Help needed - horse rearing & refusing (sorry, long)

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Ahrena

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Hey,
sorry my first post on here is straight away for advice, but I got recomended here by someone because apparantly you're all very knowledgeable.
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Anyway. I have a 6 year old 14.2hh welsh cob section D called Lacey. I've had her since last August. She's a very good jumper and loves it, we've just affiliated with the BSJA (havn't done any yet though) and she does showing, xc and all that too.

Except recently, we've been having some problems. About 6 weeks ago she went through a phase of hardly jumping at all, so I had her back checked and she had her pelvis out of place.

Although she has improved, she still isn't back to normal. Then I took her on a hack where my parents walked with me (my dad works in eygpt and he came to stay and they wanted to walk the dogs). Lacey, being quite fast, kept getting too ahead. Then when I waited for them, she started spinning round, rearing and trying to bolt home. When she acted like this the next day in the school, rearing to try to get to the gate, we decided to have everything checked.

She had 2 massages with a physio/chiro, her saddle has been checked (was fine), teeth, everything.

She had 3 weeks off when all this was being checked, just out in the field 24/7.

I jumped her again for the first time on Thursday, just small fences (for her) incase she needed to get her confidence back up. So only up to about 2 foot 6 (usually its 3 foot 3 - 3 foot 6, but we hadn't even jumped this big just before she started stopping orginally so I don't know if she's lost her nerve or something) and she was fantastic, she didn't stop or knock anything down, much more like the Lacey she usually is.

I had a little show on saturday. I did the clear round which she did clear, then the 2 foot 3. She jumped a nice clear, but then in the jump off, she seemed to switch off. If that makes sense. Just before the start, she bucked, didn't respond to my leg, jumped the first fence, stopped at the 2nd for no real reason, then 3 fences later she stopped again.
Here it is on video. (just the jump off)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-6PozALFY

Then she had Sunday off, and I took her for a hack on Monday. Whenever we got to a point where we could go home quickly, she started spinning round, rearing, so obviously napping. (Because we can ride in Highclere Park there's routes home virtually every 5 minutes). I only took her out for 40 minutes or so but we had 3 or 4 arguements.

I didn't ride her on Tuesday, and when I took her for a hack yesterday..They're out 24/7 at the moment, and our summer fields are quite far from the yard, so we have this pen, in which we tie up to tack up because our hacking is right next to the field. Usually I get on outside the pen, but I got on inside this time, not sure why. When I was like half in the saddle she cantered to the gate from her field. She started spinning round and rearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHGLfNvS8o

After that big one at the end I got off, led her out of the pen and then she was fine. Didn't nap going away from home, 2 small rears at 1 of the cross ways, but when I trotted her down it she was fine.

I havn't ridden her in company for quite a while but I'm trying to arrange to. I have lessons, but havn't had one for a while, last one was about a month ago, but she wasn't jumping very well, my instructor just said to really ride her into the fences. I'm hopefully having a lesson on Saturday.

I hack her out 2 or 3 times a week, and jump her once. Thinking about it, I probably have competed her a bit too much, about 3/4 times a month, though it is varied as I've always thought both of us would get bored with pure SJ.

I asked advice on another forum and a lot of people said to turn her away for 2 - 3 months, which I wouldn't mind trying but preffably as a last resort.

Obviously she's more important, but I've got PC camp the last week of July (monday to friday) and then the weekend after that, we've qualified for the Trailblazer SJ nationals (only 75cm though so not big). This and two one day events (both 2 foot 3 - 2 foot 6) which I'm entered for in July make a sum of about £700, so any ideas to try and work her through it rather than turning her away would really be appreciated.

Obviously if she's getting worse, I will try turning her away but because that's so long term I'd rather try other things too.

I have realised I've probably competed her too much, so I'm going to only take her out twice a month or so once she's better.

I've already said it, but incase you missed it, she's had everything checked and she's fine, and she had a 3 week holiday whilst everything was being checked. Until Saturday, she hadn't been show jumped since April as every weekend in april we had a big championship, so I wanted to give her a break, although we did some dressage, le trec, beach ride and xc during that time, I just wanted to change everything.

My mum says if she doesn't stop rearing she has to go, and I really really REALLY don't want that - the only reason I'd sell her is if I was ruining her, not because of her behavour.

