Help please with a strong young cob - bitting advice.

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riverdale

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Been a bit of a lurker, now i need some help.

I have a 5 and a half yr old show cob type. My aim is to take her to novice level dressage and do show cob classes (local and maybe county next year) aswell as some hunting this autumn.
She is ridden in a NS loose ring snaffle with a lozenge. She does go okay in this bit and foams up nicely after working in it. I have been doing lots of transitions lately to really get her off the leg followed by a tap with the schooling whip if its not an immediate response with a squeeze. This is working well, however when it comes to asking for a halt or going down a transition she pulls her head down and opens her mouth and is rather difficult to get to walk - takes several strides to pull her up. Also i have to ask for quite a strong contact and really push her on with my legs to really get her working forward onto the bridle. By the time this has been achieved (after a good 15 min warm up on a loose contact) its almost been a good 40 mins by then am knackered!! the end result is a nice elastic contact, beautifully light and her working nicely from behind. We only get about 5 - 10 mins of this lovely work though as i don't like to push her and normally by then its been 45 - 60 mins. We then cool off on a long rein.
Now i worry about pulling on the snaffle harder than i like and potentially spoiling her mouth.
Now another thing she does out hacking in company, she gets very strong out cantering she really pulls normally head up and mouth wide open. I hate pulling on her but sometimes i have to hold her together to gain some sort of control :o could be a problem when we go hunting.
A bit about me :) i have been riding and had several horses for a good 20 + years and have had lots of lessons in the past, i have very Good hands (i know this myself swell as being told by several instructors/dressage trainers) she is my first baby since scratch that i have backed and brought on. In the past i have mainly owned sensitive TBs who never really had issues with being strong!
I have come to the conclusion of maybe trying her in a pelham with 2 reins, i know its a stronger bit but am always aware of the bit being only as strong as the riders hands! surely a stronger bit with little pressure would be better than a snaffle thats being constantly pulled? I have heard a lot of horses go better and are more settled in a pelham.
Of course i know she will have to be in a snaffle for dressage.
The other option is to try a flash and see how we get on in that? but then that doesnt really solve the problem of riding her in a strong contact to get her really working forwards onto the bridle?
Thoughts please :)
 
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You shouldnt be pulling to change your transition, you need to sit down in the saddle and become heavy in a way and this should make them disengage the back end and drop the transition down. Dont do too much on her she is only young. Still a bit green, give with the hands and she shouldnt lean on you, its give and take. You pull she is going to pull. Does she have a nutcracker in her mouth can you imagine that pushing up in to the pallat of her mouth, very painful, so you need to give with the hands so that is not in action all the time.

Better knowlegeable peeps will have an idea what i am talking about and explain better i am sure.
 
Hi there,

I have a big h/w coloured lad and he is strong as an ox in a snaffle. After a lot of head down tanking behaviour I made the decision to only ride him in his two rein Pelham for hacking and jumping and his double for schooling (we are elementary so can use it to compete dressage). Again my hands are very light (every other horse I have owned has been snaffle mouthed) and he is balanced and correct in his double but put him back in a snaffle for any length of time and his inner 'Thelwell' makes an appearance ;) but then he is 18 and has learnt a few tricks in his time!!

So in answer to your question, better a light and controlled contact in a two rein Pelham (bottom rein only for 'handbrake' usage!) than a horse that scares/makes your life miserable/ends up with a sore mouth in a snaffle.

p.s try the NS verbindend for dressage, it is by far the best for my boy

There will of course be those that disagree..
 
putasocinit said:
You shouldnt be pulling to change your transition, you need to sit down in the saddle and become heavy in a way and this should make them disengage the back end and drop the transition down. Dont do too much on her she is only young. Still a bit green, give with the hands and she shouldnt lean on you, its give and take. You pull she is going to pull. Does she have a nutcracker in her mouth can you imagine that pushing up in to the pallat of her mouth, very painful, so you need to give with the hands so that is not in action all the time.

Better knowlegeable peeps will have an idea what i am talking about and explain better i am sure.
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No nutcracker.
A NS loose ring snaffle with lozenge.
I do give with my hands rather alot, yes it is give and take.
I sit deep when asking for a downward transition.
I school her once a week for 45 mins.
The rest of the time is hacking 3-4 x per week
 
I had/have a very similar issue with my cob and I really, really wish I hadn't persevered with snaffles for as long as I did because I wanted to live up to the "every horse should go perfectly in a loose ring lozenge snaffle forever" as I think I have actually ended up making my horse's mouth harder even though I was trying to do everything correctly.

