Help needed pricing a project horse :(

Hoof_Prints

Hoof_Prints

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Hello, absolutely gutted to be writing this but I have been banned from getting back on this horse (mother's orders) after he took off with me today.
I paid a decent price for an absolutely top class 6yo 15.1 Connemara gelding. Really nice sort, was hoping to keep him long term for hunting and a bit of eventing. All was going well, hacking out like a dream, went showjumping and all nice, calm and easy .. a bit nervous to mount to begin with but we cracked that in a couple of days and I was hopping on and off no problem out hacking and in the school.

Unfortunately I thought it would be a good idea to try him hunting, he was great to hack and a bold jumper so thought I would try it and keep him right at the back taking things slowly. It didn't go well, he did nothing naughty but he was very upset and unsettled. I took him home after 20 minutes. He was very stressed in the stable and it completely changed him, I jumped on a couple of days later, thinking nothing of it and as I went to do my girth he freaked and leapt forwards so I fell off. I didn't get back on, I just settled him and lead him around.
Fast forward a couple of weeks and all is ok again, riding everyday, a bit unsure and sensitive about mounting but no problem really, just getting on and settling him down. Once we get moving we are fine. Back out hacking and jumping, things looking good.

Today I was riding , got on no problem in the yard, remounted in the field and schooled him nicely. My mum came up to watch and noticed my flash was catching his bit guards, I got off to remove the flash, went to remount and he was so tense and scared he was like a coiled up spring. I took it very slowly, gradually standing on one side then bringing my leg over. He freaked, leapt off and did about 5 laps of the school in gallop , running terrified until I jumped off in to the fence, he was not stopping until I was off.

I am just gutted, he was doing so well. He was calm and chilled at a busy show and doing everything I was asking him to. But now I can't get back on, I haven't got the bottle and my mum has told me I absolutely can't as it scared the life out of her. I am not afraid to admit defeat !

So what do I do? I know there is a brilliant horse in there and he has no badness in him, he is the softest horse you've ever met... too soft . Had all vet checks done very recently as I have not long had him. I'm not going to go moaning back to the seller , he is my responsibility and I really think he needs re breaking, he clearly has a fear of the rider which was triggered by going hunting. He is also good in all other ways on the ground, so he is a pleasure to have around the yard, making matters far worse for me :(

On that note, how do you price a very talented, very well bred horse that has one major issue? of course I don't want him to end up a neglect case in the wrong hands, so I am not at all against having a bullet put in his head, he knows no different. I am just sad as he was so happy and enjoying his life until he got upset. I can't have anyone try him here, what a nightmare. The horse's welfare is top priority.

Thanks in advance, a stiff drink is required tonight :(
 
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I am sorry you are not having a great time with your new horse. If it were me I would pay a professional yard to assess and work on this prior to sale, so he has the best chance of finding a good home.

If he is indeed talented then once he is back to a state that he can be viewed properly then he will find a good enough rider to take him on.

I agree that you should not get back on if you are not confident to do so.
 
Thanks for the reply,
I have bought a few young/ just backed horses to bring on. I am very used to green horses, and dealt with most young horse issues, but I know my limits and after breaking a few bones last year in freak accidents, I am not risking it. I bought this one a bit bigger with the intention to keep for myself but it's not happening! Not much has phased me, I will sit rears, broncs, silly napping and deal with it. I trained a few problem horses for people with napping issues earlier this year, but this explosive, nervous tension is just too much. I suppose he can sense I'm nervous.
I just don't want anyone to get hurt, but the horse means no wrong, he's just worried.
 
Sounds very scary, and not unlike the incident i had with a mare i had on loan. I did super loads of ground work with her but it never worked, she was not happy with me. Back home she turned into her usual lamb like self, the horse i originally met and wanted. Sometimes horses like this just need a quiet calm life...someone who is not going to ask too much of them but is going to really let them take their time at anything. Would you be able at all to let him have time off? Then somewhat rebreak him..or is mum adament he has to go? Honestly, as a project he might get ridden a few times by someone with major balls and they deem him fine, then this will happen again.
 