Any help would really really be appreciated. Sorry for such a long post!
 
Looks like she's napping to me - and also not enjoying her jumping.

I'd knock competing on the head for a while until she is in a happier frame of mind. Go to PC camp and have some fun. But I certainly wouldn't turn her away. But I also wouldn't go to trailblazers either.

Go out with your friends and their horses, and have fun hacking around different places. Don't go in the school. Try and go on some sponsored rides to do your jumping, and stay out of the school for a while.

She just sounds stale and bored - and she looks p**sed of in the vid.
 
When I watched the first video, I would blame you for the stop cos of the way you brought her in, to me she also looks total bored and fed up, I would advise lessons on her and stop jumping for a bit
 
Agree with that- I would let her have some fun for a while. Also her canter needs to become more balanced to enable her to jump out of better rythym, at the moment she looks a bit hit and miss as to whether she stays in canter and jumps off the right stride, if she doesn't it makes it an unpleasant experience for her creating the napping and refusing.
She would benefit from work on the lunge in side reins or a pessoa in canter to enable the canter to become slower and more balanced. She will then produce a better jump.
Also pole and gridwork would be of a benefit.
 
Actually I thought her canter was rather nice, and the OP was riding her very nicely.

She was having a good old nap in the arena - and I'm not sure that the OP could have done much about the first stop - other than anticipate it a bit more.

I really, really, really wouldn't drill her at all - just go and have some fun doing other things.
 
why arent you carrying a stick when she starts napping? Shes not actually rearing btw, a rearer stands straight up on its hind legs, shes just doing bunny hops - my horse does both, can rear and can also do those nappy bunny hops.

As soon as she starts napping you hit her really hard behind your leg, i bet you she will give up very quickly.

When i first had my horse he napped horendously, even in the school - once i got up the courage to hit him he hasnt done it since and now i can deal with it properly.

I currently dont hack my horse out as he rears, spins and bolts for home - hes a 17'3 very powerful KWPN 6yo gelding who i brought for dressage. I dont want to risk his legs out hacking so i just dont hack him out. For me its not the end of the world as hes got a long (hopefully) career of dressage ahead of him. I do walk him out round our 'block' in hand and lead him out on the lane aswell sometimes.

unfortunately my horse still does it even with another horse, the reason he does it out hacking is lack of confidence - whereas your horse looks like its just being plain argumentative.
 
AmyMay- I have seen the horse in question in real life and is is green in canter. She rushes and breaks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
AmyMay- I have seen the horse in question in real life and is is green in canter. She rushes and breaks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok - can only speak of what I saw in the vid.
 
couldnt open 1st vid but second one looks distinclty like she is napping towards the horses in the next field.
could you school somewhere without the distraction of other horses?
Other than that get some lessons to keep you confident in moivng forward
good luck
 
I certainly would not turn her away.
From what I can see she is purely being naughty and trying to get away with whatever she can. Mine spent last night doing exactly the same as her because he'd had 5 days off and was rather excited at XCing! bounce bounce! (He's good normally)
She needs to go forward off your leg so the second she bounces I would be putting my leg on and trying to drive her forward. (And use your stick as PG says) The best thing you can do is get a lesson sorted asap (if you have one on sat then great!)
Mine came out of winter into spring with a ridiculously fresh frame of mind and found life far too exciting. He was bouncing and napping so i got my instructor out and she made us school in the field flat out in trot for 30 mins plus without stopping; no walking just flat out trot, lots of circles, lots of changing the rein until he was almost on his knees and could not care less about napping. It did the trick and he's been fine since. (That was months and months ago).
Apologies if anyone thinks this is a nonsense idea but it was what my good instructor said and it worked!
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Looks like a typical welsh cob to me LOL! My last mare, who was a welsh cob, would try the napping and rearing thing too, they are just so clever.
 
Agree with P_G looks like plain old napping to me which is getting out of hand. If she doesn't go from your leg after you have asked her firmly, smack her hard. If she wants to turn left always turn her the opposite way back again - turn her right again to face the way you are going. If smacking doesn't work as soon as the napping starts try riding in tiny tight circles and stay in them, then ask her forward again - she should go because she will be confused. And use this again instantly you feel the napping start, you must react instantly to any tiny backward thought she has. You need to nip this in the bud now because it is also happening when you compete. Forget competing for a while and concentrate on sorting this, hacking for fun and with friends. Loads of luck, I know how horrible a napping horse is.
 
