Help Please with young bolshy cob!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bright Eyes]

I have a 4 year old unbroken cob, who I think, thinks he is in charge and to some degree is getting the upper hand. He has always had a bit of a stuben streak and is very think skinned. He wouldn`t lead very well when I first got him at 4, but this was just because he had never been led around and I found myself having to use my whip quite alot to get him to walk on, etc. I don` t know if this made him a bit sour, but he seems to be more of a problem when I take him in the school, which is where I started this training. Not long after that he tried to bomb off and got away with it the once! Then I noticed he did a bit of a threaten to kick when asking him to walk on. Then when leading in the school he just wouldn` t turn in the direction we were going and in stead would turn towards me and the fence and sort of crush me against it. Then he started trying to nip (which I think was about the polos he had had before - so stopped these - he sort of gets aggressive if he thinks you have sweats in your pocket), but now when leading he tries to bite my hand, which seamed to start when I put the monty roberts head collar on and he would try and bit the nose strap, which hangs down. He also often when leading shakes his head before he does something and if he`s not trying to do one of the above it`s another.

He uses his strength against me and I have tried most things, but I think if I get too cross with him he will get worse/ become aggressive. Any ideas please???????????????

 

[cobmum]

I would use a knotted or control headcollar and a long line to start with. I found with a bolshy cob i previously owned that the monty roberts books really helped as they teach you about your body language and eye contact.

Kelly marks has a good you tube video that shows you how to get a stubben horse to back up out of your space.

You will get there it will just take time and lots of clear 'asks'. Make good descions easy and bad decsions difficult.

 

[sykokat]

Ground work is what you need. Am I right in thinking that you may have not had experience with this type of horse? You would do well to seek some help from an instructor or experienced person. Try to leave the whip in the tack room. Using this may just 'annoy' him even more and that will only escalate the situation. Get some help sooner rather than later. And try to make it fun with rewards. Not sweets but praise and physical touch, ie a scratch or a pat.

 

[POLLDARK]

Ground work & more ground work, perhaps get a friend to help too. Use a control halter or a bridle. make him walk tight circles for a few minutes, changing direction repeatedly. Try allowing plenty of time aswell so that you can see issues through & not let him win. Love the Stubben for stubborn, but seriously do not back down to him as that will make him worse.

 

[soulfull]

keep things really simple so that you always get what you set out for!
Cobs are clever little toads and to them one foot in YOUR space is a victory so next time they walk all over you.
Backing up when you say so is a very under estimated tool. He must learn to back and stop when you say so, then come forward towards you and STOP before he gets in YOUR space. Just these two simple things will make a huge difference and every time he is naughty go back to them immediately

I honestly believe that without compromising YOUR safety you have to do what it takes, if that means using a whip or a hoof pick poked in his chest (without damaging him) then that is what it takes. But whatever you do Don't forget the praise!! one step back big fuss etc. Despite their stubbornness they do love to please, its only when people misunderstand them or let them take over they get insecure and then sometimes become dangerous to handle

Expect more arguments to start with because so far he is used to getting his own way so may well resort to even worse tactics so wear hat gloves all the time!! and even a body protector if you have one. It will only take one or two worse arguments for him to realise you do mean it

Do some research on horses and pressure release

If you are not able to do this get an experienced person who can, but chose carefully who you get.

 

[olop]

I echo the groundwork - my boy was a nightmare at that age & would just randomly drag me across to reach a bit of grass. I also found a controller headcollar a godsend, I bought a chain one & it soon nipped it in the bud along with some help from the Perfect Manners book by Kelly marks (its a really good read for people with bolshy horses!)

 

[Bright Eyes]

Thanks everyone. Any more suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[Ladydragon]

Ugh...what a horrible situation - and potential to really spiral out of control if it's not addressed correctly...

I echo the suggestion of getting someone quite experienced in to have a look if that's at all possible...

Another thing that might be worth considering is clicker training... Because it's based around positive reinforcement and ignoring the incorrect aspect of a behaviour being concentrated on it can work well... Start very small though and you do have to be committed to sticking with it and having the timing just right... Sometimes another person might be needed to depending on whether you'd have a hand free to operate the clicker and the initial reward association... IF he was suited to it though (and it's not everyone's cup of tea), getting his attention and developing a positive relationship might roll onto other aspects of handling him even before you start moving the clicker training up the chain to more complex behaviours...

 

[vicky_sut]

Just a thought has he had his teeth done? if his teeth are sharp they could be giving him discomfort with a control headcollar that tightens round his face.
I have know youngsters that are teething to want to put everything in their mouths. Although you defo sound like you could do with some help from someone experienced, is there anyone on your yard you could ask? How does he behave when someone else leads him?

 

[tess1]

well, I expect I will get slated for this, but hey ho, here's my two pence worth!

It sounds as if you have got your wires crossed with this horse. To me, he sounds anxious and defensive (thoughts about kicking, trying to bite your hands and chewing on the pressure halter all suggest that he is in a state of conflict and anxiety). If he is four and does not know how to lead it seems as if he has had very little handling (?) and you are perhaps making things harder for him than he can cope with. The training needs to be broken down into smaller steps and made more positive. The training sessions don't sound like much fun for either of you. I would take a step back for the training for a moment and spend a bit of time chilling out with your horse, work out where all his lovely itchy bits are - withers, base of ears etc. Make sure you can get some really lip curling responses to your scratching.

I would suggest you go onto Ben Hart's (google Hart's Horsemanship) and download his shaping plan for safe leading. It covers the correct use of pressure and release but without escalating the pressure which is likely to get you into a fight with the horse. It will explain to you exactly when to 'release' for the smallest try from the horse to begin with, and then build from there. You can use lip-curling scratches as a reward for him, along with the release of pressure. The plan goes through very easy steps about teaching your horse to lead safely. I would suggest you find somewhere other than the school to do this work initially as the horse perhaps has some bad associations with the school now. I would also suggest you lose the whip and work in a bog standard headcollar rather than a pressure halter type. when he understands how to lead, go back to the school. The initial work can be done in his stable, or a quiet corner of the yard anyway as it is just teaching the horse how to give to pressure. I would not suggest clicker training for this horse yet, I think you need to sort out your relationship and timing first, but clicker training is certainly an a very effective way of training.

I also think that fully physical check would be a very good idea, particularly teeth as someone has already said, as sharp edges could be increasing the discomfort of the tightening noseband of the headcollar.

 

[Ladydragon]

I would not suggest clicker training for this horse yet, I think you need to sort out your relationship and timing first, but clicker training is certainly an a very effective way of training.

That could be a very valid point Tess... I do use it for very basic stuff - getting feet up, stepping back without needing a shove when the door is opened etc - but there's already a comfortable, 'hands on the body' (not too sure how else to explain it ) relationship...