Help needed im at my wits end re liver problems in my 4yr old

Hey, I'm sorry to hear about your horse being ill.
My boy is just on the road to recovery after having been very ill with a liver problem so I know how horrible it is. He had a biopsy, which went fine, so I would try not to worry too much about that although I know how scary it is when the vets talk to you about all the risks and stuff. I did lots of research while my baby was ill, and lots of vets said lethargy, grumpiness and general changes in behaviour were all indicative of a liver problem. An article I read also discussed 'self harm' and a general lack of self awareness as a possible symptom in horses so maybe this explains his behaviour? Also, with the liver enzymes, although it obviously depends on which enzyme it is, my boy had an enzyme level of 900 in an enzyme that wasn't supposed to be higher than 80, and has made a full and relatively speedy recovery (he was diagnosed two months ago and comes off the drugs in 2 weeks, I've been able to ride and he's been back to normal for over a month. ) so I would try not to be too alarmed.
I hope your boy gets better, and if you have any questions don't hesitate to PM me-I know quite a lot about liver now!
Fingers crossed
xxx
 
FaldingwoodLivery said:
Quick question for box of frogs. Would these end stage symptoms be present all the time or come and go? We've just had the vet out to hellywelly's horse as he had quite a strange episode tonight. He came in from field completely happy, was put in stable fine, ate his tea then out of nowhere started violently throwing himself around with very severe force, his eyes were glazed over too. But by the time the vet got here he'd returned to normal, so she said she doesn't think it was related to his liver problems but we just cannot put it down to anything else!!
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my vet warned me that it was possible horses with liver damage could start having fits- almost like epilepsy :( He said to ring him if i saw Dex having one but it was important i didnt go near him mid fit incase i got hurt (thankfully, to date, Dex hasnt had any of those issues) I used to care for a connie that had had meningitis as a foal and he would have the odd fit identical to the one you described ( sadly that chap was put down at 5 as fits became so violent )
 
ok some more info for you::::::

we had a full liver count on the 17/11 and the results are below ( numbers in brakes are the normal ranges)

albumin 31g/l (23-37)
alkaline phosphatase 267 u/l (20-180)
ast 671 u/l (150-600)
calcium 3 mmol/L (2.6-3.3)
ck 497u/l (10-385)
creatinine 99umo/l (40-160)
ggt 189 (10-60)
glucose 3.6mmol/L (2.8-6.5)
ldh 588u/l (190-480)
phosphate 1.04mmo1/l (0.60-1.800)
total protein 77g/l (53-76)
urea 4.4mmo1/l (2.5-8.3)



these were then repeated four weeks later and almost everything had gone up but still the vet says this isnt enough to cause the fits and she has become "very very worried" her words from dont worry he will be totally fine a week ago.

the results on the 21/12 were as follows

albumin 37g/l (23-37)
alkaline phosphatase 307u/l (20-180)
ast 860 (150-600)
calcium 3.4 (2.6-3.3)
ck 483 (10-385)
creatinine 129 (40-160)
ggt 199 (10-60)
glucose 3.6 (2.8-6.5)
ldh 612 (190-480)
phosphate 1.47 (0.60-1.80)
total protein 84 (53-76)
urea 5.7 (2.5-8.3)

IF ANYONE CAN UNDERSTAND THIS AND EXPLAIN WHY MY POOR BOY IS NOW FITTING PLEASE HELP!!
thanks
 
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I would INSIST that bloods are sent to Andy at Liphook ASAP. My vet said that he is the very best at interpreting the bloods accurately as the figures alone do not give the full picture...i would also ask the following..
Has a liver function test been done to look for bile in the blood?
Has the liver been examined by ultrasound?
Why do they think a liver biopsy unnecessary?

Is the horse on any supplements- as a minimum it should be on milk thistle. Again, my vet was insistant that Dex have Heptosyl tablets and Liver Active in his feed aswell, stressing that "we must cherish the liver of Dexter as when we run out of liver, we run out of Dexter"

I wish you all the best in your search for a solution
 
i have emailed the profs in liverpool and this is the reply i got which doesnt sound too good

This does not look good to me... the signs are consistent with high blood ammonia and that is most often due to liver failure. What are his bile acid results? The liver could be scanned at least and possibly biopsied but it's not good! Has he had access to ragwort? There are some primary cases that have high ammonia - where did you get him from. There may be some other options too of course including "forms of seizure" - he is very young! When was he last completely normal?? Has he been normal while you have owned him? Did you have him 5*'ed??
I am sure your vet has thought of all these - maybe there is a referral centre near you wheer the extra things can be done.