The first refusal, I'm afraid was the riders fault, if the horse is green, it is the riders job to make it as easy as possible for the horse. It would have been beneficial for the horse to have gone around the fence that the rider cut infront of, so that the horse was presented straight at the fence, rather than at an angle.

With the rearing I would say, onece you have turned the horse away MASSIVE pony club kicks and lots of noise ta chase the horse away from what its napping towards, once you've got it where you want it then you can be soft again.. getting off is the worst thing to do, as the horse has beaten you... If you cant solve the problem though, maybe ovoid it by finding a safer, quieter place where there is nothing to nap towards..

Good luck.
 
Hi i have had a similar problem. my horse naps (always has always will!!) and goes right up, so i have to be ready for her. I slap her down the neck to turn her away from where she is napping too usually the entrance to the ring or home, which always works. Also the horse has learnt a bad habit and they learn them quicker than good ones. Unfortunatley she need to learn that you will be jumping the jump whatever and that you will win. Problem with the competiton senario is if you are eliminated then you go out the ring and generally go home so the horse can learn this really easily. Dont compete until its sorted as 2 things you will become fed up and will always be asking are we going to stop at this jump and the horse wil pick up from your neg thought. also it will get into the stop/ elim/ go home habit as i had. We hired a local arena where most of the comps are held and schooled round it until she realised that we are going over every jump and thats it. I even took my daughters pony to nap too!!. This worked but we had to get tough with her. She is a jumper and thats it, obviously dont jump at home too often as they get fed up but id say school school school!!! thnk forwards all the time.

Grids are also a good for problems like this (among other problems) but again you must make sure that you go over everyone even if you stop. You will also benefit with help from the ground.

Dont give up i was beside my self going from jumping 1.20m to a
little 2 ft 3 class to try to stop it. But the above worked for me

Sorry to go on but have been there

good luck
 
Thanks everyone.

Her rhythm is usually fine, (well used to be) she used to just settle into a rhythm as soon as I asked her to canter, it's another thing that's changed.

Parisienne_Girl - I did have a stick but don't think I actually used it when I needed to -laughs-. I know the first things aren't rears, more bunny hops but that last one was. But I will give her a smack next time.

I'll cancel the ODEs and won't compete her until trailblazers, I can't get my money back and if she hasn't competed (except camp) before then she might be okay? It's about 6 weeks ago. Obviously if she's still awful then, I won't go.

Weezy - I have NO idea tbh, I've never noticed her being in season since I bought her.

By the way, I wasn't schooling in the field, I got on her there and intended to go for a hack but she charged off as I was getting on, we've got an arena to school in which is pretty good.


Thanks very much everyone, I was gonna school her tonight but I'll hack out with my sister instead and see how she is in company. I'll try and get my lesson on Saturday so I can see what my instructor says.
 
Its hard to have to cancel stuff i know but you have done the right thing. You have enough to think about after all you want to compete to win not to worry if you going to get round!

Good luck
 
My 16.1 baby started napping a few months ago, and until I had the courage to use my stick she would of carried on doing it.
You have to be firm, if you've had everything else checked and nothing else is wrong then it must be pyschological now, she knows she can do it, so she will. As soon as I learnt to be the boss(lots of growling and a whip handy) my mare hasn't napped since..it's not a case of beating her up, it seems to be a case of whos boss , and I would definetely recommend some riding lessons (not that your a bad rider) its just useful to get a second opinion.
 
Oh by the way, didn't see the post until after I posted.

She isn't green jumping! She's affiliated with the bsja, and it wasn't as tight an angle (into the first fence) as it looked. Since her worst has been after that show (napping wise) I was trying to get a good place for C&T champs, as I didn't realise how bad she would become, and she had jumped a lovely first round so I was trying to gt a 1st or 2nd to qualify. When she just started we went round everything.
 
