HELP Seriousy Spooky Mare Bolting - Bad Fall this Morning :( Bye Bye Confidence

I never said dont get back on!!! The thing is it is not good for the OP to get back on in their present mental state.They even said in the OP they did not know if they could. This would be dangerous for the rider and the horse and make the issue worse.A pro who knows what their doing may turn this around very quickly and get the OP back on board,however if the OP is not comfortable the problem is likely to come back!.
Filling the horse with calmer and sedation does not get to the root of the problem but sadly has become every bodies first response to issues like this,have you ever seen a horse bolt with sedation on board its not a pretty sight.
 
Ok to answer some questions.

Yes i admit i feel like i am playing with fire atm and i have pushed myself to be brave and ride her when i haven't felt safe and it has got me nowhere. I agree i need professional help which is why my instructor is involved (is this what you mean by professional help?? she is a British Dressage registered Pyramid Trainer & she is excellent!) i have also contacted Intelligent Horsemanship in the hope to have a session next week to help with trust issues.

She certainly was not cheap. She is by Proset (Carl Hester's winning Grand Prix dressage stallion) her breeding is world class! and as mentioned before she has competed BD up to novice level and has jumped 3 double clears at BN on her only first 3 outings!! i have regular contact with owners who did so well with her and who are actually coming up on Sunday to also try and help with her and offer a solution :/

The weird thing is we have a period of 2 months where we are not sure what happened with her. Her original owners (whom i am in touch with) sold her to a riding instructor who only had her 3 weeks and then px'd her at a dealers yard! I then bought her direct from the dealer. So during this time (August - October) we do not know what happened or why the riding instructor gave up on her after 3 weeks! As mentioned before i have regular contact with her original owners and she never demonstrated behavior like this with them and believe i am unpicking damage others have caused in the short space of 2 months.

I do think now i have 'over horsed' myself. However she was perfect when i tried her (they always are) and yes she was fully vetted with bloods etc. People saying i need to send her away for schooling is not the right answer she does not need schooling she is fine in the school. Its the hacking out alone that is the problem and sending her away is not going to solve this. She is a very sensitive mare and someone being 'tougher' with her would be a catastrophe!
 
Are you sure when they say schooling they dont mean to get a pro hacking her out on her own which is my suggestion.Have you had the blood sample tested as this would not happen routinely!Only tested if a problem manifests itself.
I think from the history something happened in those 3wks before PX and I think you have come to that conclusion aswell.
It may sound harsh but I dont think the instructor will help much with this as I do question the logic that time off may solve it,you really need somebody there when it happens to see it.
 
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I hope your okay and she is too!!

Would you be able to have someone lead you? Have a leadrope and someone walking whilst you ride? Might give you a bit of confidence and reassure her that there's someone to stand beside her?

You've done a good thing by getting her checked by vets and ensuring she's well!!

Don't give up! She sounds like she's a good girl, and as you said its not nasty, she's frightened and needs you to be her leader!

Time and bonding - you can do it! :) x
 
pollypock1211 said:
The weird thing is we have a period of 2 months where we are not sure what happened with her. Her original owners (whom i am in touch with) sold her to a riding instructor who only had her 3 weeks and then px'd her at a dealers yard! I then bought her direct from the dealer. So during this time (August - October) we do not know what happened or why the riding instructor gave up on her after 3 weeks!
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My 16 year old mare went away for 4 days (as a 5yr old, she has been with me since 3) and came back a completely different (and substantially damaged horse!).

Sorry to be blunt but your horse isn't exceptional with BD Novice and BN double clears, that makes her average!

Don't be a hero, part of being good horseman is knowing when to get another opinion.
 
