HELP - saddle fitting nightmare - lump on spine/saddle returns to EU?

[Charliesway]

Really hoping someone can help me with this! I’ve had a really very long running saga trying to find a saddle to fit my horse (Over a year). I am potentially about to purchase a Schleese saddle and I believe the transaction would take place in Belgium and then be posted to me. We have tried this saddle and it has been fitted by Schleese fitter, who travelled from Belgium for this. It seemed to fit really well and horse was comfortable. Also tried another at the time which also fitted well, though was a jump and “closer fitting” .

my horse had a pre existing lump on his spine when I tried the schleese saddles (which had come up after trialling an ideal impala a few weeks ago - more on that below - had the vet out at the time etc but basically concluded it was from pressure/friction likely from the Ideal).

This morning lump seems to have been aggravated by the Schleese saddle Fitting yesterday where we tried two saddles. Both fitted well, so it seemed. It is POSSIBLY from the saddle pad I was using but don’t really have any way of knowing. One saddle was closer fitting than the other, so potentially that too, but also don’t know because I tried them both on the same day. the fitter has suggested it could be either of those and to chose the less close fitting saddle to use with a sheepskin pad. As above the fitter comes from Belgium so not that easy to just organise another fitting with a different pad (would be july).

it’s a really frustrating situation because I am now staring down the barrel of a gun of shelling out over 3k for a Schleese saddle which by far he has seemed the most comfortable in of all those we have tried, BUT now with the issue that this lump issue will be further aggravated by riding in it, although it COULD be as simple as just using a sheepskin pad. I have been saving up to afford one of these saddles and I’m now just deeply uncomfortable about spending that when we have this issue.

I am trying to find out from the fitter what the returns policy is if eg the lump continues to get worse even with a sheepskin. I’ve been told if I agree to buy the saddle after trying it then I have to take the saddle but “if there is a problem“ she will help me find another model or refund the saddle minus VAT. Which sounds promising but does anyone know what the actual legal position is on returns on goods which turn out to be not fit for purpose if eg continues to cause damage?

when vet took X-rays of lump a couple of weeks ago they said it was NOT as a result of issues with the veterbrae or ligament, but looked to be only on the skin, suggested maybe a kind of sebaceous cyst created from pressure from the saddle. I concluded probably that saddle, the ideal. I have asked vet again if eg aspirating the lump would be useful.

I just dont know what to do! After finally finding a saddle that seems great, the nightmare continues. if anyone or any saddle fitters on here could help with any suggestions or advice on saddle returns to the EU I would be really grateful! Thank you

 

[tristar]

i agree with your vet

 

[Charliesway]

i agree with your vet

I am sure the vet is right. Do you think it is too risky still to buy the first schleese saddle as it MAY have been the closer fitting one which aggravated it (or the saddle pad) on the basis that it could be returned if that saddle made it worse? I’m just wondering what my actual entitlements to return to the EU would be, beyond just the fitter agreeing informally with me that if there’s a further problem I could return it.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think I would spend £3000 on any saddle while my horse has an unresolved lump on his back, but certainly not on one which can only be fitted by someone flying in from Belgium.
.

 

[tristar]

i would try to resolve the lump issues first

you could use another saddle meantime with a thick felt pad and hole cut out where the lump is.

might be safer to let the lump go first as it is aggravated by saddles

 

[Auslander]

I think if it were me, I'd want the lump dealt with before I started dropping big dollar on saddles!

 

[Charliesway]

I do agree it is a bizarre sounding situation and that would be sensible if possible to address the lump first. Though I’m not sure the lump can be addressed in the sense of being solved, unless it was removed completely, which seems a little extreme when it’s not bothering him (nor actually in the way of a saddle)

I did ask the vet what the options for the lump would be, they thought it would be difficult to aspirate and otherwise it would be taking a biopsy which apparently is not a particularly straightforward area to heal.

they are pretty sure it is something in the skin caused from friction or pressure, we just don’t know which saddle has contributed to it - tho safe to say it was riding in the ideal which caused it to appear (which is the only other saddle I have and which I won’t ride in now!)