As BBmat said really, as soon as you turn her, you need to get her going forward forget the head carriage, just boot her forward and get her working. It may be a good idea to take her into a school and work her before you hack her or get on her in the field, in the school you can sort any problems out straight away and she will not get away with anything. With a horse with attitude like this you cannot let her win, or she will do it everytime, you need to keep at it until you get her to do what you want, even if you are in the school for hours, do not leave until she does what you say. I know this sounds harsh but it starts off with just letting them get away with little things and they learn and push it more and more and then you end up with a horse with a bad name and you can do nothing with it. I have reschooled several ponies that were like this and worse and they all did exactly the same as she is doing, it will then go on to not going in the ring and just not going forward at all.
Make sure the bit you have in is not too strong for her, even if she is a strong pony put her in an ordinary snaffle with a flash or grackle noseband so she cannot open her mouth. Spurs are a good idea if you know how to use them and you have a good leg and i find a jumping whip is much better than a schooling whip. A good slap is better than a dozen flicks!
I would take her for a good gallop, really open her up, on your own or with a faster horse this is better, get her really motoring and going forwards. She looks to me like she has been doing to much tight-necked bouncy showjumping canter.
Take her in the school and if she naps going towards the gate put her on a small circle at the gate, flex her head to the inside and get her trotting and listening to you. If she doesn't go forward or starts napping boot her and shout go-on. This will panick her slightly and she will soon get fed up of being shouted out and booted in the ribs. It does not take long for them to get tired in this exercise so she should not put up a fight for too long. When she starts going round in trot without even looking at the gate, put her onto a bigger circle and if she still is well-behaved let her walk and have a breather. Unfortunately with a horse like this it is going to be several really hard sessions for you and the horse before you crack it completely. Once they learn when they nap it hurts them and it is unpleasant they usually stop and start listening.
I know what i have put a few people may say this is harsh or wrong or whatever but a few strict sessions are necessary as rearing and napping are dangerous for both horse and rider and other people around, especially at shows.
If you don't feel you can do this or are not confident enough I would consider sending your horse away for a week for it to be sorted or have some-one come and ride it for you, a decent instructor will also help.
As to the jumping it is a good idea to turn horse away or do something different with them so they do not get stale but as the owner of a competition yard I know that the owners of horses are not happy when you tell them that their horse is having a few months off or that they are going to miss a final because they are stale. So I would take her xc schooling over little easy jumps and have a real fly round fun time. Take somebody with you and go round in pairs, it really gets the horses going and gives them confidence.
Then I would take her to quite a few small showjumping places, only do one or two classes. They need to be tiny to the point where she could walk over them. Make sure you bring her in right at every fence, don't hold her head too much and give a lot of rein but be any means so not let her stop. If she stops and naps, persevere. Sit their and kick until she hops over or walks over it. She will soon learn that she cannot stop and will still go over the fence even if it is in walk.
Make sure the venue is not in a rush and always enter the clear round. She cannot learn that if she stops she comes out the ring. But don't make too much off a fuss about the jumping, make it a non-exciting thing.
I would still do trailblazers, but I would start working on her now and make sure she is absolutely prepared, she is jumping a higher classes than she is going to do at the finals and make sure she is getting clear most times out, don't worry about going fast in any jump-off aim for double clears everytime!
Wow my fingers ache now but I see a lot of combinations just like you and your pony and have to sort them out, don't give in to her, you are the boss, and don't find excuses for her. GET ON AND SORT IT OUT!!!!
 
I do sympathise with you when I watched that video and the last one was definately a rear! I agree with PG about the stick. Mine doesn't nap but he can threaten to rear and bunny hops occasionally when schooling and when over excited XC. He's done it quite a bit more recently as his schooling work has become a bit more technical and he occasionally loses confidence midway through a movement and tries to go up. My instructor told me to slap him with the stick if he does this, and although at first I was reluctant (as I thought it would make the situation worse) it has in fact really helped. Now the minute I feel him tense up to stop or try to reverse a quick sharpe smack with the stick and a firm "no" and I send him forward. Now i've learnt to anticipate it. The problem has improved 95% now with the very very occasional strop
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Wow okay, very long post.

The trailblazer is the first weekend of August, so do you think I should carry on competing her until then?

Smallest classes around here seem to be 2 foot 3? She can jump 3 foot 3 from trot so she can jump that from a standstill, would it be okay?