Haven spoken to my vet 2day we are having the biopsy in the new yr and have been told if he keeps fitting we are going to have to pts and they are now thinking he is getting to the point were he is too far gone.
we are going to blood test him every week starting from 3wks after the biospy.
im now hoping for a miracle.
such a pity he is a handsom and clever boy
 
Sorry, only just spotted the query re end stage symptoms. End stage symptoms are as they suggest. The last things that happen as the disease progresses to fatality. The symptoms can indeed come and go but there will be an inevitable move to more and more. They are caused by neurological damage from the toxins circulating in the blood that would normally be broken down by a healthy liver. The more toxins there are, the more damage is caused, eventually to all organs. The neurological ones are very distressing and it would be clear that the horse was suffering. Can't remember if I said but it can include blindness, staggering, odd gaits/walking, standing in the corner of the stable pressing the head against the wall (terrible to see), sudden panicked flights across pasture, strange vocalisations, self harm and harm to others including the owner. End stage is end stage and no owner in their right mind would intentionally let a horse progress to this stage. Fingders crossed x
 
im luck as my mare pulled throught as it didnt look good at some points, her eyes would go glazed, she kepts getting colics, leacving feeds etc, vets tried steroids and all sorts she had 3 liver biopsys as well none found the cause, she would be calm 1 min them explode the next and collapsed on one occasion,
it was a year long battle to save her and in the end a human blood pressure tablet along with heptoysel got her liver function again
really hope your horse pulls through
box_of_frogs really helped me to
 
hellywelly1 said:
i have emailed the profs in liverpool and this is the reply i got which doesnt sound too good

This does not look good to me... the signs are consistent with high blood ammonia and that is most often due to liver failure. What are his bile acid results? The liver could be scanned at least and possibly biopsied but it's not good! Has he had access to ragwort? There are some primary cases that have high ammonia - where did you get him from. There may be some other options too of course including "forms of seizure" - he is very young! When was he last completely normal?? Has he been normal while you have owned him? Did you have him 5*'ed??
I am sure your vet has thought of all these - maybe there is a referral centre near you wheer the extra things can be done.

Haven spoken to my vet 2day we are having the biopsy in the new yr and have been told if he keeps fitting we are going to have to pts and they are now thinking he is getting to the point were he is too far gone.
we are going to blood test him every week starting from 3wks after the biospy.
im now hoping for a miracle.
such a pity he is a handsom and clever boy
Click to expand...

((hugs)) Helly, i really hope that something can be done- it was a very distressing period for OH and i :( so we understand how desperate you must feel :( the wonderfully helpful BoF was a tower of strength/advice/support to us and i am glad she is able to offer her sound advice (although i would bet that she would rather be ignorant of this topic..as would i..)
 
How awful
-- fingers crossed for your boy. Time is definitely of essence so hopefully your vets will now move up a gear or three!

A friend of mine sold a little pony she'd had on the yard since he was 18 months. About two months later he died in the trailer on the way to the clinic - the biopsy results arrived at the same time as they pulled into the clinic gates They had a PM and it turned out he must have been living with ragwort damage since he was a coltling. The vet explained that the liver cannot regenerate from ragwort damage due to the type of scarring it leaves behind. The pony had been living with a barely functioning liver for years (he was 8), but when he moved yards he might have come in contact with a low level virus - something one probably would not even notice other than "horse a bit down" in a healthy young horse, but in this little guy tipped his liver function over the edge. He went from healthy to banging his head against the wall within three days. They had the biopsy done immediately, 24 hours later he was on his way to the clinic and unfortunately never made it there.

Unfortunately when the liver is already damaged and operating at low capacity it doesn't take much to tip it over. However, as many previous posters have said, many parts of the liver can be fixed! HEALING VIBES For your horse.
 
thanks every1
all seems to have gone quite with my boy and he is being his normal relaxed self so we are just waiting for the 6th of jan when we find out what damage has been done to his liver through the scan and biopsy.

teddy's bile acid came back yest and was 13 which wasnt too high as the normal range the vet told me was between 0-10, some horses have pulled through with bile acids in the high 20's.

im just gona think + and talk him out for nice walks in hand and well keep every thing crossed as much as i can.
 
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