Help needed with 'over-protective' loaner

[littlelottie]

I got a sharer for my horse about 4 years ago when I found myself in a position where I could not longer afford the time/money my boy needed. The sharer was really good (she was 14 at the time but very mature for her age) and I went out of my way to make her feel included in decision making etc. After a year my personal circumstances (marriage breakdown) meant that I was still finding it hard to support the horse and the sharer then became a full time loaner. In the years that followed I regularly see my horse and despite their persistant requests to buy him off me, I have made it clear that that will never happen as I could never part with him.

Last year I requested that I take him back for 2 days a week as I missed him desparately and this went well for about 4 months then I got a phone call out of the blue saying they were thankful for my efforts but they no longer needed me to help out. I was so suprised to say the least that I put the phone down then burst into tears.

I'm now in a position where I would like him back even it its only one day a week but I'm a bit scared of rocking the boat. I don't know why - I know he's still my horse but as per the title the loaner is very protective of him and I know the news won't go down lightly. I don't want her stop loaning him (I don't think she would) as I would struggle with him full time. I also know she's good for him and does more riding, schooling, shows etc than I could do. On the down side it would mean be having to bite my lip as we differ on opinion on whats best for him (she rugs him up to the hilt where as I don't think he needs that much etc)!

I don't know what I'm asking exactly, just advice on how to proceed I supose? Sorry its so long

 

[asbo]

well he is your horse & you need to make them aware of that.

call them and say you need to chat & can you meet up

 

[PaintboxEDT]

did you draw up any sort of contract ? i loan my horse and i know that he is never really mine and wouldnt dream of stopping owner seeing him although im very lucky and all i do is txt her now and again to let her know he fine.

you should put your foot down and tell her you WILL be coming down to see YOUR horse a few times a week,yes she has looked after him but at the end of the day he is yours and you have every rite to see him,if she doesnt like it then take him back and find another loaner

 

[YorksG]

Looking at it from the point of view of the loaner, she is now loaning him, not sharing, so for you to turn up to ride him seems a bit off. I think tbh that if I were her and her family I would say in that case that you must have him back.

 

[Louby]

Hello

I think I would be exactly the same as you but then I can understand both sides. It sounds like you have found the perfect loaner for your horse and that she cares for him deeply, so much so she doesnt want you involved anymore. I understand fully that you had to put him on loan but I dont think that I personnally could have done it. I think I would have rather sold him knowing he had a wonderful home as I wouldnt like to share my horse with anyone.
At the end of the day he is YOUR horse and if you want to take a part in his care etc then its ultimately up to you so you need to be firm. Of course theres a risk she may turn round and say she wants him 100% of the time or nothing. Did you have a written agreement when she took him on stating it was a share agreement or full time loan?
Good luck I really hope you sort something out.

 

[littlelottie]

She knows I go to see him as she is there sometimes and I know she'd never say I couldn't go and see him. It's because I want to be more hands on that I know she will not like it. I get the impression that she is used to getting her own way with her parents.

I didn't have a contract this time. I had a sharer briefly before her and had a watertight contract but the girl was a nightmare and the contract meant nothing at all in the end.

I suppose I blame myself for trying so hard to make sure she was included - she kinda took that idea and ran with it lol!!

 

[PaintboxEDT]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at it from the point of view of the loaner, she is now loaning him, not sharing, so for you to turn up to ride him seems a bit off. I think tbh that if I were her and her family I would say in that case that you must have him back.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont agree,i loan my horse and would have no prob with them coming to ride him,loaning a horse is all about knowing the owner could want him back at any time etc,if people arnt happy with owner wanting to come see him then buy your own !!!

 

[littlelottie]

YorksG - I see what you're saying but would it be so bad if I had him back one day a week? I'm prepared to pay towards upkeep or whatever?

Louby - thanks. I suppose I always think that if I didn't like how they were treating him then I could have pulled out all the stops and got him back. If I had sold him then I would have had no say at all. I never expected the loan to be forever - the length was never specified but as Paintbox says it's part of the deal loaning knowing that the owner could want them back at some point?

 

[Louby]

I agree totally but it sounds like the loaner/sharer would be prepared to buy her own as she wanted to buy this horse. Littlelottie is probably a bit worried she may rock the boat and end up with her horse back full time which she said she would find really hard. Its a difficult one as he is looked after really well by this girl although I think I would have to say something.

 

[Louby]

Littlelottie, I really feel for you, Im a complete wimp and avoid confrontation but I think you need to say something. Its eating away at you and afterall he is your horse. I feel for the loaner too but you never know you may be able to sort something out. Shes older now and I presume she will be working or starting work soon, maybe it could work well for both of you.

 

[littlelottie]

Thanks Louby. Without sounding silly I dream about riding him most nights and I wake up really happy then realise it's just a dream lol

For what its worth I really don't think she would buy her own as she absolutely idolises him. You are right though she is at collage now and work will soon follow I guess.