She's in a snaffle with a flash at the moment (even though she's strong) so the bit isn't a problem I should think.

XC schooling sounds good...but old problem of not having anyone to go with. People on my yard, everyone who I used to do stuff with is working away atm and the one other teenager doesn't 'do' anything other than SJ even though she's just doing BN, but it's her decision, so I can't force her.
 
Hi there. Know you've had lots of responses to this but thought I'd post anyway.

About 5 years ago I bought a 5 year coloured tbx. Although only 5 she was already jumping 3.6ft, had competed in SJ compeitions every week since she was about 4 and had been hunted several times. The people I had bought her from had done bearly any flat work at all - so her schooling was v green and we had to go back to basics, but the mistake I made was not going back to basics with her jumping to! She had been jumped solidly since the age of 4 so when I got her, as she jumped ANYTHING I carried on! I spent a summer winning everything at riding club level, then decided hey, I'm gonna affiliate her - took her round a BN, lovely got a clear! Warming up for the jump off, and I could'nt even get her over a pole on the ground (nope not kidding) we never even went in the arena for the jump off! After getting everything checked (back, teeth saddle etc), we started again about 3 weeks later, back to smallish height 2.3/6ft and she started doing exactly what your mare is doing, stopping dead at fences, or one time simply walking in the arena, slamming the breaks on and refusing to move forward!! I gave her a break of a couple of months from jumping and did sponsored rides and lots of hacking and continued working hard on flatwork, trying mainly to get her canter established and collected! In the end I sold her, mainly cause I decided that I just didn't click with her. However, I still keep in touch with the people that bought her, and they don't do as much jumping with her, mainly cause they love their dressage. She has qualified for Novice Trailblazers and her flatwork is marvelous! They do do some jumping and when they do, she flies round, and never gets any stops or napping from her, I truly believe that this is because her canter is established and she can balance herself and sort her striding out into a fence.

Anyway, moral of my story, perhaps you need to take her back to basics, really work on her schooling, improve her canter and then in a couple of months, go back to pole work, troting polle, cross poles, grid work. A couple of the comments have said she looks bored - do you know how much jumping she had done before you got her? perhaps she is bored, and although she can jump big fences, perhaps as her canter is unbalanced she has just scared heself and is now slamming on the breaks?
Although in the 2nd video, definately think she's trying it on and she needs one hard smack behind your leg to say you are in charge!

Anyway, sorry I know this is long, but defintely persevere with her and back to basics on schooling and improve her canter and schooling!

Good luck!
Mx
 
I think you have a combination of problems here, one of which (sorry) is your riding. You have good stickability, but are a bit insensitive with the aids...you also weight your right stirrup and don't sit quite straight, which might be exacerbated on Lacey because of her back problems.
She isn't happy or confident jumping (if it used to hurt, it can take them a while to get over it) and taking her competing is upping the pressure (esp jump off speed) to the point that she can't cope...and you don't make it easy by not riding her well to the fence (forwards, straight to the middle, and with impulsion, and avoid 'dropping' her at the last stride).
I think you both need expert help...and you need it now. Otherwise you'll lose your nerve (it's happening) and she won't regain hers.
Have you thought about taking her back a step to flatwork/gentle hacking then to pole work in the school?
Sorry, don't mean to offend you, but I'm sure you want to know genuine opinions.
On the plus side, if you and Lacey sort it out, you could be fab together.
S
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I think there are a few issues here. What sort of bit is she in? Whatever it is she doesn't like it and is raising her head to get away from it - which maybe isn't helped by your hands (sorry) I would consider re-bitting her either to a straight bar bit or something with a curb (curb's really seem to help welshies for some reason).

You need to stop her napping - do whatever it takes but you have to make her listen to you and again welshies are notorious for having to be bossed into listening - give her a good crack behind your leg or on shoulder when she starts - give her a good boot in the ribs to MAKE her listen - use your voice, shout at her but make her do it - as others have said she has learned that she can win when she naps so you have to prove her wrong, she will soon learn and stop.

