help please - Spinning horse!

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sare_bear

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Don't often post, but desperately need some advice. :)

A little history: Got this horse newly broken from Ireland. Rode him for a year and a half just about ready to do his first BE, but just wasnt right. Anyway had PSD diagnosed in front. Vets felt it may be genetic weakness and unlikely to recover. Had 2 years out and started walk work last year. He hacked out on his own and apart from being traffic shy, which he has been since day 1 we managed 3 weeks walking work before being kicked in the field.

6 weeks off he was still not 100% sound so turned him away for the winter.

Now starting again (get the picture :rolleyes:). However, this time he is out hacking on his own as usual (billy no mates! :p) down a hardcore track so don't have to deal with traffic, but he has started spinning if he sees something he doesn't like and p**sing off in other direction. I know he is effectively a baby so have been turning him around letting him look at horse eating object, big pats and asking to walk on. Problem is it is starting to become a habit and having never done it before I don't know how to stop him doing it. He is very quick! Happily tootling along to find next minute we are 180 degrees round in full tilt trot or canter!! He is normally very easy to pull up, but recently he is being pig headidly strong and is then like trying to turn a bus with no power stearing to get back round. Not exactly great for the legs either.

Today after the 4th time of doing it I gave him several smacks to get him going forward in direction I wanted as was getting fed up. There is a limit.

Have hacked out with another horse but he has still done it although not to the same extent. Some times there is a genuine reason ( fly tipping, scary bench), other times I cant see anything. He has been down this track 10 times now so is becoming a little ridiculous!

He was always a little jumpy at noise e.g. birds in hedges, but he would always shoot to the side or forwards for a few steps, but otherwise pretty unflappable.

Any ideas, or anyone else have a horse similar to this.

Sorry this was long, a nice refreshing glass of orange juice and an ice cream if you got this far. :D
 
My 4yr old irish gelding does this, tree stumps, birds, squirrels and wild rubarb are the usual monsters, but with him i think it's just baby behaviour, he is fine unless i hack somewhere i haven't hacked for a few days. I find hacking every day works with mine whether before, after of instead of school work, even if it is just round the block, mine is in light work due to a developing spavin. i think persistance pays off, let him know he is not getting away with it but without making a mountain out of a mole hill, is my only suggestion.
 
I generally would put mine in a full cheek to help with steering and then when they go to spin, I catch it and keep the spinning, then make them spin the other way and then back the way they tried until they no longer want to spin. There is no flapping, hitting or cussing, just if you want to spin, we do it my way!

Usually they get very bored with this and know if they spin, they are in for *a lot* of spinning and work

Mine are all lazy so soon give up this little habit
 
Thanks for the reply.

He is hacked every day as on his 3rd week of road work and most times the same ride.
It is really difficult not to make a mountain out of a mole hill as to begin with, although he spun he wouldnt really take off and was easy to turn around and pat, pat until we were passed. But now he is taking off and just wont turn around and when eventually we do turn I cant get him to stand now, he just does the same again and again, until I put my foot down and say this is not acceptable with a few smacks. I dont want to have to get after him as I would like it to be pleasurable, but it wont be long before I am on the floor!

Had thought about getting off but if I cant hold him, whilst on him then I wont be able to hold him on the ground.

Just not sure why he has suddenly started behaving this way and being scared of his own shadow when he has always being pretty confident. Shall have to try and be more patient with him.
 
Thanks cotswoldSJ.

He is in a full cheek snaffle at the moment. When I try to catch him spinning he just sets his neck against me (a well set 16.3hh thug) and no amount of outside leg or inside hand seemed to get him to turn today. Ended up in the hedge trying to turn!! Will try the spinning if I can. Just trying to not pull too much on his mouth as it is soft and does bruise slightly catching his spinning tricks. He is lazy unless on his way home so hopefully will get bored of going round in circles quickly.
 
My horse used to do this, but he usually always spun round the same way each time, does yours?