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the first suggestion i would make as an instructor is get your vet out and have a chat with them, i would want the horses eyes to be looked at closely for a start, my daughters first pony was amazing in traffic but terrible off road hacking it turned out she was losing her sight
 
popsdosh said:
Are you sure when they say schooling they dont mean to get a pro hacking her out on her own which is my suggestion.Have you had the blood sample tested as this would not happen routinely!Only tested if a problem manifests itself.
I think from the history something happened in those 3wks before PX and I think you have come to that conclusion aswell.
It may sound harsh but I dont think the instructor will help much with this as I do question the logic that time off may solve it,you really need somebody there when it happens to see it.
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Yes would love someone (a pro) to hack her out alone. Problem is finding one i trust who isnt going to shout and scream at her and escalate the problem further. If anyone has any suggestions in the North East area please get in touch.

No not had the blood sample tested i did think about it but then wondered. I tried her one day at the yard and then she was vetted the week after - the blood samples are taken on that day of the vetting not the day i tried her so if she was sedated when i tried her there would be no need to sedate her for the vetting (if that makes any sense). She was feisty when i tried her both times at the yard but did nothing silly and i quite enjoyed the ride.
 
pollypock1211 said:
Ok to answer some questions.

Yes i admit i feel like i am playing with fire atm and i have pushed myself to be brave and ride her when i haven't felt safe and it has got me nowhere. I agree i need professional help which is why my instructor is involved (is this what you mean by professional help?? she is a British Dressage registered Pyramid Trainer & she is excellent!) i have also contacted Intelligent Horsemanship in the hope to have a session next week to help with trust issues.

She certainly was not cheap. She is by Proset (Carl Hester's winning Grand Prix dressage stallion) her breeding is world class! and as mentioned before she has competed BD up to novice level and has jumped 3 double clears at BN on her only first 3 outings!! i have regular contact with owners who did so well with her and who are actually coming up on Sunday to also try and help with her and offer a solution :/

The weird thing is we have a period of 2 months where we are not sure what happened with her. Her original owners (whom i am in touch with) sold her to a riding instructor who only had her 3 weeks and then px'd her at a dealers yard! I then bought her direct from the dealer. So during this time (August - October) we do not know what happened or why the riding instructor gave up on her after 3 weeks! As mentioned before i have regular contact with her original owners and she never demonstrated behavior like this with them and believe i am unpicking damage others have caused in the short space of 2 months.

I do think now i have 'over horsed' myself. However she was perfect when i tried her (they always are) and yes she was fully vetted with bloods etc. People saying i need to send her away for schooling is not the right answer she does not need schooling she is fine in the school. Its the hacking out alone that is the problem and sending her away is not going to solve this. She is a very sensitive mare and someone being 'tougher' with her would be a catastrophe!
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People are suggesting getting an experienced pro on her to suss out the bolting and see what the problem is with the hacking. If there is an identifiable issue in the school (saying she goes well means nothing, really - a mild reaction in the school can be a clue to a big one out hacking and part of the solution might very well be starting with that mild reaction) then the pro might work on that but obviously the goal would be to deal with the bolting and the hacking AND helping you afterwards.

What did your instructor find when she rode the horse? Did it hack okay with her? Has she seen you hack the mare?

I presume you bought the mare for dressage? I have no personal experience with Proset but dresage bred horses, as a group, tend to be on the sharp/hot end of the spectrum as the job demands it. (Carl is well known for linking them hot even by dressage standards!) Of course many are lovely temperaments and can cope with "real life" if managed approppitely for the job that's expected, although it's not always that simple. When you speak to the old owners make sure you ask about all their management and preferably get the horse's past rider on board so she/he can tell you what feels different.

As far as their being two months to unpick. . . That depends what happened. If she was hurt or traumatised in some way, that would happen in an instant - I have stood and watched (even been sitting on horses) in the second it went from okay to disastrous.

Anyway, the old owners are a good place to start. Hopefuly they will be able to shed some light on the subject.

Out of curiosity, what was your last horse? Do you have a fair bit of experience with highly bred young competition horses? I'm not casting aspersions, just looking at all the factors in play. :)
 
Baggybreeches said:
My 16 year old mare went away for 4 days (as a 5yr old, she has been with me since 3) and came back a completely different (and substantially damaged horse!).

Sorry to be blunt but your horse isn't exceptional with BD Novice and BN double clears, that makes her average!

