Help! New horse VERY resistant. Pain or behaviour? (long post!)

MissP

MissP

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Hi if anyone has any ideas for me I'd be really grateful. :) My new horse HAS gone incredibly sour v quickly.

I bought him 3 weeks ago. When I tried him, he was nice to hack and jump (did small sj and xc). Schooling he was a bit grumpy, but started coming round for me. He went v nicely for his previous owner and I took the gamble to buy him with a 5 star vetting, as I felt sure he just needed to come round to a new person.

He seemed sweet. First week I hacked him only and he seemed happy and took it all in his stride - went out in company and alone ok. Did a short simple school and he did as asked, in canter transition his ears went back but he is 6 so I put this down to him finding balance of the move harder.

He was nervous when first at new yard, and made a fuss about grooming but ok with softer brush. Noticed he was boxwalking the first week. He seems to be settled in ok with the herd - he has 12 hrs turnout with 4 others. Its a nice quiet yard and he has longer turnout than before.

Had his backed check (routine) - no issues found on back although she did think his sacral joint might be tipped, so did a little work on that. He had a day's rest and then was hacked the next - he seemed happy. He then had 5 days off as I had a holiday prebooked. When I came back, he hacked fine that first day but after that, he showed first signs of being grumpy out hacking...

He came with a saddle which I had checked and the saddler says it's ok, but not it's not 100% perfect (17.5 Wintech - she thought maybe slightly long ...although he is 15.3). Unfortunately when master saddler came out, this was when his playing up increased. He went really badly in the school - ears back and going stiff and awkward in trot and canter...to the point she asked me if I had had him vetted. :( He was better in the field than school, but didn't seem right. So at that point, I had back lady out again (she was due anyway as she wanted to see him again after last time). She found his back was fine but a few tight patches elsewhere which she thought was because he is carrying himself in a tense way when ridden. Showed her how he is when ridden (in the wintech) and he was worse still, in canter transition now kicking out and throwing in a little buck. Stiff and ears back. However, absolutely fine to lunge with or without saddle. He was v grumpy even on the floor to handle though. Tried another rider getting on to see if it made a difference. She's a confident calm rider - he was very resistant again ears back, tense, head up. She said his back felt alive!

So we agreed best to get vet out (back specialist didn't do any treatment BTW). At this point, I'm thinking ulcer, SI pain, kissing spine??? Vet came out today and checked the horse. He says he is a changed horse to the one he saw at the vetting. He was fine to tack up (he has never showed girthiness on tacking up). The moment I got on he was ears back, throwing head to side, very very tense. Only did walk and he was very resistant (he doesn't outright stop but is v hesitant and body language is 'stop now or I'll have you off'). Vet thinks it is a behavioural issue - that he has learned at some point in his life how to try it on and get away with it. Hoping to have old owners out this week to get their opinion and see how he is with them - might help see if it is a behavioural thing.

Initially, my gut was that he must be in pain - no horse is that bad for no reason. However, putting him back in the field today, he was walking along with me (headcollar and rope) and he went from ears forward walking to gate to ripping a big chunk out my coat in a split second - I saw no warning at all. So now I'm wondering if it is a dominance/behavioural issue?

He's having two weeks rest, to give him the benefit of the doubt about any back pain, and I'll check with the vet whether its ok for the therapist to loosen those tight patches during that time.

My question is - has anyone had similar experiences? Does this sound like a physical or mental problem?

As you can probably guess, I'm very worried - this isn't the horse I thought I was buying. :'(

Oh and one last silly thing - someone suggested he could need a sheepskin numnah? Not tried that yet. Not to keen to get back on at the moment TBH.

Thanks x
 
Sounds mainly physical to me. Stomach, gut and feet would be where I would look first, those are often related as well. A change of yard can be stressful and possibly aggravated problems. Also good advice above as these problems may not be new.
 
Goldenstar said:
Agree and do it pronto .
And while I am saying this is what I think , please consider why the vet who did the vetting would wish to think the issue was behavioural .
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^^^^^ these two suggestions!!! defo!!

Bloods and defo why would your vet point to behavioural issues straight off?.......
 
I would also get the bloods tested - your vet should have taken blood samples during the 5 stage vetting so you can ask for those to be tested. They will show up if the horse had been given any medication that might have now worn off, prior to you trying him and the vetting (ie, bute).
 
Goldenstar said:
Agree and do it pronto .
And while I am saying this is what I think , please consider why the vet who did the vetting would wish to think the issue was behavioural .
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Hi. yep am considering getting bloods done. £250+VAT, so I want to be sure I think it's worth going down that route.

M'mmm v interesting point about the vet's reaction. I had not looked at it like that. :-/ Seems that in this situation it is so hard to know who to trust. Would a second vet's opinion be a good idea?
 
My impression is 'Behavioural problems' is used by some vets and owners when there is nothing obvious they can see. Google equine ulcers and hind gut acidosis signs.
 