I could feel him backing off at whatever object he had taken a dislike to and so really started to block that rein and also used my leg to stop him from spinning, once past scary object, which wasn't really, he had lots of praise.

Do you get a warning of some description before he spins, tenseness, backing off so you could ride him more forward.

My horse also reacted to my voice so often raised my voice at him and told him to stop being silly and this also helped. He did stop doing it before, I think, it can become a habit, although a horse will naturally flee if panicked or frightened.

He has to gain confidence from you to be able to deal with the "nastys" out on hack, but also know that it is not acceptable to run off.

Hitting a horse seldom gets results but I do appreciate that a smack maybe needed if you feel his is taking the mickey.

Maybe try some work on the ground with him.

Good luck.
 
I have one who does exactly what you've described, only she bolts for home and nothing in the world will stop her (not fun)!

She has got much better with time although its not gone. the only way i can curtail her is before she spins around which has taken me ages to master and i sometimes still am not quick enough! i find if i get the feeling of her about to do it, a kick in the ribs and growl is enough for her to think twice. if she does whip round i have to be super quick to whip her back round. have you tried putting your hand down by your leg as if its rearing and turning it back on itself , that way it cant get straight and leg it home as easily?(bad explanation but im sure you get it!)

what would concern me about yours is that its getting a bit of a habit
can you hack anywhere else? or do something else for a bit? if its a routine ride, bright ones often get bored and think its a great game to liven it up!

and until its sorted i wouldnt go anywhere that could be disasterous if it gets out of hand (mine never goes on the road as cant be trusted not to gallop blind home!) so i stick to non trafficed grippy tracks if that makes sense?

i hope that helps a bit anyway
 
I had this problem with madam. A lot of it is genuine lack of confidence, so the most important thing is you keep cool, and don;t bully them about it as it gets quicker the more you make an issue of it ;)

The answer with L was wide hands, and keeping her curved! So either shoulder fore, leg yield, traver etc etc to keep her around a leg and concentrating on me. Wide hands is the big thing though, as you can catch them and prevent the spin. It didnt take L long to work out she couldn't spin, and she got braver about tackling things head on :)

Hope that helps, and good luck. It does get better as they get braver :D
 
Thanks for replies, its nice to know hes not the only one.

S-t, yours sounds way worse with bolting toward home, not much fun. He doesnt normally bolt but certainly this last few days has taken a lot more to pull him up. I am normally so patient, but it is really difficult to find the line now of baby to completely using it as an excuse to head home. Once on a hack fine, four or five episodes now is not enjoyable.

Shark - he sadly doesn't spin the same way. To begin with he did give me some warning but now it is so quick with zero warning. Sorry can you explain again re putting hand by leg as not quite sure i get what you mean. May have to drag OH along on bike with a packet of polos as a reward for no spinning, to try and give him some confidence. Have thought about ground work but if he gets a fright with you leading him, he just shoots sideways and god help you if you are in his way!! Need to try and desensitise him.

Kat - Ur right in that the first few times it happened and with good reason (scary object) I was happy to give him all the time in the world but now as it gets worse not better I feel I am bullying him.
Shall try the wide hands, I have been wide with the inside hand and crossing outside hand over his wither to try and stop him and re-turn.
 
All the advice above is good so not going to add anything to that but just wanted to mention something about the use of your body which I have found to be extremely useful on my mare that spins.

Everyone tells you to ride with hand and leg and so no doubt you are really trying to use the hand and leg on the side they are trying to spin into, and actually if you are anything like me in your desperation you will also try to use your inside hand to pull them back the way you want to go even though you know this won't work!. However, for me my hand and leg don't solve the problem. The most cruical parts are the top of my inner thigh and my stomach muscles. Therefore, when your horse tries to spin for example to the right, forget your hands and leg but really focus on getting the top of your right thigh against the horse to block it. Also really focus on "bearing down" through your stomach (the feeling you get in your stomach when you cough i.e. engaging your stomach muscles, but you must remember to breath at the same time!). I know this sounds all a bit "new age", but it is amazing the power and control that it gives you and the respect you actually get from your horse - but to the outsider you don't look like you are doing anything. The only problem with you, is that your horse does it so quickly therefore it is more difficult to set yourself up, but perhaps think about using your stomach the whole time throughout your hack and this might prevent it on its own. If not, then I just think you need to be ready with your thighs 100% of the time.

