Help. Navicular, Tendon Damage, Arthritis, Liver Disease....

[ace87]

I haven't posted on this forum in years, months something like that.. But I am desperate.

My beloved 10yr old Connemara was diagnosed with Chronic liver disease in 2011. It is managed but we do not orally medicate him for anything & he is on a very limited diet.
At the beginning of 2013 he was diagnosed with arthritic changes to both hocks, he has had two lots of steroid injections to the joints and one tildren infusion since.
He went lame in September.
In October he was diagnosed with Navicular, and in November MRI revealed extensive damage to DDFT in his right fore because of the navicular.

He was coming sound on his work programme, in walk on a surface, and for short bursts of trot in a straight line again on a surface in heart bars with a 3mm wedge but now we're back at stage one, lame horse.

** Before anyone recommends Rockley Farm, my insurance won't cover it and I just do not have £170 a week to pay for it. **

We're beginning to worry that he won't come sound at all. He was competing Elementary dressage, but all the Rossdales vets recommend him to be capable of in the future is hacking, which is fine. But now that's looking to be a struggle. We're resting him again, which has made him thoroughly depressed, he stands in his stable, head in the corner, doesn't bother looking up for people or anything. He gets turned out, brought in and is grumpy and not interested in people at all.

He can't spend the rest of his days as a live out companion, he is a native pony therefore needs careful grazing management in summer months (he is stabled all year round), all kinds of muzzles rub him raw, no matter how much fleece you put in them etc. His liver management is based on having 50% grass 50% hay diet, with no hard feed over 9% protein (fast fibre, hi fibre cubes, mollichaff apple are his basic feeds). In winter months he needs his legs wrapped at night to keep his arthritic joints from stiffening and swelling, and even then he becomes short and hobbly behind (upto 4/10ths lame) and requires Nutraquin+ daily as well as steroid injections every 6 months.
I simply cannot bute him up because of his liver condition, the deterioration would be quick - we see an immediate spike in his liver enzymes if he is even wormed, and with that would come colic episodes.

What on earth do I do, I'm sure there is a logical answer but I am so drowned by it and I just don't know what to do now. His insurance money has run out on the arthritis claim.. The navicular money is less than halved by the MRI..

I feel like his quality of life doing nothing is not acceptable, if he were to come sound enough to hack there would be no problem, but how long does one try for? We've been trying various combinations of rest, exercise, shoeing etc since October with what is essentially no luck

Help!

 

[cptrayes]

If you are desperate to save him I would do a home barefoot rehab. Otherwise I would have him put down. I am sorry you have such problems with him. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Orangehorse]

If you are desperate to save him I would do a home barefoot rehab. Otherwise I would have him put down. I am sorry you have such problems with him. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Ditto. Poor chap, and only 10 so I can really sympathise with you. Have the wedges removed first, then wait another 6 weeks before removing the shoes.

Had a friend whose horse used up all her insurance cover in one year with vets feeds and remedial farriery,but horse was as lame at the end of 12 months and vet thought PTS the only solution. On advice she removed the shoes in 2 stages, then sent to a barefoot rehab (didn't have all your horse's problems though). Came back a few weeks later sound and is still competiting endurance about 10 years later.

I think this is the only thing you can do really, there doesn't seem to be any other option left. Whether it will work only time will tell.

 

[HeresHoping]

Gosh. I'm so very sorry. His demeanor could be a result of the pain, or that he can't be outside so much. Big hugs to you.

Can he have turmeric and boswellia with his liver condition? It's - well, the turmeric, anyway - best fed in micronised linseed along with black pepper (I am yet to find the science behind this, and as an immunology graduate it's very much bothering me, but hey, ours is often not to reason why). Apparently people, horses and dogs across the world are having a new lease of life as a result of turmeric.