 

[shadowboy]

I cant believe the loaner of your horse told you that they didnt need your help! I'm not suprised you were upset! I would definately take him on one day a week, hover much this will rock the boat- he is yours and you should have some input into his life etc. Does she pay absolutely everything for him?

 

[Tinypony]

He IS your horse in that if you want to you could take him back. However, if someone takes a horse on full loan, with no agreement about the owner using the horse, then I think it's only fair to change that to a share agreement if both parties are happy. So, I think if you want to leave him with her, and she does't want to change from a full loan to an agreement where you share and have use of him for a day a week, then you should just leave well alone.
She's presumably paid all his expenses while he's been with her, she loves him to bits and to be fair, she might just want to retain full say over him, as she has had in the past. To be honest, this is why I parted ownership with just one horse that I had on loan. His loaner loved him to bits, cared for him at least as well as I could, he was very happy and it was working great. I just sat down one day and thought it out, I was never going to be able to have him back full-time, she would have been devastated to lose him, he would have been disrupted by the change... so I wrote a change of ownership letter and gave it to her.

 

[Tinypony]

The loaner has full loan, and has had that for years. You can change that by taking the horse back, but you can't change it to a share agreement unless she agrees.
I hope you have something in writing by the way...

 

[littlelottie]

[ QUOTE ]
I cant believe the loaner of your horse told you that they didnt need your help! I'm not suprised you were upset! I would definately take him on one day a week, hover much this will rock the boat- he is yours and you should have some input into his life etc. Does she pay absolutely everything for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Shadowmonkey. It sounds silly but it was so out of the blue I just couldn't say anything and it was only when I put the phone down I burst into tears. It was how they said it like it was their decision and that was final. But yes they do pay everything, well I pay for his insurance every month. I was especially suprised as I had just paid £700 for a brand new saddle to be hand made and was hoping I'd get some use of it lol!! I did offer to pay towards his keep but they just keep putting me off and putting me off. I suppose in hindsight it was sort of a way at keeping me at arms lenght and more on 'their terms' at a guess?

 

[hadfos]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello

I think I would be exactly the same as you but then I can understand both sides. It sounds like you have found the perfect loaner for your horse and that she cares for him deeply, so much so she doesnt want you involved anymore. I understand fully that you had to put him on loan but I dont think that I personnally could have done it. I think I would have rather sold him knowing he had a wonderful home as I wouldnt like to share my horse with anyone.
At the end of the day he is YOUR horse and if you want to take a part in his care etc then its ultimately up to you so you need to be firm. Of course theres a risk she may turn round and say she wants him 100% of the time or nothing. Did you have a written agreement when she took him on stating it was a share agreement or full time loan?
Good luck I really hope you sort something out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cant add anymore than that really!!!!Other than that.....IT is still my horse and you will do as i say,lol!!!!Just me!!!Couldnt bare somebody taking over my lad like that though!!

 

[Tinypony]

Well, the girl in question has had him on full loan for 3 years, paying all except insurance...
I suppose at the end of the day it might end up call my bluff - but I'm not sure who's bluff would be called. You say he's your horse and you want to start to pay more and have the full use and care of him 2 days a week. She says she isn't prepared to loan him under those conditions (that's what I might say with the horse I have on loan). So she says OK - take him back. Then what?
You don't sound as if you have a proper loan agreement. Who pays for things like saddles should be set out clearly. If you paid for the saddle and you aren't using it, take it back and sell it, or offer her the chance to buy it maybe.

 

[littlelottie]

No there is nothing in writing expect a signed agreement that she is the loaner and that was because my insurance wanted it. I did say I would pay for vets bills and I didn't mind paying for the saddle as the old one had started to rub and at the end of the day I want whats best for him. She has full use of everything I've ever had for him, tack, rugs, equipment etc although I know she likes to buy bits and pieces as you do.

I know what you mean about it may end up call my bluff, that's what I want to avoid if I can. If it came to me having him back full time then I could but as I say I think she's good for him doing things like schooling and lots of riding etc where as these days I'm just a happy hacker.

 

[Tinypony]

Then can I make a quiet suggestion? Leave well alone and see if you can find a share with another owner and horse for yourself. You obviously miss your horse dreadfully, but you can't really take him back full time. I'm sure he's as happy with her as she is with him, so you've done a great job of finding someone to care for him when you couldn't. I'm not saying forget him, but why not add another horse to your horsey "family"?
I need a lightweight, experienced and kind happy hacker to share one of mine if you're interested - but I bet you're not in Kent... sigh...

 

[ajones]

how old is she now still 14 ? she'll have important exams coming up soon so put it across that way so not to rock the boat too much. remember at the end of the day its your horse dont forget that.