I definitely wouldn’t want to continue to ride in a saddle that seemed to be aggravating anything, maybe I’m just too keen to want to believe that the first schleese GP fitted so well that it wouldn’t be the culprit (as the fitter suggests)

Or maybe I have just gone a bit doolally that it’s been going on so long it now seems like less of an effort to spend 3k on a saddle on the basis I can return it if it does turn out to be the culprit , on the chance it won’t!

Good to have the reality check from others

 

[Flame_]

My horse has a lump on the centre of his back caused by a previous saddle. He has it medicated with steroids but it's unlikely to ever get better and will alway be a trial and error, management until nothing works thing.

He's currently in my old horse's Reactor Panel saddle (expertly fitted by myself, my non-horsey husband and some you-tube videos!) So far so good, but the trouble with my horse's lump is that he doesn't seem to show pain from it, and there's a delay before it gets worse - like it doesn't come up after riding, it comes up after weeks off when the steroids wear off, so it's quite a hard one to judge.

Anyway, a point out of all that would be, check out RP saddles, they are interesting, unusual tools that are at least handy to have sometimes, if not the straightforward answer to all your prayers. Plus you can get them second hand for a lot less than 3k.

 

[Wizpop]

I’m in agreement with others who have said about resolving the lump first. I had a horse who developed multiple small lumps in the saddle area- more on one side than the other. He had them when I bought him and passed a full 5 stage vetting with vet saying, as yours seems to be saying, that they were harmless sebaceous cysts. Interestingly, when he was out of work for a few weeks and unridden, the cysts went away.
I had my saddle fitted by a very good WOW fitter and was confident about the fit for horse.
I suppose what I’m saying is that it didn’t seem to be anything to do with the saddle, but my next step would have been to try different saddle pads etc:but I never got to fully investigate as he had to be retired

 

[sbloom]

It can be tricky working with an overseas fitter, during Covid Schleese lost a ton of business in the UK as the fitter couldn't get here at all. I work with some customers in Ireland but they are pretty self sufficient, I can work with them remotely especially as we're looking at the interactions of horse-saddle-rider rather than simply adjusting the saddle to compensate. There are lots of other options in the UK including alternative ones that don't have the marketing budget of Schleese.

Swellings on the spine are running away from pressure and I'm now learning a theory (which makes sense to me completely) they often form where the spine is rotating the most in work, not something you'll pick up from vet checks but more to do with posture and ribcage rotation. Most horses tilt more one way than the other and it's a useful way to view straightness and asymmetry. For instance think about what happens when the ribcage is tilted down on the outside (counter rotated) of a bend...so many saddle slipping right, so many riders "longer" on the right and so many horses tilted to the right.

So, look at this in the round, REALLY look into how he moves, how his posture is, do you end up with, for instance, downhill on a hack making the swellings the worst? I would look at reducing the rotation by making sure the saddle fit stabilises YOU so you can resist that rotation, and Schleese's are not intrinsically stable in fact they're sold on the opposite qualities - of being ultra flexible. I would probably not work this horse under saddle till I was more sure that he was moving well and not suffering excess rotation.

I know this is a different perspective to most, but I see the results of focusing on saddle fitting challenges this way.

Legally I'm sure you can return the saddle but you need detailed Ts and Cs from the fitter/company so you know what your rights are, and can contact Trading Standards, usually the CAB, to be sure beyond that. Have you not already had Ts and Cs to explain how your rights of return work? Every saddle sold in the UK and the EU should have these supplied before any order is placed, ideally before any visit as you want to know what the visit means for you.

 

[Charliesway]

My horse has a lump on the centre of his back caused by a previous saddle. He has it medicated with steroids but it's unlikely to ever get better and will alway be a trial and error, management until nothing works thing.

He's currently in my old horse's Reactor Panel saddle (expertly fitted by myself, my non-horsey husband and some you-tube videos!) So far so good, but the trouble with my horse's lump is that he doesn't seem to show pain from it, and there's a delay before it gets worse - like it doesn't come up after riding, it comes up after weeks off when the steroids wear off, so it's quite a hard one to judge.

Anyway, a point out of all that would be, check out RP saddles, they are interesting, unusual tools that are at least handy to have sometimes, if not the straightforward answer to all your prayers. Plus you can get them second hand for a lot less than 3k.