Sorry if all sounds a bit complicated but just thought i'd give a different angle for you to think about!
 
Hi supanova.

You are exactly right. I do use my hand and leg to block the spin and pull on inside rein out of desperation!! I shall try using my thigh and stomach muscles that are at present a bit lacking!! Sadly the lack of warning now makes things a little difficult.

Can I just ask in numpty language as am getting slightly confused now, but if:
horse spins to left, to block spin I try and use my outside leg back ( left in this case) to push him back round and outside hand at wither, and (inside hand pulled to inside which does nothing!), or do i open left rein the way he is spinning and use left leg on girth to bend in to spin to block it?? :eek::confused: Think I should be doing the latter but in practice am doing the former, which may not be helping.

Amymay - would love someone to hack with and do have someone once or twice a week where we venture onto roads, but sadly out of 8 people on the yard only one other seems to ride, so makes life a little difficult on that front.
 
I would say if horse spins to left then left leg and left thigh on, left hand firm at wither, right hand relaxed. Either keep head straight or slight flexion to left as shoulder will then go to right. If you try and turn head to right, left shoulder will go the other way (i.e. the way the horse wants to go, but not you!) I think thats right anyway!
 
disagree,sorry! If hes spinning to the left,he'll be dropping his left shoulder. To stop it,you need to bend him left, so open right rein and strong left leg to push him into your outside (right) rein. This will stop the left shoulder leading which is what is needed :D
 
I know its horses for courses but I have to disagree with KatB, but purely based on my own experience.

My horse use to spin to the right ever time so I blocked my right rein held it into the wither and also placed my whip on the right shoulder and touched him with it when ever I felt him backing off. The left rein was marginally shorter but not blocking and both legs applied strongly, it worked for me.

I appreciate that there is no right or wrong way but what works best for the individual horse.
 
Yep completely,but keeping the rein at the wither in my experience doesnt block them! I also had no chance of using a whip with mine,as she'd associate spooky things with being smacked! It is different for different horses though!
 
I didn't smack him with the whip more lay it on his shoulder as a "don't you dare spin on me", it gave him something else to think about and before he knew it we had past the offending item, if I knew what it was:rolleyes:

My other horse spun when a friendly group of metal detectors decided to say hello over the hedge with alien type ear muffs on, by which time we were off it wouldn't matter what I did with my reins, whip or legs I was half in the saddle half way up his neck, how i stopped on lord only knows, when I managed to pull him up , I could feel his heart beating he was scared stiff, took me ages to get him past with another horse leading, we went from a 15.3hh to a 17hh in seconds:D
 
Other thing to bear in mind is to watch how you respond to the little signs and spooks. I have quite a spooky mare; I learnt a lot about her when I had a problem with a particular farrier shoeing her- basically he couldn't; when I went back to the old guy she was fine, and I noticed the difference in the way they reacted to the behaviour. She is a chestnut mare :rolleyes: and I have learnt that you can't "get after her" as she wonders what you are scared of:(. Instead, I am trying a new technique of paying attention the the tiny things, and quietly correcting them. She loves to gawp about, so every time her head swings away from centre, I quietly correct it with hand/leg, and ask her to walk forward; I also am trying mega-hard to avoid nagging at her with my leg all the time, but every time her pace slows from what I asked for, I correct her, but leave her be if she is walking forward correctly. This is really working, so that as soon as I feel her drop her pace a quick squeeze from me reminds her to pay attention. Sometimes she does still spook/spin/freeze, but I can correct it so much quicker now. Before, she used to slop along at her pace, which in effect meant my aids were ignored when I really needed them.

