It's making me miserable, she is so lovely when she's relaxed but that only seems to happen once in a blue moon.

 

[paddy555]

I'm sick fed up of spookiness! I thought we were getting better - I've been much more on it when hacking so she will keep trotting now rather than throw out an anchor but in the school I think she's using it as an evasion and it's testing my confidence badly. Today was extreme - 180 at nothing, saddle slipped and I came off. My fault for not checking the girth but I know I'll be worrying when I get on tomorrow. Any tips? She is perfectly healthy, good weight, stress-free lifestyle, tack all fits, on plenty of magnesium. She is always wary of certain points in the school but doesn't usually start the big spooks until she thinks the work is a fraction harder than she'd like to do (this is walk and trot circles type thing, nothing highbrow). I have been trying to just keep the ride going, so the spook doesn't mean less work, but she seems to be responding by making the spooks worse. It's making me miserable, she is so lovely when she's relaxed but that only seems to happen once in a blue moon.

what you are interpreting as lazy is she interpreting as speed and having to move quicker than she feels safe?
what about her eyes?

 

[Pinkvboots]

I'm sick fed up of spookiness! I thought we were getting better - I've been much more on it when hacking so she will keep trotting now rather than throw out an anchor but in the school I think she's using it as an evasion and it's testing my confidence badly. Today was extreme - 180 at nothing, saddle slipped and I came off. My fault for not checking the girth but I know I'll be worrying when I get on tomorrow. Any tips? She is perfectly healthy, good weight, stress-free lifestyle, tack all fits, on plenty of magnesium. She is always wary of certain points in the school but doesn't usually start the big spooks until she thinks the work is a fraction harder than she'd like to do (this is walk and trot circles type thing, nothing highbrow). I have been trying to just keep the ride going, so the spook doesn't mean less work, but she seems to be responding by making the spooks worse. It's making me miserable, she is so lovely when she's relaxed but that only seems to happen once in a blue moon.

Take her off the magnesium!

About a month ago I didn't realise I was double dosing Louis with it and he was exactly the same I was considering getting the vet out because I thought something was seriously wrong.

Was chatting to a friend and I suddenly realised what I had done, I stopped adding the extra and literally within 3 days he was a different horse.

I honestly wouldn't have believed it could make them so wild he was borderline dangerous, he still has the odd spook but that's just him and they are minor.

 

[JGC]

Take her off the magnesium!

About a month ago I didn't realise I was double dosing Louis with it and he was exactly the same I was considering getting the vet out because I thought something was seriously wrong.

Was chatting to a friend and I suddenly realised what I had done, I stopped adding the extra and literally within 3 days he was a different horse.

I honestly wouldn't have believed it could make them so wild he was borderline dangerous, he still has the odd spook but that's just him and they are minor.

Yup, definite start with this.

A couple of mine have lost their minds on magnesium!

After that's worn off, I'd be tempted to try chasteberry or Oestress. But not until the magnesium has worn off or you won't know the difference.

I found the TRT method useful for spooking - they do a free 7 day trial that cancels automatically (please check this is still the case and don't just take my word for it ) so worth a look?

 

[Marigold4]

I don't have any helpful advice, but just wanted to offer my sympathies! I have a spooky horse who is worse in a school. I've come off him twice - once when he spooked at a pile of his own poo in his field; once when he saw something tiny and imaginary on the ground mid-canter. He is 8 now and slowly getting better. No real tips but we've kept going out, low level clinics and dressage with very low expectations. He is getting better (slowly) and can now do a whole walk and trot test without a meltdown! It has taken two years! In fact he just won one with 71% and lovely comments from the judge. I thought he would never be able to do this and have often been in despair. So keep going, keep expectations low and give it lots of patience. Experience and exposure to new things in a gentle way and with a sense of humour is what is working for us (definitely a work in progress though). I had an instructor who was all for forcing him through a spook with very strong aids but that made it worse. Sorry, probably not the magic fix you wanted.