I have just purchased 5kgs of Turmeric, am getting an ArcEquine unit, and am having my boy's shoes off at the weekend. He is by no means as ill as yours but he has a torn left hind suspensory ligament and has possibly fractured (it is crushed and sheared according to his MRI) his lumbosacral joint in the SI region. He has practically been written off but my vet, who is a little less pessimistic than those who diagnosed him, suspects he has a very, very small chance of eventually becoming a rideable horse if he is turned away for 6 months and left to heal. Of course, I can't turn him away - no room, and no options - but he's having daily turnout whatever the weather and I'll be using the fact that he's stabled overnight to apply the ArcEquine.

In addition, and from what you've written, it would probably be fine for yours, I've put him on a very low sugar, low starch diet of the kind that supports barefoot. I've read a gazillion pages on barefoot, and can't help thinking that if I left him to grow his hooves how he would like, then there's a little bit of hope that they will support him better. Obviously, with no riding or in-hand work, he won't be getting the benefit of a track system or hours of tarmac work. I'm hoping the gravel track to the field will help stimulate his feet. Is it something you might consider?

At the end of the day, if you feel you've done all you can and he's still not getting any quality of life, there's no shame in pursuing the final option.

 

[Diddleydoo]

** Before anyone recommends Rockley Farm, my insurance won't cover it and I just do not have £170 a week to pay for it. **

You could try a barefoot rehab yourself. It may be slower than sending him to Rockley but there's enough information and support on here to get you started.

I'd be starting him on the Forage plus balancer, buying some boots and getting rid of the wedges. Start with VERY gentle exercise over his most comfortable surfaces and listen very carefully to what he tells you

There are plenty of experienced people on here to guide you along.

 

[ace87]

Thanks Hereshoping, the Nutraquin+ is made from Boswellia, see here:
www.nutravet.co.uk/horses/nutraquin-plus-450g

He has Milk Thistle daily for his liver and a magnesium rich supplement to support his feet.

We took his shoes off for 4 weeks between xrays and MRI and I did have him shoeless for a short while in the summer when he wasn't doing lots of road work, he has been barefoot behind for over a year. It's an avenue I would like to pursue, and we do have a gravel track from the stable to the field but that's all. I feel I am ill equipped to try this, I've always had my horses shod since I was a child but I am more than willing to try if it can help him. I would have loved to send him to Rockley

 

[ace87]

PS. Forage plus is 17.35% protein and contains oil, not an option If he were to be fed that we would need to start him on pred again at £85 a month and I would rather not be pumping him full of steroids.

 

[HeresHoping]

If you do have a look at the properties of turmeric (there's a FB page with a load of helpful info), you can substitute Olive Oil for micronised linseed, which will address the protein issue. ML is unfortunately very high in protein. If he tolerates the boswellia, he should be fine on the turmeric.

 

[criso]

PS. Forage plus is 17.35% protein and contains oil, not an option If he were to be fed that we would need to start him on pred again at £85 a month and I would rather not be pumping him full of steroids.

It's a supplement not a feed, a 50ml scoop of something that's 17% protein is going to be less of a protein contribution to the diet than a feed scoop of something that is 5% protein.
Alternatively you could buy the straight minerals and mix them up yourself without the tiny bit of linseed that they add to make it up to a level scoop.

Why not see if you can find a trimmer in your area and have a chat to see if they can support you going barefoot.

Also which insurance company are you with? Several people who have sent their horses to Rockley have had their claim initially rejected but then paid following appeals.

 

[ester]

you can do barefoot rehab at home (I managed it ) and it certainly sounds like it would be worth trying with him. Not a lot to loose at least. Re. the balancer could you use one of the powder based ones which are just the mineral mixes like prohoof?

With regards to grazing/restrictions we instigated a paddock paradise track style system round the edge of our 3ish acre field which kept them moving and restricted grass would this be doable for you?

We started with 10 min in hand road work daily and just worked up from that, with some help from hoof boots along the way (not navicular though).

 

[criso]

. Re. the balancer could you use one of the powder based ones which are just the mineral mixes like prohoof?

The pro hoof has 26% protein, they all have some but as I said the levels you feed at means it is not a high contribution to the diet.

 

[ester]

ah, hadn't had a chance to google, I agree with you though ref relative percentages when feeding so little. I feed equimins advance complete which is 14% - about 10g a day.

