Help Please! Shiverer passes 5 stage vetting!

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Grey Lady

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I am a very experienced horse person who wanted to buy a horse to train to Prix St Georges level dressage with the view to sell on. Normally I would trust my own instincts on soundness etc if purchasing the horse for myself to keep, but this time I had to be sure that I had taken every precaution to buy a sound horse.
Having found a nice horse. which had clean xrays, I had the horse 5 stage vetted. I did have a concern about a hind leg that seemed to step short sometimes, which I mentioned to the vet and during the flexion the horse held this hind leg up higher and longer than normal, and it shivered, but the vet did not bother too much as the horse turned a tight circle and stepped back okay. I had never had any experience of a shiverer so I was none the wiser.
I bought the horse and 5 days later my Farrier came out to shoe the horse and said, ''This horse is a shiverer''.
I contacted the vet who carried out the vetting, and he said that he had since discussed with colleagues, about the leg and agreed it would probably resolve when he was fit and muscled up.
To cut a long story short I did this and things didn't get any better, in fact they got worse. My vet, who could see immediately that I had a mild shiverer advised me to contact the vet who did the vetting and he then referred it to the VDS who wrote that there was no case to answer, even though the vet admitted to questioning the hind leg during the vetting.
Has anyone ever had a shiverer go through a 5 stage vetting?
I was under the illusion that a shiverer no matter how mild would not pass a vetting. Has anyone got any advice, as I stand to lose an awful lot of money.
 
Here are some sites which might assist you with your question. They are full of peoples comments and more importantly experience with respect to your question.
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=ps....,cf.osb&fp=dd7bc993902da637&biw=1302&bih=679

As for the horse getting better with work, according to this website the horse will just continue to deteriorate if it is worked and it is suggested that rest is the best solution.http://horsehints.org/Shivers.htm

I am surprised that the vet passed the horse, and I would have thought that this would constitute negligence on his part to carry out a five stage vetting correctly. That said I am not entirely surprised. My wobblers horse (another nuerological condition) was seen by a McTimoney Chiropractor a few weeks before he was PTS with late onset Wobblers/CVM. He was declared a grade 3 to Grade 4 case. When I said to her that he was swinging his leg very wide on turning and was even slightly ataxic when she visited she declared him free of any neuro deficits and insisted he was not a wobblers case. Hmmmm.

Read the paragraph 'diseases that mimic shivers' before reaching any conclusions and if necessary get a second opinion from a hospital that deals with neuro cases, my horse went to Liverpool University Hospital for his diagnosis.
 
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VOILA!!!http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=259762 :) :) :) :)

Grey Lady you owe me a drink :)

Re: VDS Veterinary Defence Society, Vets negligence Insurers ???
VDS Veterinary Defence Society, Vets negligence Insurers ???
Has anyone had any kind of positive outcome via VDS ???
Success stories ???? and any not so successful stories too ???

Thanks Guys xxx
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I have!
I had a horse 5 stage vetted and passed. Horse turned out to be a mild shiverer.
My vet was very apologetic that he missed it (in his defence it was a mild case.)
The VDS had to get involved obviously and they sent an independent vet to come and examine the horse and he then confirmed the diagnosis.
I found them extremely professional.
I got the full amount back from my vet that I paid for the horse.
 
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Not a shiverer, but a closely related disorder - stringhalt.
I purchased my horse a year ago, he flew through a 5 stage vetting for dressage (unlike yours who you questioned at the time).
Got him home and within the month he was showing an occassional mild stringhalt action which has progressively become slightly more pronounced and consistent.
I don't have a leg to stand on (excuse the pun) and even if I did I would not persue as other than the stringhalt the horse is very nice.

In your shoes however it may be worth taking legal advice. The only thing that did make me raise my eyebrows slightly is someone looking for a GP horse who cannot recognise a shiver? But then I suppose you have to put your trust in a vet.
 
Thank you applecart14 for your help. I have searched the internet for all sorts of help on the subject and have already seen the information you have posted for me. Many thanks for your help anyway.
I guess I am just hoping that someone has had a similar experience with a good outcome and can give me some advise as to what to do next. :)
 
Been there! Done that! I purchased a horse in March 2011 that was a shiverer and passed a 5 stage vetting. Vetting not done by my vet but another one from their practice. I had raised a concern re the hind leg before, during and after the vetting, but the vet assured me it was nothing to worry about and was just him being a pathetic TB! To cut long story short, within six weeks horse lame and shivering on other hind as well. My farrier spotted it immediately.
Sued the vets through VDS - it took six weeks and I got my purchase money back, but none of the costs of keeping him etc. The vet did admit he made a mistake and my vet said to sue them so they were completely on my side. Has really knocked me as I have owned and competed horses for over 30 years and have never had anything like this happen to me before and I hope never again.
 