Thanks that’s interesting and useful to know. Did you find out what exactly is in the lump, eg a cyst? Vet hasn’t suggested steroids yet (probably too early days) so wondering in what circs that would be an option. can see how it’s difficult to tell what may have made it worse with steroids and a delay too. i only noticed this was worse the morning after trying these two new saddles. I will check out RP saddles.

 

[Charliesway]

I’m in agreement with others who have said about resolving the lump first. I had a horse who developed multiple small lumps in the saddle area- more on one side than the other. He had them when I bought him and passed a full 5 stage vetting with vet saying, as yours seems to be saying, that they were harmless sebaceous cysts. Interestingly, when he was out of work for a few weeks and unridden, the cysts went away.
I had my saddle fitted by a very good WOW fitter and was confident about the fit for horse.
I suppose what I’m saying is that it didn’t seem to be anything to do with the saddle, but my next step would have been to try different saddle pads etc:but I never got to fully investigate as he had to be retired

Thank you Yes Im thinking maybe more time to see if this lump resolves or at least goes down could be useful. It would be a lot easier to tell if a new saddle was “causing” it, if it had gone first. Although it first appeared on 8 April and then I didn’t ride again until 10 may, it had gone down to being much smaller more like a little pea in the middle, but didn’t disappear completely.

 

[sbloom]

Please do your due diligence when recommended a specific fitter or brand, especially where it is agents for the brand (as I used to be, nothing wrong with it in itself but you're depending on a small group of very connected people, spare parts etc if you run into issues). Search all brand names the company might use, and search on the fitters too. Don't rely on asking in real time on social media, check testimonials (do they have FB reviews, if not why not), Google reviews and search back on here as you'll get more answers than just who sees one post.

 

[blitznbobs]

If it’s a seb cyst why can’t it be removed?

 

[Charliesway]

It can be tricky working with an overseas fitter, during Covid Schleese lost a ton of business in the UK as the fitter couldn't get here at all. I work with some customers in Ireland but they are pretty self sufficient, I can work with them remotely especially as we're looking at the interactions of horse-saddle-rider rather than simply adjusting the saddle to compensate. There are lots of other options in the UK including alternative ones that don't have the marketing budget of Schleese.

Swellings on the spine are running away from pressure and I'm now learning a theory (which makes sense to me completely) they often form where the spine is rotating the most in work, not something you'll pick up from vet checks but more to do with posture and ribcage rotation. Most horses tilt more one way than the other and it's a useful way to view straightness and asymmetry. For instance think about what happens when the ribcage is tilted down on the outside (counter rotated) of a bend...so many saddle slipping right, so many riders "longer" on the right and so many horses tilted to the right.

So, look at this in the round, REALLY look into how he moves, how his posture is, do you end up with, for instance, downhill on a hack making the swellings the worst? I would look at reducing the rotation by making sure the saddle fit stabilises YOU so you can resist that rotation, and Schleese's are not intrinsically stable in fact they're sold on the opposite qualities - of being ultra flexible. I would probably not work this horse under saddle till I was more sure that he was moving well and not suffering excess rotation.

I know this is a different perspective to most, but I see the results of focusing on saddle fitting challenges this way.

Legally I'm sure you can return the saddle but you need detailed Ts and Cs from the fitter/company so you know what your rights are, and can contact Trading Standards, usually the CAB, to be sure beyond that. Have you not already had Ts and Cs to explain how your rights of return work? Every saddle sold in the UK and the EU should have these supplied before any order is placed, ideally before any visit as you want to know what the visit means for you.

Thank you yes it can certainly be tricky trying to find a new saddle via someone coming from overseas. It really wouldn’t be my preference but was really a last resort after so many issues / failed fittings (or at least I felt like they failed because he wasn’t happy being ridden in those saddles)

it is an absolute minefield trying to work out which options are good options honestly. hence alighting on schleese because their marketing at least gives the impression of being able to cater to our problems. Over the last year We have seen quite a few both independent fitters and brand associated fitters. he‘s very broad over the spine and big shouldered. saddle panels have sat over the shoulder and the saddle been shunted backwards. Panels over shoulder not an issue in themselves necessarily but do seem to push saddle too far back. I’ve found that the channel space in many saddle brands just do not have the required width over the spine For him without sitting on the spine. at least what I have been able to find out of them/try.