 

[ace87]

Insurance is Animal Friends, have had approximately 13 conversations with them re: Rockley, and have it in writing they do not cover the rehabilitation work or the livery costs, or any hoofcare unless carried out by a registered farrier.

Linseed is something I have been told to avoid in feeding by the specialist who dealt with his liver condition, as well as my vet, due to the oil content and protein content. And actually I consider it to be a conditioning feed not a supplement, and know many people who use it as thus - in particular, my instructor's 5yo mare who was lacking in condition until she was fed it. My lad lives on fresh air - he has chaff to disguise his milk thistle and nutraquin and a mineral lick and that's all, this winter he hasn't needed his usual fast fibre, nor has he needed a heavyweight rug, in fact I had to clip him as he was so hot under his medium weight with his nice little belly growing daily lol - come spring it's a nightmare to keep him trim!

I'm going to speak to my vet today and have his shoes taken off, he has been SO lame since he had them put on at the end of December.

Re: Tracks/grazing etc, I think this would be very difficult, we have one field for the three geldings, we separate part off to rest for summer/winter and rotate it seasonally, but creating a track system with three horses who have no respect for electric fencing no matter how 'on' it is is asking for trouble IMO. They are all brutes .

I am looking into hoof supplements, and if necessary the bare minerals to mix my own, so that I can best support his new foot growth. His back feet look so much better now a year on from when he had those shoes taken off, I'm really impressed with his frog development and how he hasn't had a farrier touch them in over 8 months, fingers crossed we can do the same with his fronts..

Can I ask, my yard is a dressage based one, we have a fabulous school, really super supportive surface but no hacking. I'm beginning to think I no longer need a super school and actually decent hacking with tracks, paths and roads is more of a necessity for me?

 

[jam14]

Im so sorry for all your trouble with your horse. We went through a bad year and a half with injuries among other things with one of ours and the last was nv which had 2 tildren infusions and still not 100% He is now great using corrective shoeing, herbs from a herbalist I use for my arthritic horse, no road hacking and staying on soft surfaces, rubber mats in his stable so not standing on hard ground ad sometimes he has buteless if seems off. We are lucky as our present yard has off road tracks once of which is fibre part way and also we have gallops and a fibre arena. He did have wedges for a while then didnt need these anymore. The vet was disappointed the tildren didnt sort it 100% but we are happy with him now. If you search JK's herbs on facebook you can ask them if they can help you in any way.

 

[criso]

Insurance is Animal Friends, have had approximately 13 conversations with them re: Rockley, and have it in writing they do not cover the rehabilitation work or the livery costs, or any hoofcare unless carried out by a registered farrier. -

No doesn't sound like an option in your case. It was just if you were with an insurance policy that had allocations for alternative husbandry which is often used to pay for Rockley and other rehab type. One person still had to take it to the ombudsman though.

Linseed is something I have been told to avoid in feeding by the specialist who dealt with his liver condition, as well as my vet, due to the oil content and protein content. And actually I consider it to be a conditioning feed not a supplement, and know many people who use it as thus -

Yes it can be but that is where the quantities come in.

I feed it to replace omega oils lost in hay but present in grass at about 100g a day.

I have also fed it for weight gain but at higher levels.

It is in the forageplus balancer at 16.5g and is there to make up the level to an even scoop, that is not enough linseed to be valuable as a supplement or cause weight gain but as you say with your horses condition could be an issue. Pity as it would be helpful for the arthritis.

Sounds like you are in a difficult situation where the needs for various conditions will conflict with each other. That's why I think if you could find a good trimmer who has a sound knowledge of nutrition you would be able to go through your options in detail.

BTW there is soya oil and linseed in your fast fibre and if the hi fibre cubes are spillers, they have sunflower oil in them.

Here's another supplement. It uses copper and zinc sulphate instead of the bioplex versions, the latter are supposed to be better absorbed but no linseed or soya in there.

http://www.equinatural.co.uk/EquiVitaForageMineralBalancer

There will be some protein in there (couldn't find the percentage) and it will probably look quite high by percent due to the lysine and brewers yeast but bear in mind a pony will only be getting 50g a day.