Thanks for everyone's ideas so far. I should say too, the vet has mentioned running the bloods as a possibility, so there is some acknowledgement from him it could be physical. Ulcers are on my 'hit list' yep.
 
Sounds like badly fitting saddle and sore back. Is he safe enough to ride bareback after 2 week off?! Or maybe ask saddler for a saddle to try / different gullet / girth/ pad? Or try lunging with no tack just head collar see how that goes and then see if different with saddle. My five yr old is always v keen to have tack on but 6 months ago put his ears back at his saddle and snapped at me. Every one I asked said ignore it/ smack him. It turned out saddle was pinching shoulders. Saddler advised acovallo pad to keep saddle up off shoulder. Happy pony ever since. Hope you work through this it always takes time with a new horse to settle and sort out tack etc. am sure will be worth it.
 
small said:
Sounds like badly fitting saddle and sore back. Is he safe enough to ride bareback after 2 week off?! Or maybe ask saddler for a saddle to try / different gullet / girth/ pad? Or try lunging with no tack just head collar see how that goes and then see if different with saddle. My five yr old is always v keen to have tack on but 6 months ago put his ears back at his saddle and snapped at me. Every one I asked said ignore it/ smack him. It turned out saddle was pinching shoulders. Saddler advised acovallo pad to keep saddle up off shoulder. Happy pony ever since. Hope you work through this it always takes time with a new horse to settle and sort out tack etc. am sure will be worth it.
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Thanks. Bare back ... um...not sure I would dare based on today! Could be brave I guess :-/ . Re saddle - you could be right. It's frustrating as I was trying a new one out but with his resistance I couldn't tell whether it was a good fit - seemed worse! Maybe I could have the saddler out after his break? Odd that it started after 5 days off though, not when he'd been under the saddle a lot, although that's not to rule out. I want to get him one that's a perfect asap obviously. Unhappy with current situation. Also, I tried at the weekend lunging with head collar with and without saddle (no rider). He was fine with the saddle then. Confusing. If it is pain, he seems to only feel it with the weight of a rider on him. I'm just under 9 stone BTW!
 
I'd be starting off by reviewing the saddle and teeth. Is there a difference in his going on the lunge bitted to when in a head collar? Saddle wise I'd try bareback if the horse wasn't too big moving or reactive. I'd also be begging and borrowing other saddles (that look to adequately fit) to see if there's a difference. It would be worth getting his teeth done anyway tbh.

I'd also try a bit of tough riding in case he's just a bit of a begger. A set of spurs and a bit of positivity could be all it takes to convince him he can manage a bit of work in a new place.

Hacking in company is, IMO, the best way to find your feet and develop some understandings between you and a new horse whilst avoiding too much pressure or too many battles.

The horse may well not be right, but if its not it could be a long road getting to the bottom of it, so I wouldn't panic yet and start off checking out the more easily sortable possible problems.
 
Thanks Flame. His teeth were done 3 mo ago so should be ok. Good idea to try lunging with a bit though :). The spurs - eek. I can see why you suggest it, but if you saw how he was today... it's not a lazy defiance it's a 'ready to explode' one. I think I might end up in a tree! I appreciate that I do may to call his bluff at some point though.
 
nuttychestnut said:
Sounds like my horse prior to ulcer treatment. Good luck.
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Thanks nuttychesnut. Interested to hear if yours also got to the point that he/she refused to be ridden at all and got unpredictable on the ground? And what grade ulcers they were? Also if yours was still fine on the lunge? Thanks x
 
Well he got to the point where every time I rode I ended up on the floor! He was pretty hot to handle from the ground. He stable walked all time he was in, didn't like to be separated from the heard plus he never had normal droppings. His ridden behaviour could have also been due to OCD in his stifles but since his ulcers have been treated he has been an angel!
I never thought his behaviour was fully down to pain as only 5 at the time, I thought I could ride him through it but I really should have listened to what he was telling me.
He never showed any pain when being tacked up, never tried to bit when girthed ect.
On the lunge he wasn't so bad, but just tried to run away from me all the time!
Looking back he was worse when he had pressure put onto him, such as longer sessions, being kicked on when I didn't think he was working forward. His behaviour was at its worse in canter.
If you are not really sure I would get the vet to give him a full work up, checking that there is no under lying lameness or pain. I would fully recommend a scope with the behaviour you says he is showing, especially as yours was such a saint to start with. If a horse is taking the mick they normally nap a little or throw a small buck/bunny hop in, they don't try to hurt you. I would be extremely concerned that your horse's behaviour on the ground has changed so much, I wouldn't expect that from a horse pushing the boundaries. I would say that he is asking for your help, but I could be wrong!
 
Sorry forgot to say he had grade 3 out of 4 ulcers and tested positive for hind gut ulcers. One month of Gastroguard & a few other meds, and 90% of them had fully healed. He is now of succeed for his hind ulcers, I think it is working due to the way he leaves his stable in the morning, no more box walking for loose, watery droppings!
 