I initially I rode him in a second hand nathanial underwood which to be fair was quite generous in the gullet. It was checked by an SMS fitter when I bought him in 2021 but he began being increasingly difficult to mount. It was checked again by them and said to be fine. I did not agree it was fine. Although interestingly it did not create a lump on the spine like this!

another fitter then checked that saddle and wanted me just to add a pad, I did not do this as the tree points already seemed too tight. In the end I took that saddle apart. The tree was wonky inside. The points were at different angles but also one of the bars was lower than the other. Last summer another fitter wanted to sell us a wintec which was very narrow in the channel, also with very short tree points (not much good for a high wither on a broad backed ISH, I know think), or a Strada as an alternative (She was a classical dressage trainer as by that point I had begun to see the importance of proper biomechical training). but strada as you know is designed to be very close fitting. I got a second hand one on trial (from a generous person on their forum!). But as with the wintec, the strada sat right ON his trapezius and spinal processes. So I said no to those.

I have found a couple of other brands that at least market themselves as having greater width for the spine, (apart from Schleese) stride free and Harry dabbs. One fitter told me HD would be fine, but the more “adjustable” SF option seemed preferable To me at the time. I know SF trees are meant to flex but it was just rolling all over the place. Horse very unhappy, head flinging incessantly. Had one on trial, horse broncing when ridden and going backwards again trying to get on. Fitter didn’t agree it would be the saddle - Ive found the longer your horse is out of Ridden work the easier an explanation this is for signs of discomfort at the fitting (by the fitter). I also found that the “adjustability” of SF around the gullet plate impacted the shape of the rest of the saddle, so it became too flat and broad further down also, and sat too low in the front (like if you put a wide bar in a KandM for example, it spreads out further down the tree.

so I then thought back to Harry Dabbs, got another fitter out for that. Asked her to bring the trees themselves (as I had the previous fitter). contrary to the previous fitter, She thought the trees actually did not suit his back shape very well, so suggested an ideal impala. that didn’t have all that I was looking for in a saddle, the channel was still a bit narrow to my mind, the front panels still seemed to sit over his shoulder, but honestly at this stage I was willing to consider a more traditional style. Except she wanted me to buy one new, which I wasn’t particularly keen on given our history of difficulties at this point (and even trying the ideal there was some head flinging and mostly inverted going round). I bought a second hand one myself As per the same tree etc. I thought it fitted similarly to the one we tried with the fitter. Channel a similar width. that was the saddle after riding in this lump initially came up. I strongly suspect it was placing undue pressure on his spine or next to his spine, or was twisting over his spine ridden (he has one shoulder bigger than the other so not totally surprising). Yeah, I could have got that fitter back to tell me if it was fine or not, but i did not. We may well have had the same issue even if it had been.

When it came up initially I stopped riding, got the vet out for X-rays, terrified that maybe due to a lack of work his spine had sagged and the vertebrae were touching under saddle. X-rays showed literally only in the skin. It had gone down to a small pea a few weeks later When we had the Schleese fitting.

So that is what took me to Schleese. this description doesn’t even include the multiple other fitters we have spoken to and not pursued because they just didn’t seem to know what they are talking about. It is REALLY HARD to find someone whose advice you can rely on, or brands which aren’t totally opaque about the ideas behind their saddles.

So getting a fitter from abroad, from a brand that SEEMS to cater for the issues we have, seemed like our last resort.

I just describe all this because you say there are other UK brands out there but, as an owner, it is not at all easy, and by that I mean soul crushingly difficult, and expensive, to find fitters or saddle brands which are upfront about their philosophy, know what they are talking about and honestly, are genuinely more concerned about your horse’s comfort than selling their saddle.

of course the irony is that at least one of the Schleese saddles seem to have aggravated this lump! I just despair.

if you do have any suggestions I would really welcome them please.

And no I haven’t even been sent any T and Cs by this fitter! I did ask what the returns policy would be but she just sent me a message Saying unless there was a problem I agreed to keep the saddle (which also legally I’m not even sure is right!)

 

[Charliesway]

Please do your due diligence when recommended a specific fitter or brand, especially where it is agents for the brand (as I used to be, nothing wrong with it in itself but you're depending on a small group of very connected people, spare parts etc if you run into issues). Search all brand names the company might use, and search on the fitters too. Don't rely on asking in real time on social media, check testimonials (do they have FB reviews, if not why not), Google reviews and search back on here as you'll get more answers than just who sees one post.

yes quite, see below for our sorry tale!