I don't use a pelham/double for brakes or to keep the head in which pelham detractors sometimes suggest is the only way it used - I use it for precisely the opposite - so I can ask for more forwardness and a longer neck - to do this without ending up running along on the forehand the horse needs relaxed jaw so you can give effective half halts which in turn help you keep the balance and engagement behind... which is kind of the basis of everything IMO! If a pelham helps you achieve that easily and spares the horse's mouth - why not use it? (apart from in a dressage test of course!)

With a pelham/double I can be as light with my hands as I am in a snaffle on other horses and I wish I had worried more about the strength of the contact I seemed to require (which other people can't always see & so don't have an opinion on) and less about the strength of the bit (which people can see and therefore comment on).
 
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Pelhams etc with a Cambridge mouth are a very rewarding bit as you have a fixed place for your cheekpiece to fix to and a fixed place for your rein and a small port so horse can lift tongue to swallow. When there is no pressure thru the reins the bit sits in a neutral position in the mouth , not resting on the tongue , no poll pressure no curb . You close your hand on your rein , you get leverage on your rein ring which gives you poll pressure , the mouthpiece rolls forwards onto the tongue until you stop with your reins or the curbchain stops the rotation. But as soon as you open your hand the bit sits back into a neutral position , poll pressure off and curb. Horse gets a reward for doing as asked ie no pressure.
So Pelhams Kimblewicks and the like ( fixed place for rein and cheekpiece , Cambridge mouth) are def not a severe bit , they are the opposite really . A little poll pressure goes along way , so you only need a little ask to get what you want and a clear reward to say well done.
Flash nosebands dont often solve problems , if your horse is opening its mouth , its for a reason , discover the reason and solve that , dont mask the problem.
 
somethingillremember said:
Pelhams etc with a Cambridge mouth are a very rewarding bit as you have a fixed place for your cheekpiece to fix to and a fixed place for your rein and a small port so horse can lift tongue to swallow. When there is no pressure thru the reins the bit sits in a neutral position in the mouth , not resting on the tongue , no poll pressure no curb . You close your hand on your rein , you get leverage on your rein ring which gives you poll pressure , the mouthpiece rolls forwards onto the tongue until you stop with your reins or the curbchain stops the rotation. But as soon as you open your hand the bit sits back into a neutral position , poll pressure off and curb. Horse gets a reward for doing as asked ie no pressure.
So Pelhams Kimblewicks and the like ( fixed place for rein and cheekpiece , Cambridge mouth) are def not a severe bit , they are the opposite really . A little poll pressure goes along way , so you only need a little ask to get what you want and a clear reward to say well done.
Flash nosebands dont often solve problems , if your horse is opening its mouth , its for a reason , discover the reason and solve that , dont mask the problem.
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Explains a lot, especially for the heavy cob types with fleshy mouths and thick tongues. It's exactly this type of Pelham mine likes, although in his double I had to go for the forward angled NS warmblood Weymouth to allow for bradoon space too (verbindend).
 
somethingillremember said:
Pelhams etc with a Cambridge mouth are a very rewarding bit as you have a fixed place for your cheekpiece to fix to and a fixed place for your rein and a small port so horse can lift tongue to swallow. When there is no pressure thru the reins the bit sits in a neutral position in the mouth , not resting on the tongue , no poll pressure no curb . You close your hand on your rein , you get leverage on your rein ring which gives you poll pressure , the mouthpiece rolls forwards onto the tongue until you stop with your reins or the curbchain stops the rotation. But as soon as you open your hand the bit sits back into a neutral position , poll pressure off and curb. Horse gets a reward for doing as asked ie no pressure.
So Pelhams Kimblewicks and the like ( fixed place for rein and cheekpiece , Cambridge mouth) are def not a severe bit , they are the opposite really . A little poll pressure goes along way , so you only need a little ask to get what you want and a clear reward to say well done.
Flash nosebands dont often solve problems , if your horse is opening its mouth , its for a reason , discover the reason and solve that , dont mask the problem.
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Thank you :) you have explained the action of the pelham very well.

The opening of the mouth only happens when she pulls and becomes strong. It normally does not happen in every day schooling, unless we ask for lots of downward transitions from walk to halt. This happens especially if she is really listening and we are doing alot of walk to halt, halt to walk trot to walk etc. She becomes very forward off the leg.
Noticed out on a hack she won't do it unless she gets strong cantering with another horse and she wants to go faster and starts pulling, she rarely pulls when we hack across fields alone.
Teeth where done 6 months ago :)

Explains a lot, especially for the heavy cob types with fleshy mouths and thick tongues. It's exactly this type of Pelham mine likes, although in his double I had to go for the forward angled NS warmblood Weymouth to allow for bradoon space too (verbindend).

She also has a big tongue and very flsehy mouth.
 