I think when horses have grumbling pain/discomfort they feel vulnerable so can become over reactive. They are sort of on hyper alert for dangers and less able to cooperate and object more strongly as well as trying to protect areas that might be sore or produce soreness.
 
MissP said:
Thanks Flame. His teeth were done 3 mo ago so should be ok. Good idea to try lunging with a bit though :). The spurs - eek. I can see why you suggest it, but if you saw how he was today... it's not a lazy defiance it's a 'ready to explode' one. I think I might end up in a tree! I appreciate that I do may to call his bluff at some point though.
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That doesn't always mean much though. My horse's teeth had been done 2 weeks before I bought him but by someone who isn't even trained, just calls themselves a dentist. His teeth were AWFUL, really really bad. I got my own EDT out after about a month because he was difficult and fussy in his mouth, and he needed a lot of work doing (that should have been done by the first dentist, if they'd known what they were actually doing). So it wouldn't be a bad call to get someone else out to check.
 
Also - how much grass is he getting and how good is it? Mine generally v sweet but sharp horse is now on a small starvation paddock because when he gets too much good grass, he turns into a fire breathing dragon. If half of HHO had seen him last week, they'd have all been yelling that he was tense and resistant so he needed his saddle, teeth and back checked, that only ulcers, KS, whatever else could cause that much tension... However, he just can't take too much grass. It's no different to giving too much hard feed. After a few days on a starvation paddock, he is back to his normal, sweet self and working nicely again. Something to consider.
 
chestnut cob said:
Also - how much grass is he getting and how good is it? .
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thanks chestnut cob. That is another thing to consider! Mine is getting 12 hrs grazing per day. The fields don't have that much fresh grass left though - just enough growth to keep nibbling away. He does get two portions of field mix/chaff/bran too, and haylage at night. And now also a nut ball to reduce boxwalking (hard feed reduced to compensate for nut ball). So tricky as if was e.g. ulcers, reduced grazing will make it worse. I'm in such a pickle trying to unpick this! I hope the old owners can help us work out which options are more likely.
 
Agree - get the bloods run quickly as possible.

(a) have you had his back checked by a proper vet referred physio? IME they are usually the best ones to pick up subtle changes to the back.

(b) Did you get x-rays done at the vetting?

(c) consider having a full lameness work up. Back issues which are resolved by a back treatment but then seem to sour again are often a result of arthritic pain. Is your horse changing his weight frequently from right to left hind? When you watch him walk up is there a noticeable hip hike? Or do his back feet land nice and equally and evenly? Or is there a slight rotation or evidence of uneven landing?

It could be a multitude of things, but this is where I would start.

Many horses have their hocks or coffin joints injected prior to sale and would sail through a vetting as a result, but may have underlying arthritis. Ulcers may be another but I wouldn't start there until I'd ruled out his limbs first - not going forward, back pain and general grumpiness would all point to something physical in the first instance.
 
MissP said:
thanks chestnut cob. That is another thing to consider! Mine is getting 12 hrs grazing per day. The fields don't have that much fresh grass left though - just enough growth to keep nibbling away. He does get two portions of field mix/chaff/bran too, and haylage at night. And now also a nut ball to reduce boxwalking (hard feed reduced to compensate for nut ball). So tricky as if was e.g. ulcers, reduced grazing will make it worse. I'm in such a pickle trying to unpick this! I hope the old owners can help us work out which options are more likely.
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I would review his whole diet and management looking at it from his POV. I know it means more grass but could he be out 24/7 for eg? Box walking is a sign he may not be happy stabled and that = stress which can = ulcers which then = more stress due to discomfort. It wont be any help on his state of mind, legs and body either. If he has a back problem as well he really is trying to cope with a lot of stuff.
 
Do you have to specify screening for pain relief and sedatives or is this part of the 5* vetting protocol and retest?
 
amandap said:
Do you have to specify screening for pain relief and sedatives or is this part of the 5* vetting protocol and retest?
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You have to specify so I would look for more unusual forms of pain relief such as metacam as well as bute or danilon .
 
anuvb said:
Agree - get the bloods run quickly as possible.

(a) have you had his back checked by a proper vet referred physio? IME they are usually the best ones to pick up subtle changes to the back.

(b) Did you get x-rays done at the vetting?

Hiya. Haven't had a vet referred physio out yet no. Vet has said not to ride for 2 weeks and see how he is after that as a starting point, but after that I'll ask him what he thinks are next steps/referral. The vetting didn't include x-rays no - is was a standard 5 star. :)
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Kelpie said:
What have the prior owners said? Can they come ride him in his old tack to see how he is for them?
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They seem surprised. They are hopefully coming over this weekend to see how he is with them and I'll ask them if they can bring the other saddle he was ridden in too. Nice of them to come and it might help narrow things down :D Thanks for everyone's interest and advice. Will let you know how things progress.
 
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