IME different people have different skills. Mounting issues was something that I worked with until a few years ago, when my back/hip packed up and mounting at all became problematic, even with a rock of a horse and huge mounting block!

One horse I helped was a Prix St Georges level horse, whose owner was a dressage expert. TBH I would not be a success riding at that level, but I was certainly able to help the horse with his mounting issue (that had previously put someone in hospital).

In your example, if a horse was anxious I would not have mounted at all, but worked on advance and retreat until the horse was relaxed, and was even a bit board. In fact, with the dressage horse, because it had a "history" I did not take weight into the stirrup until I could do star jumps on the block with no issue - some going, as at first the horse would not even contemplate going near the block at all.

I am saying that there will be someone - such as Richard Maxwell for instance, who specialises in these issues.
 
You only got him recently so you don't think he could do with a vet check again? Anything could have happened. He could have twisted something in the field, your saddle may be causing pain, maybe a Wolf tooth is causing trouble. At the very least get the horse checked
 
You are not inexperienced so selling him is not going to be as easy as it would be if he belonged to the average person who had taken on something they were not able to cope with, I have taken on similar projects but only from people with less capability/ experience and most pros would be wary of buying from someone like you, apart from the dodgy dealers who have no scruples and are prepared to dope or whatever to get a sale.

I would do as Red 1 suggested and invest in a few weeks schooling by a decent pro rider, let them give an honest opinion and possibly help you sell if he is coming right otherwise I think I would seriously consider pts, if he were mine I would turn him away now for at least the next 2 months, let him forget as much as possible and then send him away once the weather is nicer and the days are longer, it gives you breathing space, gives him a chance to relax and it is a better time to sell if you can.
As for value with my first paragraph in mind I think you will be lucky to get more than a token because most knowledgeable people will be wondering why you, a capable rider, have given up on him so you are left with the dreamers, the inexperienced and the dodgy ones to deal with. So his best chance is to get a pro to sort things out first, you may not get a good return but have some chance of covering the training costs.
 
Thanks again, really appreciate the replies. I would never let him go to a bad or dodgy home, he is so sweet but I have just hit a brick wall as I can't get back on him. I am not too bothered about the money side of things now, I just would never live with myself if he ended up in a bad way or someone got hurt. I am experienced and capable with most things, but I know that you get nowhere if you don't admit when you are out of your depth or need help. I think the pro rider route is going to be the best, until he went out hunting he was a dream, my sister came back from uni and jumped on him at a show and he was good as gold. She hadn't ridden for 3months! then took him out hacking and jumping ditches. It is just one of those issues that are hard to sort. I have a video only a week ago of me jumping on and off messing around with the jumps and he didn't care at all.

He was checked over about 3 weeks ago, had teeth fully done and saddle and back all checked before he started work. He passed a vetting before he arrived and is not sore anywhere obvious. I agree it may be worth getting it done again though before anyone else tries to work with him.
 
I've owned some horses with such serious issues that take years to sort out. Most people deemed them dangerous. In fact I've never had one that hadn't needed re-breaking/ backing. My advice to you would be absolutely not to get on this horse. I would certainly go back to basics straight away. No need to give him a break in my opinion. But if he's been worked hard constantly then a break would be kind to him, to give him a rest. A poster mentioned Richard Maxwell who I've found to be excellent with mounting issues and promotes long-reining on the ground.
Don't knock it before you try it, I used the parelli 7 games successfully with 2 very wired and nervy horses- a Welsh and Anglo-arab with great success. My current one had a traffic phobia which was overcome using clicker training. Join up can be great for disrespectful horses too.
As you can see I'm not one for giving up and if you feel capable enough and think he's worthy of investing your time then I would either sell him on with the above in mind, send him away for this to be done, or do it yourself.
Pts/ companion only would be the other options imo.
 
Whats his feed/forage regime? Have you tried the wonder drug magOx? I know it definitely made a difference to the mare i had, she calmed a lot but then it stopped working and she had a massive regression again. I was too nervous for her though, and we were just not meant to be.
 