No problem Grey Lady. May I ask what you plan to do with the horse now? If you have loss of use would you be covered as it looks like the horse shouldn't have passed the vetting - surely this would make the insurance null and void??? The underwriter agrees to insure on what he is told by the vet and that the vet has passed the horse as fit for purpose. Am I right on this?

Huntley - just out of interest what happened to your horse in the end? If you had it put down would you also get a payout from your horse insurance being as the insurance would have been void insomuch that if the vet had noted the horse was a shiverer presumably this would have been excluded from your policy. Did you follow that? Not sure I have explained myself very well.

I am sorry for your troubles. It is awful what has happened to you both. But I am really curious, where do you stand on the legal side of loss of use/loss of animal if you wanted the horses pts?
 
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Thank you for your story ihatework.

Having never had any experience of a Shiverer is exactly why I asked for a 5 stage vetting, which is suppose to protect you from purchasing a horse with a problem you have had no experience of. If the symptoms were not obvious to a vet, then why would someone who rides at PSG/Inter 1 recognise them, having never had a shiverer before. :D
 
OMG, Huntley it sounds like the exact version of my story. How did you go about sueing VDS, did you use a solicitor and if so who? The vet who did our vetting was not my vet and he contacted the VDS who months later contacted us and admitted that the vet question marked the leg but that he was not negligent and that they would not be paying up.

My own vet, who is on my side, thought this was a standard response

Any help from you would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
Applecart14 - I did not pursue it with my insurers as he was not covered for loss of use and my vets were happy for me to sue them. He actually went back to the previous owner who I knew well - to be honest it was that or have him put down. My insurance would not have paid out if I had him put down as they would argue somebody would be able to hack him etc.
Greylady - I would have a strong word with your vet. I did not use a solicitor, but would have if my vet had not backed my claim. There are equine lawyers on this forum - I spoke to one of them who was very helpful, but cannot remember who! Just ask on here. Vets are insured just for things like this. If you feel you are not getting anywhere with your vet, get a second opinion and you can approach the RCVS. If you want pm me and I will give you my number and talk you through the whole process. I think you have just as good a claim as I had, but your vet must admit he made a mistake.
 
Thanks for your kind words applecart14.

Not sure where we stand on loss of use side of things because we are trying to prove that a horse passed the vetting when it was not fit for purpose, which means it would have been wrongly insured. I try not to think about what will happen to the horse because he has such a huge personality and it is not his fault that he is trapped in a defective body, he is so intelligent. Life can be so cruel! :(
 
huntley said:
Applecart14 - I did not pursue it with my insurers as he was not covered for loss of use and my vets were happy for me to sue them. He actually went back to the previous owner who I knew well - to be honest it was that or have him put down. My insurance would not have paid out if I had him put down as they would argue somebody would be able to hack him etc.
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Oh I see now.
 
applecart14 - the issue was that the vet did not recognise he was a shiverer and made no mention of it on the certificate so I do not know how an insurer would see that.
 
If you are a member of anything like riding club or BHS, they all have legal cover with membership, should get free legal advice and or legal representation from them. As you have described the vets will just wing it to there insurers and will take a bit of time but should have a positive outcome. If you arnt a member then a solictors letter to the vets will start the ball rolling.
 
I am new to writing on forums so I am learning what you can and can't do as I go along. After messaging Huntley I now realise I can send messages to other people. So thank you again for your help and I will give it a go if Huntley can't get us on the right track.
 
Hi Guilding - Many thanks for your advice. I am a member of British Dressage and did seek the free legal advice but was not given much hope.
 
Slightly off topic but I have been led to beieive that shivering is not considered to be an unsoundness on the continent..... is this true or not?.
 
Spook said:
Slightly off topic but I have been led to beieive that shivering is not considered to be an unsoundness on the continent..... is this true or not?.
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Whether continent or UK I suppose it depends on your definition of unsoundness.
For shivers/stringhalt etc I (and my vet) would class it as an abnormality rather than an unsoundness. For instance, my horse has a mild stringhalt but is 110% sound on the hardest of flexions.

Having shivers/stringhalt does not automatically mean a horse cannot perform competition wise to a decent level. I used to work for an international SJ'er and he had a grade A with shivers. Equally there are many dressage horses out there performing/comping with these neurological disorders.

A 5 stage vetting isn't a straight pass or fail. It is a vet's opinion on if a horse is suitable for the purpose intended. The purpose of the 5* vetting is really to give the purchaser an accurate evaluation of the horse at that moment in time. From there it is the purchasers decision to proceed or not.