Don't be a hero, part of being good horseman is knowing when to get another opinion.
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I am not saying in anyway that my horse is exceptional i wanted to state the fact that she is NOT green - i said her breeding is world class, and it is.

Horsemanship coming on Monday :) despite this, sadly i think i know what decision i am going to have to make.
 
pollypock1211 said:
Yes would love someone (a pro) to hack her out alone. Problem is finding one i trust who isnt going to shout and scream at her and escalate the problem further. If anyone has any suggestions in the North East area please get in touch.

No not had the blood sample tested i did think about it but then wondered. I tried her one day at the yard and then she was vetted the week after - the blood samples are taken on that day of the vetting not the day i tried her so if she was sedated when i tried her there would be no need to sedate her for the vetting (if that makes any sense). She was feisty when i tried her both times at the yard but did nothing silly and i quite enjoyed the ride.
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Why would a good pro shout and scream? :confused:

Did you hack her on the day you tried her? Under what conditions?
 
Has she been kept on a yard with such small numbers before? With only one other for compant she may have become very clingy/insecure. Several yard moves in a short space of time could have unsettled her too.

One thing that jumped out at me is that you say you felt more confident in the school when she acted up as your instructor was there which sounds like you lack confidence in your self when on your own which she's picking up on.

Having known a few horses by Proset, they are renowned for being tricky/quirky and horses for pros not amateurs. Have heard of some that will lie down in protest, spin, bronc etc rather than work out an instruction or be "brave" about something. It may simply be your personalities don's suit - are you used to dealing with this type of horse?

Have you asked the original owners about the environment in which she was kept previously? Workload? Feed?

Good luck. Glad to hear the original owners are helping. How long had they owned her and what was their reason for sale? Would they be able to put you in touch with the riding instructor who bought her so you could try and find out more? Speak to the dealer maybe?
 
On the blood sample issue discuss with vets as I am sure it would still show up.Why would a pro shout and scream at her!they value their lives to much.I take it you hacked her out at the dealers?
 
TarrSteps said:
People are suggesting getting an experienced pro on her to suss out the bolting and see what the problem is with the hacking. If there is an identifiable issue in the school (saying she goes well means nothing, really - a mild reaction in the school can be a clue to a big one out hacking and part of the solution might very well be starting with that mild reaction) then the pro might work on that but obviously the goal would be to deal with the bolting and the hacking AND helping you afterwards.

What did your instructor find when she rode the horse? Did it hack okay with her? Has she seen you hack the mare?

I presume you bought the mare for dressage? I have no personal experience with Proset but dresage bred horses, as a group, tend to be on the sharp/hot end of the spectrum as the job demands it. (Carl is well known for linking them hot even by dressage standards!) Of course many are lovely temperaments and can cope with "real life" if managed approppitely for the job that's expected, although it's not always that simple. When you speak to the old owners make sure you ask about all their management and preferably get the horse's past rider on board so she/he can tell you what feels different.

As far as their being two months to unpick. . . That depends what happened. If she was hurt or traumatised in some way, that would happen in an instant - I have stood and watched (even been sitting on horses) in the second it went from okay to disastrous.

Anyway, the old owners are a good place to start. Hopefuly they will be able to shed some light on the subject.

Out of curiosity, what was your last horse? Do you have a fair bit of experience with highly bred young competition horses? I'm not casting aspersions, just looking at all the factors in play. :)
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Actually i bought her to get me thought the BS levels but she has converted me to dressage as we were doing so well in our lessons. My last horse was a big British Warmblood gelding. I had him from 7yrs old to 9yrs old when sadly I had to make the heartbreaking decision to have him put to sleep. He was a sj and we had our ups and downs mainly due to him being very moody and grumpy but other than that we had no real issues.
 
TarrSteps said:
Why would a good pro shout and scream? :confused:

Did you hack her on the day you tried her? Under what conditions?
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because this is what the last 'so called' good pro did. Sorry not had good experience with one a friend used for her horse. It seems harshness and force is a good start with some of them!