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Dont forget that when working ( rather than an amble out for a hack etc ) that alot more saliva is produced so if your horse is struggling to swallow thats when you can get the "evasion" , thats why I love the cambridge mouth Pelhams etc and Myler ( Level 2 upwards , shame not dressage legal !) . Now I know Ive been shot down in flames because Ive said about horses not being able to swallow because the bit is resting on the tongue but you , me and your horse .. we need to lift our tongue to swallow . Think of what its like at the Dr when he presses your tongue down with the lollypop stick , nor when at the dentist the sucky thing isnt sucking the saliva thats building up in your mouth ... and you're just sitting down ! Imagine that but trotting around a school ! Sorry ... I'll just climb down from my soap box now !
 
Another vote for the cambridge mouthed pelham, with or without roundings.

My mini-cob (OK, fatty dartmoor) - similar mouth shape and built like a tank, goes so sweetly in a kimblewick (a pelham by any other name) it would be wicked to use anything else.
 
lara b said:
Explains a lot, especially for the heavy cob types with fleshy mouths and thick tongues. It's exactly this type of Pelham mine likes, although in his double I had to go for the forward angled NS warmblood Weymouth to allow for bradoon space too (verbindend).
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pennyturner said:
Another vote for the cambridge mouthed pelham, with or without roundings.

My mini-cob (OK, fatty dartmoor) - similar mouth shape and built like a tank, goes so sweetly in a kimblewick (a pelham by any other name) it would be wicked to use anything else.
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I have the cambridge show pelham. Will try her in it tonight, see how we get on.
Thanks for your advice :)
 
Try a NS universal with the leather curb if he likes NS. I use it for jumping, nice and light with soft hands.
 
Genuine question here I have only ever used mullen mouths so I know nothing about ports :o...how much tongue room does the cambridge mouth actually give - the port seems very narrow compared to the width of the tongue?

http://www.rbequestrian.co.uk/21364/products/cambridge-pelham.aspx

For tongue room would a mouthpiece like this be even better or are there drawbacks to a wider port? (ignoring the different cheeks obviously)

http://cotswoldsport.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=488


Also I have read that one difference between mullen mouths & ported bits is that ported ones give more tongue relief but more bar pressure and with mullen mouths there is more tongue pressure but less bar pressure - is that actually true?

Thanks :)
 
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I have found time and again that heavy-fronted cob types go much better (and happier) in a curb action bit (pelhams, kimblewicks, double bridles) than in the snaffle - which is not the "kind" bit that most people are led to believe it is.
 
Pongwiffy the "port" on the Swales is good as its low and wide but very few bits have this , the Pelham is the more common port you will find . The Myler level 2 has similar to the Swales .Tongue relief is I think more important than bar pressure and really the bit is only resting on the bars . So yes the mullen will rest on the tongue but little on the bars and the ported will rest less on the tongue but a little more on the bars . Its all dependant on your horses mouth , shape , tongue , lips etc and what your horse likes and of course what manufacturers make !
 
Cortez said:
I have found time and again that heavy-fronted cob types go much better (and happier) in a curb action bit (pelhams, kimblewicks, double bridles) than in the snaffle - which is not the "kind" bit that most people are led to believe it is.
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Well said Cortez .... as Michael Cain is supposedly of said " Not alot of people know that ! "
 
You lot sound an awful lot more experienced than me, so don't shout me down ... but me and my big fat hairy cob are having lessons building up to our dressage debut (yeah, yeah, I know cobs don't do dressage!) and I was having terrible problems with my fella "leaning" on the bit .. I was quite literally holding up his head and neck, it was a nightmare as well as bloody painful for me. My instructor put her own Waterford snaffle on his bridle and we used that for a few months (only during lessons where he needed to be "held up") and the change has been miraculous!

Now he is back in his snaffle with sweet metal lozenge and is lovely, light and forward going (in a heavy traditional kind of way!) ... and yes we have had to work bloody hard to get to this stage, but it has been so gratifying.

I shall now shuffle back into my dark corner, byeee.

Oh and good luck with your strong girlie .... :D
 
Vanner...why would we shout you down ? You've done whats right for you and your horse . You have used an item that maybe you wouldnt of chosen or even thought to use , but with help and advise its worked .
Well Done !( sorry dont mean to sound patronising !)
 