PS I tried various calmers. None had any effect whatsoever.

 

[soloequestrian]

She's generally better on more magnesium, I have been up and down through it over the past few years.
I don't really understand the comment about speed and safety but everything we're doing is in a reasonably rhythm, she's not being pushed. We're actually trying to work on softness through her neck at the moment, so lots of turns which are not fast.
I probably should have worked her away from the spooky corner for a bit today rather than trying to work near it. Trouble is the more I do that the more the other corners seem to develop monsters too.

 

[dorsetladette]

Worth trying a non magnesium calmer in case the mag is having the opposite effect.

You say you have tried different quantities of magnesium over the years - have you had her a while? Has she always been spooky or is this something developed over time? My old lad became more spooky (he was never a very confident horse) when he started to get stiff/sore in his hocks. I didn't realise at the time, but he had arthritis changes in both hocks.

Playing devils advocate here - could she have something going on that is making her a little bit more on edge that is pushing her tolerance levels.

 

[soloequestrian]

I've had her for a long time and she's always been like this. It comes and goes to some extent but doesn't seem to follow a hormonal cycle. I've tried her on a few other calmers, the best results have been from MAH but although she's on a bigger dose at the moment it seems to have worn off. I really think it's a learned behaviour - she is getting better on hacks and touch wood I haven't had any big spins out for a while, but she has started doing these in the school... I think as she realises I'm getting less likely to stop if she does a smaller spook. It just makes schooling so unpleasant - we get a few lovely relaxed moments with a good contact, moving well and then she's back to jumping sideways and I struggle with the balance between being ready to deal with a spook and going with the flow to help her relax. AARRGGHH.

 

[soloequestrian]

The way she moves out hacking convinces me that there's nothing going on lameness wise - she is very forwards. Until she's not of course, for instance when a purple flower appears on a corner.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Someone suggested rhythm beads but I never really thought of getting any.

I find Louis is worse if his not going forward or is not doing enough to occupy his mind, once his really off the leg and has something to think about his better.

Our school is the absolute worst for distraction think tractors cyclists walkers just appearing at the far end as its a track that runs alongside.

Horses turned out every side of arena peacocks running flying laying in the school, people walking up and down with horses to turnout.

All the instructors I've had have said its the worse place they have ever been

 

[Fieldlife]

If spookiness is worse in school than hacking, I would suggest there is a reason?

She finds schooling harder?
You are more mentally or physically relaxed when hacking?
The school surface is too deep or similar and she is trying to find evasions?
She anticipates having to work harder in the school?

 

[vhf]

I'm sick fed up of spookiness! I thought we were getting better - I've been much more on it when hacking so she will keep trotting now rather than throw out an anchor but in the school I think she's using it as an evasion and it's testing my confidence badly. Today was extreme - 180 at nothing, saddle slipped and I came off. It's making me miserable, she is so lovely when she's relaxed but that only seems to happen once in a blue moon.

I'll leave the Mg or not debate, but... with one who could throw the most incredible 180 spins, I attached a flash strap to the saddle and rode with the loop in my hand. Gave me an anchor since he always went one way. Improved my confidence that I'd stay in the plate; I was actually rarely unseated but the anxiety was ruining the riding. He once did a full 360 so fast I swear I never saw behind , how I stayed on I don't know. My old girl had spooking as an artform (she'd check for traffic before spooking on the road, to everyone's amusement) and started to do it n earnest once her hocks began bothering her, but she never ever span.

 

[millitiger]

It will sound odd but if she is spooking with harder work, it sounds like she isn't truly in front of your leg.
Most people confuse forwards for in front of the leg but they are very, very different!!
Her choosing to be forwards out hacking doesn't mean she is in front of your leg.

So I'd be back to basics personally and make sure she is truly odd the aids and listening to you.
I'd be schooling with a good trainer on hand to help you work through it.