How did you react to him taking off? It may sound bizarre but I had a really nice horse who would bolt with anyone when put under pressure. I found fighting him was the wrong thing to do, he just panicked more. Actually dropping the reins and stroking the neck worked. It was as if he just panicked when he didn't understand what was required. Once reassured he was a good boy and all was ok he would just stop. I can't really explain it tbh. From a horse I was advised by a BHSII to have shot, he became my horse of a lifetime. I just think if they are a genuinely nice horse to handle, which mine was, and want to please then it is worth pursuing but you need to think out of the box. :)
 
As I'm guessing his food source is likely to be different I would, selling or not, put him straight on table salt and some magnesium. It may not do any good at all but it will be a very cheap thing to try, you shouldn't need to get on to see if there's a change just tack up and see how tense he is.
I have a mare that I can do anything with on the ground though she is very nervous, she is retired, but I couldn't understand why I was having trouble getting close enough to feel how prominent or not her ribs were, then I twigged, I usually make feeds up dry in advance but for a few days, maybe a week I was just putting feed straight in the bucket and hadn't been adding salt and magnesium. I resumed and within a couple of days she was much easier to get near.
Coincidence?
 
I believe it is just a blip, however how to tackle the blip withing reinforcing his nervous behaviour is the issue. I am not one to give up and sell on, I never have been but I also value my bones and I know it takes one bad fall to get hurt. The natural horsemanship route it interesting, I did consider it but I would have to be careful not to wind him up further, I think there is a fine line between desensitization and just scaring them. He is just feed a scoop of speedibeet and some micronized linseed, he doesn't need much else. He lives out most of the time in a small herd and has a relaxed lifestyle. He dozes off in his stable and trusts me to catch him, but is unsure of new people. It took a while to catch him in the field, but now he trots up licking his lips for his pony nuts. Food works with him, but he is too nervous to eat it when being ridden most of the time.

I am in Leicestershire AA

When he took off I was pretty calm, I am a very chilled out kind of rider and didn't panic at all, just sat quietly and tried to turn a circle, then dropped the reins and fount a nice place to jump off! He is a genuine boy who wants to please, he would never do anything naughty. But it doesn't matter if the behaviour is based around fear, pain, or just being a nob, they can all result in serious injuries on both parts!
 
dozzie said:
How did you react to him taking off? It may sound bizarre but I had a really nice horse who would bolt with anyone when put under pressure. I found fighting him was the wrong thing to do, he just panicked more. Actually dropping the reins and stroking the neck worked. It was as if he just panicked when he didn't understand what was required. Once reassured he was a good boy and all was ok he would just stop. I can't really explain it tbh. From a horse I was advised by a BHSII to have shot, he became my horse of a lifetime. I just think if they are a genuinely nice horse to handle, which mine was, and want to please then it is worth pursuing but you need to think out of the box. :)
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I know exactly what you mean. My horse is not in any way bad, he wouldnt know the word tank off or bolt..but he does get stressed some times ( i assume from being such a kind plod being forced to go on the hunts) his head goes up and he almost runs under himself and if you pull more and grip he will continue, if you drop all contact, slow it right back down, he goes back to his ploddy old self. Hes a stress winder.
 
If he is a nice person and you was hoping to keep maybe sending to a pro and you working alongside a pro would be a thought. It isn't THAT big of an issue to work with TBH, even though I agree very scary and that you shouldn't get back on if you are wary. Either way the horse won't sell with this 'quirk' so would need to be fixed by someone else if you sold or not. Seems a shame to spend the money on fixing him to then sell when he is a nice horse in every other way.
 
Teeth / back, vet/ saddle . . .and then take him back to basics . .basically, treat him like he's not been broken yet.

No point passing this animal on . .it will just be passed on and on unless sorted.

Give him a chance, and give yourself a chance . .x
 
Do you know his history at all, many of these super nervous types had nervous dams or unhandled dams. Assuming he is not in pain or has underlying health issues a specialist would be able to help him. The worst thing for him was to have a rider off, it will have frightened him badly. My horse was exposed to things dropping off him from every angle, over his shoulders and off his backside, it took weeks before he made the decision to stand and let it happen. Even now, 18 months on from being started he will revert to his clear off default if he gets frightened, it has taken over 4 years to get him to trust us and even now I am the only one who he will allow to catch him.