With regard to the OP. For all we know the purchased horse may be suitable for higher level dressage even with the shiver - however that is not the point. The vet in question had the gait abnormailty highlighted to them and did not provide the professional advise they were being paid for. This led to the purchaser buying the horse without being aware of full facts and implications and as such, IMO the vet was negligent (if the story given is accurate).

So my advise to the OP would be seek legal advise and sue the 5* vet
 
Thank you to everybody who has replied to my posting and given advice. You have all been very kind. I will try to keep updating you on what we do about it and how it is all going.

Again many thanks to you all! :)
 
The vet is definitely negligent in not picking that up, especially if he has admitted questioning and discussing it with his colleagues! If he had missed it completely or there was no evidence on the day of shivers then thats a different story, but there was and he failed to tell you. I'd definitely pursue sueing the vet.

However.......I'm surprised by the people saying about PTS! He may not be suitable to go on to GP level dressage but it doesn't mean he's not capable of getting to a high standard. Even if this isn't with the OP. I'm sure he's not resigned to just being a happy hack because of this. My horse has mild stringhalt and hasn't ever been lame through this and is a good allrounder. :)
 
stringhalt is different to shivering though. Shivers is generally progressive and the only one I've had any day to day contact with got progressively worse until he collapsed with a rider on board. He wasn't the sort of horse to take retirement so he was PTS. Stringhalt generally doesn't progress to this degree so wouldn't normally suggest PTS as an option.
 
Do remember that vets DO NOT pass or fail a horse at a vetting. You tell them what you want it for, they tell you what they find wrong with it and then the final decission is up to you.

Did you advise the vet what you had planned for the horse?
 
I bought a mare that turned out to be unsuitable for the job I asked the vet to vet her for, the problem was also picked up by the farrier. I got an independent vetting who agreed with the farrier. My insurance had free solicitor advise at the time and they successfully got me my money, travel costs back. I still have the mare, cost me loads trying to get her right but only ever did low milage endurance and happy hacking. My 11 year old niece rides her now, I would have preferred not to have had her, but once she was here what do you do? She,s part of the family now.
 
Tnavas said:
Do remember that vets DO NOT pass or fail a horse at a vetting. You tell them what you want it for, they tell you what they find wrong with it and then the final decission is up to you.

Did you advise the vet what you had planned for the horse?
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A shiverer is a shiverer and should not have passed the vetting for a dressage horse it is very unlikely that the vet did not know what the horse was for.
OP you will have to sue them just do it it's not personal and it's why vets carry insurance.
However you will have to inform your insurance company you insured him under the misapprehension that he was fine I dont know what line they will take but you will need to tell them.
Poor you and poor horse Its just awful when the dream all goes horribly wrong.
 
Tnavas said:
Do remember that vets DO NOT pass or fail a horse at a vetting. You tell them what you want it for, they tell you what they find wrong with it and then the final decission is up to you.

Did you advise the vet what you had planned for the horse?
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Yes the vet was advised what the horse was wanted for and it is written on the vetting certificate.
 
riverdance said:
I bought a mare that turned out to be unsuitable for the job I asked the vet to vet her for, the problem was also picked up by the farrier. I got an independent vetting who agreed with the farrier. My insurance had free solicitor advise at the time and they successfully got me my money, travel costs back. I still have the mare, cost me loads trying to get her right but only ever did low milage endurance and happy hacking. My 11 year old niece rides her now, I would have preferred not to have had her, but once she was here what do you do? She,s part of the family now.
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I am glad you managed to get your money back but as you say it would have been better not to have had to go through all the heartache in the first place!
 
Reading your post it seems that the vet had probably no idea what shivering was and had never seen it before rather than admit his lack of experience he advised the purchase, then followed this with incorrect information regarding ongoing treatment.
I think you do have a good case for compensation, insurance companies will often pay out rather than take it further if you have evidence that is indisputable, which I would think in this case you do.
 
Goldenstar said:
A shiverer is a shiverer and should not have passed the vetting for a dressage horse it is very unlikely that the vet did not know what the horse was for.
OP you will have to sue them just do it it's not personal and it's why vets carry insurance.
However you will have to inform your insurance company you insured him under the misapprehension that he was fine I dont know what line they will take but you will need to tell them.
Poor you and poor horse Its just awful when the dream all goes horribly wrong.
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Thank you for your reply to my OP. The vet did know the horse was to be used for dressage. We have been in touch with the vet and it is the vets insurers that we are fighting with at the moment.
 
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