Caveat, obviously this is assuming full vet work up done etc. and she isn't spooking to get out of harder work because she finds it painful.

 

[soloequestrian]

She's definitely not in front of my leg! 'Submission' in the nicest possible sense for riding is just not there at the moment - she pays attention to just about everything other than me. I have a good trainer but she's only here once a week. She has told me off for a loose girth, the fall is totally my fault. The horse is clicker trained and I've used R+ throughout her training but at the moment it's tricky for me to see where to go next.

 

[dorsetladette]

@soloequestrian if you walk her in hand or lunge her in the spooky corners of the school what happens?

 

[humblepie]

As with many horses mine had a spooky corner of the school possibly because it is spooky as things suddenly appear around the corner which probably led me to avoiding that corner a bit. Instructor gets on him and without any force he just nicely goes into that corner, happily counter cantering round it, leg yielding to it etc, so it is that he isn't truly in front of the leg with me. I also like the idea of walking in hand or long reining if you are safe and able to do so.

 

[paddy555]

I don't really understand the comment about speed and safety but everything we're doing is in a reasonably rhythm, she's not being pushed.

if a horse has an eye problem then it's vision will be poor at times. Not always poor, but at times. I am thinking such as ERU.
This gives rise to spookiness as the horse cannot focus accurately. It takes time so basically at a stand still/slow walk it will focus better ie more quickly and be less spooky than moving faster. If it cannot focus quickly enough they it may well spook out of fear.
I have no idea if your horse has an eye problem (it is not always very obvious) but it is one cause of spookiness. Sometimes when the eye(s) are OK the horse is fine and when focus is poor the horse may well spook

 

[sbloom]

The way she moves out hacking convinces me that there's nothing going on lameness wise - she is very forwards. Until she's not of course, for instance when a purple flower appears on a corner.

Hacking promotes more endorphins, no surface or circles to contend with, so most horses are more forwards on hacks and it absolutely can't rule out lameness in itself. How does her musculature and posture look? Horses generally are spooky when they feel unsafe, hence the comments, but it doesn't mean it's easy to find out why they're feeling unsafe.

 

[soloequestrian]

The spooky corner (the worst one) is almost always a little bit spooky. Lunging she will avoid it, sometimes casually, sometimes with enthusiasm. If I walk her so I'm on the outside she is fine. If there is a horse stood at that side of the school, outside it, she is fine. She definitely finds it scary but sometimes I think that fear is exaggerated.

 

[JackFrost]

One of mine tends to be quite tense and not focused on me. When she's like this, I spend the first 5 -15 mins of a 'ride' doing in hand schooling and groundwork. I ask for side stretches, putting her head down and moving her feet around as I want, to get her to relax her jaw and neck and also make me/us her focus of attention. It seems to work for releasing tensions.
Possibly asking for more from your horse might just be making it worse - I might try dialling it all back and making relaxation your end goal, even if you don't get any faster than walk in a session.
I think some of them need to be taught how to relax. So YOU take charge of her relaxation, it doesn't just happen when she is feeling like it!

 

[soloequestrian]

She might well be feeling unsafe because of me - it's a bit of a vicious circle, she spooks, I tense, I ride past that bit of the school with more anticipation of spooks. On good days we don't do this - she can relax nicely on both reins and it just seems to be when she's in the right mood.
Our hacks involve steep hills that she bounces up.

 

[splashgirl45]

I would go back to working her in hand in the school , it’s also useful to teach them sideways movements by pushing where your leg would be if riding and therefore you would have a better reaction if you put your leg on to keep her into the corner. If she spooks what do you do? If you overreact she will get worse, sometimes with a spooky horse you are better to halt, take a few deep breaths and wait until she relaxes then move forward, that way it should calm you as well because she may be picking up on your feelings

 

[splashgirl45]

Jack Frost, I was typing my reply before your post came up, I have also owned a spooky mare we are on the same wavelength

 

[millitiger]

She's definitely not in front of my leg! 'Submission' in the nicest possible sense for riding is just not there at the moment - she pays attention to just about everything other than me. I have a good trainer but she's only here once a week. She has told me off for a loose girth, the fall is totally my fault. The horse is clicker trained and I've used R+ throughout her training but at the moment it's tricky for me to see where to go next.