 

[Gloi]

My horse has a lump on the centre of his back caused by a previous saddle. He has it medicated with steroids but it's unlikely to ever get better and will alway be a trial and error, management until nothing works thing.

He's currently in my old horse's Reactor Panel saddle (expertly fitted by myself, my non-horsey husband and some you-tube videos!) So far so good, but the trouble with my horse's lump is that he doesn't seem to show pain from it, and there's a delay before it gets worse - like it doesn't come up after riding, it comes up after weeks off when the steroids wear off, so it's quite a hard one to judge.

Anyway, a point out of all that would be, check out RP saddles, they are interesting, unusual tools that are at least handy to have sometimes, if not the straightforward answer to all your prayers. Plus you can get them second hand for a lot less than 3k.

A secondhand reactor panel was the answer to mine too.

 

[Flame_]

Thanks that’s interesting and useful to know. Did you find out what exactly is in the lump, eg a cyst?

No. It's a general thickening along the middle of his back (like a small hill rather than a knobble iykwim?) which is fluidy to varying degrees. Physio thought maybe ligament damage. Vet non-committal but said next step would be to scan it if it progresses but given that I am no longer a "dive in for investigations, horspitals and operations" kind of person, it's just been approached with conservative treatment and management changes so far. He's had it a couple of years.

 

[Charliesway]

If it’s a seb cyst why can’t it be removed?

It probably could, but I think the real
issue is what the cyst is being caused by, and as an indicator of poor saddle fit? I’m not sure what the purpose would be of actually removing as it’s not painful for him, nor itself gets in the way of a saddle, unless it would give us a “clean slate” to start again with further saddle fittings, and see if any new lumps appeared
, but from what I gather it’s not a totally straightforward area to heal. Ofc it would heal but I’m just not sure what the benefit of removing it would be.

 

[Charliesway]

No. It's a general thickening along the middle of his back (like a small hill rather than a knobble iykwim?) which is fluidy to varying degrees. Physio thought maybe ligament damage. Vet non-committal but said next step would be to scan it if it progresses but given that I am no longer a "dive in for investigations, horspitals and operations" kind of person, it's just been approached with conservative treatment and management changes so far. He's had it a couple of years.

Ah right, interesting, yeah I would say I’m very much in the dive in for investigations stage, but to what avail I’m not sure!

 

[blitznbobs]

It probably could, but I think the real
issue is what the cyst is being caused by, and as an indicator of poor saddle fit? I’m not sure what the purpose would be of actually removing as it’s not painful for him, nor itself gets in the way of a saddle, unless it would give us a “clean slate” to start again with further saddle fittings, and see if any new lumps appeared
, but from what I gather it’s not a totally straightforward area to heal. Ofc it would heal but I’m just not sure what the benefit of removing it would be.

Sebaceous cysts are not caused by rubbing they are caused by a blocked sebaceous gland … nothing to do with trauma

 

[Charliesway]

Sebaceous cysts are not caused by rubbing they are caused by a blocked sebaceous gland … nothing to do with trauma

Ah really, I understood from the vet it could be related, I assumed maybe it became blocked or irritated from the saddle pad / saddle but maybe I misunderstood how they interact, or maybe it was mentioned in passing separately and I just assumed that. It hasn’t been diagnosed as a sebaceous cyst. All that has been determined at this point is that it almost certainly is in the skin itself and a result of pressure or friction from trying the saddles.
Vet did mention another possibility to describe it just as a “thickening of the skin” but I can’t remember what it was. It’s not fluidy, it’s a hard lump.

I’ve seen some previous older threads on here about various explanations for lumps on back like this , collagen granulomas or caused by weakened blood vessels.

It actually seems to have got a bit bigger this morning and is partly actually on the side of the spine too rather than just in the middle now.

Am going to leave any saddle purchasing for now, or riding, see how it is in a week or so , possibly get the vet to try to aspirate. I’m not super keen on biopsing it because it seems a bit invasive for what it is but maybe would be better to have an answer (tho I do feel like I already have the most useful answer I need - that it seems to have been a result of a saddle and aggravated by another saddle).