Yard wise hacking is good but initially bridlepaths can be stoney and you may need to work up to those. In the initial stages I would look for somewhere where you can do lots of gentle build up work in hand and ridden on smooth concrete and tarmac. Quiet roadwork is ideal. I wouldn't necessarily look to move now but see where I am in a few months and what my needs are.

 

[ace87]

Thanks Criso, great reply.

The fast fibre is only as and when in winter if he drops condition - when he was competing Ele year before last and working 6 days he needed it, but it was recommended by the vet so hence why I stuck with it. Fibre cubes aren't Spillers, they're badminton horse feeds fibre plus nuggets though I haven't had to feed them in yonks.. (fat pony r fat!)

I really did argue the holistic thing with A.F but they wouldn't budge, however the girls were SO polite and friendly and helpful that I can't really complain.

I see your point about the quantities of the Linseed, I'm just terrified in case something kick starts his liver problem again! I nearly had a canary when the feed shop didn't have the exact chaff I use, and spent 20mins in there googling ingredients of others!

What sort of work did you do to begin with? ie how frequently, for how long etc.

 

[ester]

It is generally reported that roadwork is good for feet.. and tbh straight lines are also much better for them than arena work. Both our 2 are very good with elec fencing so the track wasn't a problem but can see it possibly being an issue for yours. - we didn't do a circle for 5 months or so.
Fwiw my welshie gets about a mugfull of linseed daily (1-200 g depending on the season) and doesn't seem to gain weight on that quantity so in the supplement is really very insignificant imo although I can understand why you are careful.

 

[criso]

Exercise little and often and in straight lines, maybe in hand at first for 10 minutes. Don't force him if he's not comfortable. Look for a heel first landing, film this as it's very difficult to spot by eye, and as long as you have this and he seems happy, then let him guide you.

Smooth surfaces are good but some tarmac is a bit rough. Leading in straight lines in the school would be OK but a firmer surface would be better, not too deep.

You may find that the apple chaff is a no no though, it's very high in sugar. Most chaffs have either sugar or oil in so tricky. Honeychop do a plain straw chaff with nothing added at all and someone does a timothy chop however these may not persuade him to eat supplements in. Small amounts of fast fibre or the nuggets to carry the supplements are not going to be a huge problem. It's all about quantities.

 

[ace87]

RE: Heel landing, I have some photos to show the change in his landing, from an obviously heel first to very much toe first. When we took his shoes off and indeed when he was first shod in the heart bars he was starting to have a more heel first landing but I have noticed over the time since he was first shod in them (late nov.) his landing is back to totally toe first. His toe first landing is very easy to spot by eye sadly.

Our school is deep and supportive, a MA student studying the effect surfaces have on hot and cold points in the tendons and recovery times found ours to be the best of the many tested which is nice to know. Our vet has said ideal environment to cushion any impact in his new shoes, but obviously I was surprised when he said to begin the walk work in the school as I would have expected solid surface with straight lines.

I would struggle, big time with daily exercise on anything other than the school, I go to the yard at 5.30am to muck out and turn out, and don't get back there til after 7pm - ie I'm only there when it's dark. Hence my idea of turning him away for a few months until we have some more daylight..

I feel like all the advice given by the vets at Rossdales is exactly the opposite of the common sense approach to dealing with navicular. They even told me to bute him - something I nearly yelled at them for, he just simply cannot have long term bute - he very quickly starts head pushing, drops weight rapidly, is lethargic and colicky when his liver condition deteriorates and I have worked so SO hard to keep him well on that front! GRAHGWEGYG!

Any pointers on where to purchase hoof boots would be great, will measure him up this weekend once shoes off

Edited to add: Criso, you hit the nail on the head, he just will not eat the chaff without the apple, obviously when we didn't have to contend with the navicular too this wasn't a problem, specialist and vet agreed it was fine for him to eat as at least he was eating the supplements (and at that point steroids too) in his feed! The Nutraquin smells hideous and either copious quantities of carrots / parsnips / apples or flavoured chaff were the only way to get him to eat it. He turned his nose up at speedi-beet and chaff too, when he needed more energy we put him on maize which suddenly he would eat!