Not sure I've described that well! But basically make sure you aren't letting him off with minor misdemeanours that translate to bigger problems when the pressure increases.
 
Mine does this. It's just a baby unconfident thing.
I can anticipate it now most of the time anyway! If I feel him backing off my leg or his head comes up to look at something I just get hold of him and really push him on, sometimes I wave my whip behind my leg, not hitting him but just making a whoosh noise. This is normally enough for him to not do it!

Occassionally he catches me by surprise and he's dam sharp! Still most of the time I catch him at the 90 degree point and I spin him back and slap him down the right shoulder and trot on ( he always spins to the right)
If I don't catch him quickly and were heading back the way we came at a canter ;). Then I spin him round to the left, slap him on right shoulder then trot him up the road waving my whip and growling. He's fine then and settles down.

However my horse is the sort of horse who responds best to me being firm. Occassionally if he is really scared I let him stand and look but tbh he's looking for me to tell him what to do and he doesn't respond massively well to this method!

My old mare I always had to just make her stand and wait untill she decided she wanted to continue past the scary object but she was a totally different kettle of fish!

I think maybe yours is a bit like mine and is challenging u for leadership? He's a bit insecure and thinks he knows best so tries to bugger off back the way you came. Maybe he needs you to say 'NO, my way! Thank you ;)' take the responsibility away from him and then he will grow in confidence? Some horses are the opposite tho so it's hard to advise!
 
I agree with cotswoldsj on this; you should keep him spinning, if he sets his neck then tap him down the shoulder with your whip and keep him turning at least 10 times.

Once you decide to stop then let him stand and reflect on what has just happened for a minute or so and then quietly ask him to walk on again. If he goes to spin again then repeat. The trouble with growling, kicking and smacking is that the horse doesn't learn anything. He has to choose by himself the 'good' behaviour to truely be cured.

I have used this method on lots of spooky/ nappy horses and I can say it has worked 100% of the time.

Jason Webb also uses this method and he deals with hundreds of problem horses successfully every year.
 
Lots of good advice on this thread but it does show once again that different roads can lead to the same place. :)

One thing I would say though it spinning is not *always* a sign a horse is lacking in confidence. It's just an expression, same as bucking, spooking, rearing, kicking out, biting etc etc. Horses tend to do the thing that's easiest for them physically or mentally, although sometimes they will get inadvertently "taught" an expression that isn't natural to them. (Generally easier to fix, although it's not always immediately obvious what is nature and what is nurture.) I've had a few that spun whenever they were under pressure, even if the pressure was too much food and not enough work. :D One was particularly awful and in the winter, when we were stuck in the indoor school for months, I'd be lucky if, by February, I could make it once around without him spinning. He'd also spin in collecting rings, the first hacks in the spring, xc schooling . . . any excitement could set him off. He also went both ways and gave little or no warning. It certainly wasn't a case of building up his confidence - if anything, he had too much!

Not really pertinent to the OP, I realise, but it's not always possible to extrapolate back from a specific behaviour to a specific cause. Horses do have their individual ways of expressing themselves, which is why it's so hard to get an accurate "diagnosis" over the internet.
 
I have read this post with interest - I have a 12 year old cob gelding who can be very strong for little old me!!! However up until about 18 months ago he was a saint - gave me every confidence - then one day he changed - he suddently started stopping when he saw of heard something (mainly things I cannot see!!!), froze to the spot - then I feel his energy coming up - he will start to shake and then he will turn so quickly and if I am not careful we will be back in the direction he just came 10 times quicker then we ever took to get to that point - it has got to the point that I get off and lead him past - not ideal I know. My confidence has taken a right battering that now I only have a couple of short hacks that I can do in "sort of" confidence - anywhere new is a no no. However he is no trouble at all in company. He also naps to leave the yard. And I am now at my wits end with what to do as i am now putting of riding as a result.
 
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