Popped the show pelham in (with a low port) and wow the difference was amazing!!
She wasn't chomping it like the snaffle, she seemed very relaxed in it. We went for a hack and did a bit of schooling whilst out. I didn't use the curb rein atall, i asked very quietly for a bit of contact and straight away she took it up, no heaviness and mostly no leaning on the left rein! something she always does in the snaffle. What normally takes me a good 45 mins to achieve took a mere 5 mins after warming up! i didn't have to constantly ask for the contact she was just there. She was much more forward and i tried a couple of transitions. Halt was much better, i just sat deeply and asked very quietly and she stood straight away first time asking every time :)
She was very very easy to ride, loved the fact that i hardly had to ask for anything compared to the snaffle. Which meant lovely quiet still hands what i love. Unable to achieve this in the snaffle with all the mouth opening and fighting and leaning. Its only since riding in the pelham i can actually see how much the snaffle was bothering her.
She was very settled on a nice contact, foamed up nicely (not too much), so a happy horse and rider all round :)

However i would like to use something dressage legal. What is the closest to a pelham that we could try?
Would a hanging cheek with a low port be similar? had a quick look and wanted to know peoples opinions.
Many thanks
 
Totally agree with using a Pelham. I was in the same situation with my cob mare. I realised that it was jointed mouthpieces as well, which didn't suit her. So we used a ported Pelham for hacking and showing, and a hanging Mullen mouth snaffle for dressage. Most similar I could find to the Pelham. I used a myler and she went well in it.
 
I'm schooling a 17hh irish draught type, who can be a little bit strong and exuberant. He only gets strong in the school when he is tired, so just sticking to short sessions for now. I mentioned this on dressage forum and they said that groundwork was the key :) I would be reluctant to try a stronger bit as really it is a schooling issue.
 
Im so pleased that you had such a good result . I'd stick with this bit for the moment , as all seems to be good , and work occasionally in a dressage legal bit. If you think about wearing heels or new shoes .... you wear them for short lengths of time to start off with. You may never get use to wearing and be comfortable in them and be able to dance around the dancefloor like Beyonce but you can manage to wear them to go to dinner or a party , but boy are you glad to get them off !
Check through the BD website/regs Im fairly sure a port is going to be a problem, why ,I dont know. People should complain to BD re bits , your horse is a perfect example of why you should be allowed to use whatever your horse is happy in !
 
amymay said:
I'd be inclined to try a drop noseband, rather than a different bit.
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Pigeon said:
I'm schooling a 17hh irish draught type, who can be a little bit strong and exuberant. He only gets strong in the school when he is tired, so just sticking to short sessions for now. I mentioned this on dressage forum and they said that groundwork was the key :) I would be reluctant to try a stronger bit as really it is a schooling issue.
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I really think this isnt a schooling issue but more of a bitting issue, and last nights hack confirmed it for me. I could really notice the difference in her way of going and she was so much more relaxed in the pelham than the double jointed snaffle. I think it has everything to do with jointed bits.
Will try a myler hanging cheek for the dressage.

somethingillremember said:
Im so pleased that you had such a good result . I'd stick with this bit for the moment , as all seems to be good , and work occasionally in a dressage legal bit. If you think about wearing heels or new shoes .... you wear them for short lengths of time to start off with. You may never get use to wearing and be comfortable in them and be able to dance around the dancefloor like Beyonce but you can manage to wear them to go to dinner or a party , but boy are you glad to get them off !
Check through the BD website/regs Im fairly sure a port is going to be a problem, why ,I dont know. People should complain to BD re bits , your horse is a perfect example of why you should be allowed to use whatever your horse is happy in !
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:D:D your reference to Beyonce made me laugh!
Thank you somethingillremember you have been most helpful :)
 
riverdale said:
Popped the show pelham in (with a low port) and wow the difference was amazing!!
She wasn't chomping it like the snaffle, she seemed very relaxed in it. We went for a hack and did a bit of schooling whilst out. I didn't use the curb rein atall, i asked very quietly for a bit of contact and straight away she took it up, no heaviness and mostly no leaning on the left rein! something she always does in the snaffle. What normally takes me a good 45 mins to achieve took a mere 5 mins after warming up! i didn't have to constantly ask for the contact she was just there. She was much more forward and i tried a couple of transitions. Halt was much better, i just sat deeply and asked very quietly and she stood straight away first time asking every time :)
She was very very easy to ride, loved the fact that i hardly had to ask for anything compared to the snaffle. Which meant lovely quiet still hands what i love. Unable to achieve this in the snaffle with all the mouth opening and fighting and leaning. Its only since riding in the pelham i can actually see how much the snaffle was bothering her.
She was very settled on a nice contact, foamed up nicely (not too much), so a happy horse and rider all round :)

However i would like to use something dressage legal. What is the closest to a pelham that we could try?
Would a hanging cheek with a low port be similar? had a quick look and wanted to know peoples opinions.
Many thanks
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Glad you found improvement, that's exactly how I felt too.. snaffle is now in a drawer somewhere! I tried a Mullen mouth for dressage (before we shifted to Elementary) and had no joy but the NS Verbindend is quite forward cut so mine seems to tolerate that well (although it is used in his double so he still has a forward andgled ported bit for the wemouth). Worth a try, and if all else fails just ride in your Pelham and only swap to snaffle for test day.. or go straight to Elementary .. worked for me ;)!
 
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