So what is she like in hand? Same with focus everywhere but you? If so, wind it back to that so you can get focussed work from her on the ground.
And be aware/careful if she is clicker trained as I find it can sometimes make them a bit of a 'rush' to get the reward rather than really tuning into you and your body language.

If her groundwork is good, then when schooling I would stick to walk when your trainer isn't there.
It doesn't mean you can't work hard- it is really difficult to do halt/ walk and then transitions from free to extended to medium to collected walk as well as leg yield, tracer, shoulder in, shoulder code, walk pirouettes etc.
This will also mean you can check she is really on your aids all of the time and hopefully take some of the tension out of the ride for you, to break the negative cycle.

 

[Pinkvboots]

She might well be feeling unsafe because of me - it's a bit of a vicious circle, she spooks, I tense, I ride past that bit of the school with more anticipation of spooks. On good days we don't do this - she can relax nicely on both reins and it just seems to be when she's in the right mood.
Our hacks involve steep hills that she bounces up.

I would really try to get her in front of your leg as I mentioned above Louis is much worse when his not.

If there is a particular bit of the arena avoid it unless you know you have her full attention.

My instructor gets me on a 20 metre circle at the good end and we loads of transitions, she also gets me to keep him on a slight inside bend so it's difficult for him to look at things.

We then gradually move out onto a bigger circle once his listening and forward and settled.

I have to constantly read Louis I normally know when he will do a spook his ears go really forward and he feels like his backing off, so I will give him a tap with my leg bend him away from it and get his attention back on me.

 

[soloequestrian]

She's actually pretty good on the ground when I think about it. I taught her to stand while I walk away and then give a signal and she comes to me. We do a bit of in-hand lateral work and she's fine doing that. Weirdly she always gets cross if I try to give her a treat while mounted so when I'm riding she gets the clicks but without the carrot. If there's someone there to hand her one that works but she won't turn to me to get one.
I like the idea of the walk work.

 

[sbloom]

I hate to say this but the fact she's better in hand, and she doesn't like having to really twist to get a treat from you indicates a higher chance there's a saddle fit issue, or something else related to carrying the rider. Maybe something small is wrong that has just tipped the balance right now?

 

[LEC]

Can you disengage the hind legs under saddle? Do you ride the same patterns? Can you get simple yeilds under saddle?

I had a really spooky horse and it’s how I ended up down the whole Warwick Schiller path using his YouTube videos as the traditional tools I had didn’t work. It honestly has changed what and how I do things in training horses.

The horse ended up going novice eventing and at one point could only go 10m in our arena and no further and wouldn’t jump as so spooky.

 

[j1ffy]

There are some great tips in this thread on spookiness (particularly using the in-hand work, I've successfully done this with a previous horse).

On the lameness point - Chilli is very bold out hacking and loves powering up hills in a big medium trot or any form of canter. Sound trotted up in a straight line and on the lunge, flexions pretty good, happy jumping. However on the right rein in the school he became increasingly nappy and difficult (although still appeared 'sound') and has now been diagnosed with hock arthritis. The pressures of turning and working on a surface are very different and can show up more specific problems, hence plenty of horses who are advertised as suitable for hacking only. Hopefully this isn't the case with your mare but it might be worth checking out.

 

[soloequestrian]

I did groundwork today then mounted neck flexions - a sort of cross between clicker training and carrot stretches. She was taking the treat from me mounted no bother - I hadn't tried for years because she told me clearly when she was younger that it just made her cross! All very relaxed.