 

[littlelottie]

Thanks for your advice Tinypony and your kind offer but I don't want to share another horse. I've had him for 13 years since he was a baby - he is my baby lol!! I did briefly think about going to a riding school once a week for a lesson but as I say its him I really want to be involved with and not just the riding but the grooming, mucking out etc

Thanks angharad - no she is 18 now and at college but her mum is really horsey and is really involved with helping her out.

 

[Hullabaloo]

I've been on the other side of the fence when I loaned a horse when the owner broke her ankle. We had a loan agreement and everything was fine - she came to see the horse whenever she wanted. When she started riding again she wanted to have lessons on her horse, which I agreed to but it became a nightmare as we both wanted to do different things. She wanted the horse unfit as she was nervous of her, but I was competing her and she would let the horse do what she wanted and she acted as if she was doing me a favour, despite the fact that I was paying all the bills. In the end I gave the horse back, partly because I realised she wasn't the horse for me, but mainly because the arrangement was never going to work. I bought my own horse after that rather than get into that situation again.
After that experience I would only loan a horse if the owner was not sharing the care and riding with me - in my experience it just doesn't work. I'm not suggesting you would behave like that girl, but I think even with a reasonable owner I would find it difficult.
Sorry - I know that's not what you want to hear. It is worth talking things through with the loaner, but I can appreciate her point of view and in her position wouldn't agree either.

 

[littlelottie]

No I appreciate your input Hullabaloo and it's always interesting to hear differents points of view I may not have thought of. Out of interest did your loan agreement say she was going to start riding him when she was well or what that a suprise for you? I can understand what you mean - a case of 'too many cooks spoil the broth' eh.

Many moons ago I did have horse on loan myself so I do have every empthay for the situation, hence why I'm not just going in like a bull in a china shop lol!

 

[Hullabaloo]

Our original agreement was for 6 months so she could decide what to do when her ankle had healed. At the end of the six months we agreed to extend the loan (I offered to buy the horse but she didn't want to sell) but she never produced another agreement, despite frequent prompting, and I was left feeling quite vulnerable that she could then take the horse back at any time. Because we didn't have an agreement I felt it would be difficult for me to refuse to let her ride the horse and she seemed to assume it was her right to ride when she wanted as it was her horse.
This owner was a very difficult person to deal with - I think she was very spoilt and used to getting her own way. Maybe with a more reasonable person the arrangement would work, but personally I'd steer clear now.

 

[Ahrena]

Just wanted to say I think you're VERY considerate, and that your loanee is lucky to have you as the owner.

But..I think at the end of the day he's your horse. If she doesn't want to share him I think you should find another sharer because like I said, he's your horse, you've had him 13 years, why should you not get enjoyment of him because your loaner doesn't want to share him? I understand her point of view, and I know when I had a loan I wouldn't have wanted to start sharing, but then maybe find someone else to share your boy with you?

 

[littlelottie]

Ah thanks very much Ahrena for that, at the moment I feel like the wicked witch!!

 

[Tiffany]

She now loans him rather than shares him, she obviously thinks the world of him and she's got his best interests at heart. Unless you go back to sharing I can understand why she would be so protective and upset. Having said that he is your horse and she shouldn't forget that!! I do also think you need to have a contract with photos of horse, dates of agreement signed by both of you and what she can and can't do with him and what she pays for. If you had a horse on loan would you be happy with owner being around every week?

 

[chestnut cob]

It's a difficult one. I would say it's your horse and you need to stand your ground. Write up a new contract including details of the days you want to do and ask her to sign it, say it superscedes any previous ones. Then she's contractually obliged. The horse belongs to you so she needs to remember that.

I personally wouldn't ask my loaners if I could ride my boy, but if I wanted to I would go up the wall if they wouldn't let me. He would be coming straight back home if that was the case. You need to meet with them or explain everything in an email.

 

[littlelottie]

Hi Tiffany, yes I understand where she's coming from and I don't want to upset her. Honestly I wouldn't have minded when I loaned a horse (for 5 years) if the owner wanted to ride once a week. As it was she came up to see him whenever she wanted to and was always very happy with how he was looked after. She never wanted to ride him, he was on loan for several years before I had him and for 2 years after me until he had an accident and was sadly PTS.

Thanks Chestnut Cob. I know what you mean - if I had advertised for full loan right from the start with no question of riding and they moved him to their yard then i think it would be a bit out of the blue for me to want to ride now but it seems a bit different with us starting off a sharing and it evolving into something more. Maybe it's not different but it sort of feels it to me - hard to explain in writing!

 

[Smash]

[ QUOTE ]
now but it seems a bit different with us starting off a sharing and it evolving into something more. Maybe it's not different but it sort of feels it to me - hard to explain in writing!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the problem with not having a contract - the lack of defined terms and conditions. I can see both sides, but a contract would be in both of your interests, including how much of a a notice period must given to any requested change in the loan agreement.

There's no room for pussy-footing around with loans - everyone needs to know where they stand to avoid bad feeling and crossed wires.