Re the jumping I wouldn't necessarily stop competing her but I think that the class you were jumping in the vid was too small for her - she wasn't having to put any effort into it at all and wasn't paying attention because she didn't have to. But she does need lots and lots and lots of flatwork, she needs to be schooled to novice dressage it will help her to relax - lots of work long and low, give and re-take reins etc, yes it will be hard work but you and your pony will benefit. She doesn't need to be 'taught' how to jump, she has a natural jump but not always a natural stride - and that's where you come in, you need to help her with her stride but she has to understand the signals and you have to know what signals to give her - you can't just point her at the jump and expect to get over.

I'm going to go against what everyone has said here - I'm going to say get her in a paddock and put one jump up - put it in the middle of the paddock so you can come off either rein, start with the jump at a height you are used to jumping and then put up the fence each time - I'm thinking that as the fence gets bigger - probably to a 'scary' height then her ears will come forwards and she will start enjoying it - it will also give you both your confidence back. I'm suggesting this because we have had exactly the same issues (without the pelvis problems) with a Sec C mare - flatwork and jumping 'big' fences sorted out the confidence issues for pony and rider and I feel that that is part of your problem.

You now have no confidence that you are going to jump a round OK and she has no confidence in you (sorry if that sounds harsh I don't mean it to be that way).

On top of all that (as if that isn't enough) you both need to have fun, you need to have a good time hacking out but again it is coming back to the confidence thing. It isn't an impossible situation though and not as difficult to sort out as you think. You need to be firm and consistent and she will soon stop the performances - once you've achieved this then you can move forward.

Good luck - I really really hope you do well with her because you both look to have bags of potential.
 
I had a mare which I rode in the USA like this...she was in fact a quarter horse but had been constantly schooled at her last home and it had driven her potty that in the end she just was so misbehaved she became a really horrible mare at times...I braved it and rode her and she bucked, reared and spun nearly all the time and even managed to try it while we were under trees to really get me off her back - so she was pretty smart...
In the end I just gathered my reins and let her gallop - she messed about most of the way but learnt the run and built up tension and actually started to behave after that. Everyday would involve barrel racing, riding out and galloping in the back field...she became so relaxed by the end of it that a young girl competed on her in the final show...
Might be worth having a break from it...just to rest her mind and start off again a month or so....
 
Would agree with Shilasdair you are not riding her very effectively. At 6 maybe you have overdone it with her jumping? Hopefully you can get through this, it would be a shame to see a good pony go to waste.
I suggest getting some lessons on her with someone knowledgeable.
 
I have exactly the same napping problem with my horse, he does a simalar thing only worse. At the moment I cant even get him into a SJ ring without a lunge line behind him if there are other horses about.

I have tried everthing with my horse, but a god hard smack would be a good start. I have a proffesional coming to deal with mine at the weekend and she said it just sounds like he needs a very firm rider on him, as I have had no experience dealing with this and have worked on him for a year with no sucess I am getting someone to do it for me as hes getting worse.

I will let you know what she says as like I said my horse does EXACTLY what yours is doing in that vid only the only way to get mine through it is to walk him backwards as he goes mental when I smack him and im totally out of my depth, and I cannot get him off the yard alone either.
 
Sorry but I think she is still green jumping - you've only just joined BSJA & she still looks quite novicey to me.

Point taken that you didn't realise she was going to stop but I still think it was rider error there, concentrating too much on the turn, not enough leg.

Echo the others above - you're going to have to get tough with her, however be careful not to let it become a fight. Timing is crucial & TBH sometimes it's best to stand & wait & take tiny steps rather than cracking them & causing a massive argument.

Def don't turn her away - she'll only start this again when you bring her back into work.
 
Okay thanks everyone!

Critism on me is fine, no good if my aids or position are upsetting her.

The bit she's in is a loose ring eggbutt snaffle.

DD - Maybe she's novice in that sense, I meant earlier more than like..She's done enough for us to 'go for it' in the jump off (but after this we obviously won't for a while)

She might have stopped cos like you say I was thinking too much about the turn not the fence and because she jumped well in the earlier round I expected her to do the same?

Tillywilly - I could have done. I'm thinking of that now. Not in the sense that I jump her day after day for hours on end, but maybe she's competed a little too much and I should have only been taking her out once, occasionally twice a month.

Oh by the way, her back problem was the result of a fall she had cantering around in the paddock, it's been put back into place and she's had massages, so that's okay now, but as someone said, she might remember the pain.
 
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