It does sound like your lad may not have been backed properly or made comfortable with things above him.
 
I can't see any signs of pain , but I don't suppose you can ever be 100% sure they haven't hurt themselves. The problem itself isn't huge, it is just the task of getting him to relax when mounted. Once that is sorted, the rest is easy really as everything else he is fab at. I just don't want to get on and

1. reinforce the behaviour if he tanks off again and I come off, which is probably going to happen
2. kill myself!

So it needs sorting from the ground and somehow transferring to the saddle. That bit is tricky, as everything is fine on the ground, he lunges like an angel and will "join-up" . He just seems to think you are going to beat him up from the saddle. He was fine with me on him until I reached down to pull up a sock and he must have thought it was going for a whip, shortly after I was out cold in the field. But as I said before, this only happened after he went hunting and before that it was not an issue.

Any reccomendations for people that could help in the leics/warks area?
 
I think the mother is correct in that you should not be riding him for now. I know many horses "shut down" during parelli and the like, but i would rather have a horse shut down as i bent to pull up my sock rather than tank off.
 
What about the people Princess Sparkle sent her youngster to, they are in Leicestershire so should be near enough, I think they backed using a western saddle, you would have to search back or go on their facebook page to find out more but worth looking into.
 
He's booked in for the works next week to get everything ruled out, he has taken off like this just the once. He has had a "flight" a couple of times, but he just came back once he realized it was not actually scary. It's a new thing since the hunting, he would be unsure but never do that. I don't know his history , only that he had apparently hunted and done some xc schooling and hunter trials in Ireland... I doubt the hunting went well !

I think he has been broken very roughly and being ridden has become something horrible, rather than relaxing or enjoyable. He certainly knows what a whip is. Shut down horses are fine by me equi! I am 22 and have been backing and training young horses for years, but mother has put her foot down this time !
 
In all honesty I would send him for schooling to make the horse you thought he was. You can sell him for no more than meat money with this problem as he is potentially lethal.
I would be getting a second back check, saddle check and possible ulcer check done followed by professional schooling - if he isn't fixable by this then he isn't rideable. If all is fixed and you still dont want to ride him he is at least sellable
 
Hoof_Prints said:
He's booked in for the works next week to get everything ruled out, he has taken off like this just the once. He has had a "flight" a couple of times, but he just came back once he realized it was not actually scary. It's a new thing since the hunting, he would be unsure but never do that. I don't know his history , only that he had apparently hunted and done some xc schooling and hunter trials in Ireland... I doubt the hunting went well !

I think he has been broken very roughly and being ridden has become something horrible, rather than relaxing or enjoyable. He certainly knows what a whip is. Shut down horses are fine by me equi! I am 22 and have been backing and training young horses for years, but mother has put her foot down this time !
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I can't claim to know every hunter in ireland, but yeah many of them are broken with a rider who sits like glue and when they are ok to go they are hunted flat out to see how brave they are...which may mean they need a good lashing and geeing on...making them terrified rather than brave...but horses being horses will do anything they can to get away from something unpleasant which in somes eyes is brave.
 
I am trawling through videos and he looks a lot more comfortable until there is a change, I hadn't even noticed to be honest, but it is clear to see in the videos how he is relaxing in to the bridle, then starts being a bit evasive. He has teeth Tuesday, thinking his back might be causing issues. I have had back tightness before and it absolutely kills, so I can sympathize if it is that. Either way, I am not getting back on any time soon so once the health checks are done, x rays if it comes to that, I will go down the professional schooling route and see what they say. I simply am not experienced with "problem horses" only green ones. The back woman takes a couple of weeks so I will just lunge until then with the equiami and give myself a break, ride the easier ones for a while.

I will probably still sell him now as I would never hunt him again after how it upset him, and that's what I wanted him for mainly. As long as doesn't end up in the wrong hands and is comfortable and nobody gets hurt I am happy.
 
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