 

[wyrdsister]

So sorry about your lad - I know well the stress of managing multiple conditions! I don't know if this will help, but have you looked at Spillers Lite Balancer - it gets recommended by the PPID (Cushings) and EMS group on FB in preference to Forage Plus and Pro Hoof and has a slightly lower protein content. Barefoot rehab is doable at home - I've done it with my darling disaster mare (who also has navicular). She was nearly crippled in remedial shoes, despite best efforts to work with all the options, and it was our remedial farrier who looked at the vet and said 'let me take those off her, *now*!' She's not perfect, but she's better without them. I like the Cavallos and the Old Mac G2s for barefoot rehab, they're stable and easy to pad up. Good luck!

 

[Regandal]

He may be listless due to pain. I would give the turmeric a go, it has very good anti-inflammatory properties, and is also analgesic. It does seem to have almost magical effects on some horses, I speak from experience. One of mine has navicular, and he gets it as well, is symptom free at present. Good luck, you certainly have your work cut out. It does need to be given with a little oil, I use a handful of alfa a oil feed, doesn't seem to affect the absorption. Mine won't tolerate straight oil in any way.

 

[shergar]

As I am not sure how to do a link ,can you Google GALLIUM NITRATE FOR HORSES Worth a look ,its used for Navicular and Arthritis.

 

[ace87]

Shoes coming off tomorrow, bought linseed and seaweed, other bits on order, can anyone advise on quants to feed of linseed for a 15hh connie out of work who's a good doer and has to have a restricted protein diet?

 

[criso]

Good luck.

Feed about 100 - 150g of linseed in the winter to replace omega oils lost in hay. In the summer if he is out at grass you may not need it. I keep mine on it for joint benefits but halve it.

Sorry to tell you after you bought it but Seaweed isn't really recommended these days. It has minimal benefits and can overdose the Iodine. Unless you know your forage is specfically low in Iodine I would avoid.

Of 4 places I have had a mineral analysis done, only one was low in Iodine and then was only fed at a rate of a 1ml scoop daily.

 

[ace87]

Update!

Shoes have been off since 24.1.14 so nearly 3 weeks, feet were last trimmed at beginning of Jan so 5 weeks ago. He was on field rest til Saturday when I tried his hoof boots (cavallo sport) and had a 20min spin in the school (incredibly good supportive surface). Walk and trot totally sound, forward and willing. Like having my pony back! Instructor commented that she thought he looked like he would be fine without them in school so Sunday we had another 20mins in there barefoot sound and fabulous! Mainly walk both days but a good few circuits of trot each way, luckily our school is 37x45m so no need for little circles - no limping, no shortness of stride etc coped with plenty lateral work in walk (piris, leg yield into a stride of half pass back to leg yield etc) and was nice and forwards in the trot.

Yesterday he went for a tildren infusion (to help hocks and feet) and had his hocks medicated again (insurance money about to run out so making the most of it!), vet reviewed the video footage from Sunday and was impressed with him (YAY). He's in his stable for 2 days now after joint injections then back out in the field til Saturday when we'll go out hacking. Plan is now to Hack him on a Saturday & Sunday in his boots and school him lightly in walk and trot twice a week, increasing the amount of trot work each week, barefoot for the next 4 weeks then review again.

Have stopped the seaweed now, his feet are looking good, linseed seems to be not adding condition (yay) am only feeding 50g per day as desperately scared of him becoming a hippo, but now feel confident to up it to 75g. Take on board comments about not needing it in summer! Have re-ordered his Nutraquin+ so have a stock pile of 4 tubs (a years worth!!!).

So far so good - taking his shoes off has been the best thing I've ever done! If I can work out how to add photos, I'll add some video stills of superboy.

Sadly I'm about to change jobs so looking like I will need to find someone to loan him from my yard to pootle about with him, as will be back on the London commute

Thanks again for all the help - SO glad I asked

 

[TPO]

So pleased things are working out for you both.

You should be commended for keeping an open mind and taking that big step.

Wishing you all the very best with your progress