 

[paddi22]

we get a good few horses in that have come with lumps and bumps on backs from bad saddles. generally we find using a good sheepskin (mattes especially) ana less flexible saddle seem to work for them. there's some horses here that can only be ridden with good sheepskin on, and then there's no issues with them at all.

 

[Charliesway]

we get a good few horses in that have come with lumps and bumps on backs from bad saddles. generally we find using a good sheepskin (mattes especially) ana less flexible saddle seem to work for them. there's some horses here that can only be ridden with good sheepskin on, and then there's no issues with them at all.

Thanks good to know! I wish I had tried these saddles in a sheepskin to be able to better rule out the numnah being a cause. Although honestly I’ve ridden in that numnah quite a few times before and haven’t had this lump issue before with other saddles. Will be investing in a sheepskin for any new saddle tho, when I finally get one - just in case.

 

[tristar]

will you have to pay import duties if purchasing? and if you send back?

just a thought as you are not in the E U area

 

[Charliesway]

will you have to pay import duties if purchasing? and if you send back?

just a thought as you are not in the E U area

I believe if I brought it from the EU I would buy ex VAT and then pay the VAT to the shipping company. Didn’t get round to working out what customs charges there were, gov website seemed to think it would attract a customs charge but also I’m not exactly sure what position is post Brexit.

It’s a bit by the by now as have decided to leave it for now and told them I’m not comfortable buying a saddle which seems to have possibly made a lump worse on his back. also in retrospect the experience has made me feel quite uncomfortable that the fitter was even still trying to sell me one of the saddles knowing that a lump on his back had got worse after riding in them. I don’t think they should be doing that.

She still hadn’t given me any T and Cs on return but had suggested she send it to trial for 7 days, if it was still no good then to send it back to her, otherwise buy it (not sure how exactly that works with tax), but with the lump as it is it’s really not a good time to trial a saddle.

So I’ve just said to leave it for now, suggested a future trial of 7 days once it’s gone down/resolved but apparently the saddles return to Schleese on Tuesday - which I assume means then can’t be sent to me by her for a trial - so I guess that’s the end of that then.
Honestly what a palaver.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Ah really, I understood from the vet it could be related, I assumed maybe it became blocked or irritated from the saddle pad / saddle but maybe I misunderstood how they interact, or maybe it was mentioned in passing separately and I just assumed that. It hasn’t been diagnosed as a sebaceous cyst. All that has been determined at this point is that it almost certainly is in the skin itself and a result of pressure or friction from trying the saddles.
Vet did mention another possibility to describe it just as a “thickening of the skin” but I can’t remember what it was. It’s not fluidy, it’s a hard lump.

I’ve seen some previous older threads on here about various explanations for lumps on back like this , collagen granulomas or caused by weakened blood vessels.

It actually seems to have got a bit bigger this morning and is partly actually on the side of the spine too rather than just in the middle now.

Am going to leave any saddle purchasing for now, or riding, see how it is in a week or so , possibly get the vet to try to aspirate. I’m not super keen on biopsing it because it seems a bit invasive for what it is but maybe would be better to have an answer (tho I do feel like I already have the most useful answer I need - that it seems to have been a result of a saddle and aggravated by another saddle).

I agree that no saddle or riding would be my choice too for no.
These bumps caused by friction can be injected by steroid to reduce them.
Mine had loads of them , caused by saddle not fitting due to muscle wastage due to hind limb lameness.
He had his hocks streated and steroid into his SI - this helped with the bumps. My physio did some laser work on them and they reduced massively.
Once I had the saddle adjusted, and after all these treatments, they haven't returned.
The bumps felt warm after riding too and his skin was sensitive to touch.

 

[Charliesway]

I agree that no saddle or riding would be my choice too for no.
These bumps caused by friction can be injected by steroid to reduce them.
Mine had loads of them , caused by saddle not fitting due to muscle wastage due to hind limb lameness.
He had his hocks streated and steroid into his SI - this helped with the bumps. My physio did some laser work on them and they reduced massively.
Once I had the saddle adjusted, and after all these treatments, they haven't returned.
The bumps felt warm after riding too and his skin was sensitive to touch.

That is great to hear, I’m glad you got them sorted, thanks for the info x

 

[sbloom]

2% duty on saddles and accessories which can be reclaimed but I'd imagine the process is a PITA, I've not had to do it....yet.