Yes i hacked her the day i tried her, which would have been the last week in September - i remember it being warm, sunny & relatively quiet on the roads. An experienced friend was walking close by (she was not always by her side) my mare stopped and looked at a couple of things for a second or so, but was not behind my leg.
 
popsdosh said:
On the blood sample issue discuss with vets as I am sure it would still show up.Why would a pro shout and scream at her!they value their lives to much.I take it you hacked her out at the dealers?
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Would it still show up a few days after? actually ive had a terrible thought, i seem to remember now he put off the vetting twice leaving it until a week later before she got vetted.

And sorry i do not know any good pros so i cant comment on that - as mentioned before the ones my friend tried with her horse just used force.
 
I have one like this. If some thing scares him out hacking or in the school he will set his neck, cross his jaw and run. He is much worse with a rider who demands more, with a novicy rider he is usually fine as they ride with less contact.
He is getting better but we have spent a lot of time hacking in company and gaining confidence before venturing out alone. He is always hacked in a correctly fitting martingale to enable us to stop him twisting his neck and running off. He improves every time he goes out.
We also started with very short hacks.
I know a pro set mare, its bloody tricky, they are renowned for being difficult I'm afraid.
 
MegaBeast said:
Has she been kept on a yard with such small numbers before? With only one other for compant she may have become very clingy/insecure. Several yard moves in a short space of time could have unsettled her too.

One thing that jumped out at me is that you say you felt more confident in the school when she acted up as your instructor was there which sounds like you lack confidence in your self when on your own which she's picking up on.

Having known a few horses by Proset, they are renowned for being tricky/quirky and horses for pros not amateurs. Have heard of some that will lie down in protest, spin, bronc etc rather than work out an instruction or be "brave" about something. It may simply be your personalities don's suit - are you used to dealing with this type of horse?

Have you asked the original owners about the environment in which she was kept previously? Workload? Feed?

Good luck. Glad to hear the original owners are helping. How long had they owned her and what was their reason for sale? Would they be able to put you in touch with the riding instructor who bought her so you could try and find out more? Speak to the dealer maybe?
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Thank you :) they sold her for personal but genuine reasons and they had bought her direct from the breeder when she was just 6 months old! so they've had her all that time and then yes she has moved to 3 new places in 2 months! bless her.

I have had some challenging horses in the past as i have always owned warmbloods - but no i am not very used to horses that lie down in protest, spin, bronc etc rather than work out an instruction or be "brave" about something. Ive dealt with the usual nappy/bolshy horses but nothing too extraordinary.
 
charlie76 said:
I have one like this. If some thing scares him out hacking or in the school he will set his neck, cross his jaw and run. He is much worse with a rider who demands more, with a novicy rider he is usually fine as they ride with less contact.
He is getting better but we have spent a lot of time hacking in company and gaining confidence before venturing out alone. He is always hacked in a correctly fitting martingale to enable us to stop him twisting his neck and running off. He improves every time he goes out.
We also started with very short hacks.
I know a pro set mare, its bloody tricky, they are renowned for being difficult I'm afraid.
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ho dear! and i had heard nothing but good things about Proset's offspring! :(
 
Talk to the vet about it the tests are getting ever more sensitive.They can even test hair samples and show up drug use months down the line.At least you know you would be looking for sedatives.
Whilst I have the chance nobody is questioning your ability riding just dont want to see you or horse hurt.
Having spoken to a couple of breeders of dressage horses Proset does have a certain reputation as a sire of quirky horses !
 
popsdosh said:
Whilst I have the chance nobody is questioning your ability riding just dont want to see you or horse hurt.
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Ditto!

No one is trying to cast aspersions. Nor are we saying you have a situation you can't fix yourself. But evidence is mounting that you have inadvertently bought a horses that is of a breeding known to be tricky, who has had some sort of unknown problem, and may possibly have been misrepresented to you. Again, not being there in person, we are all just guessing!! But there is also the chance this is not a "normal" situation and telling you to just try a few things and see what happens might not be good practice!

It's worth a conversation with the vet again, both about the vetting and in light of her behaviour now. And sit down with your instructor - get her on the horse for an opinion or, if she feels it's not really her area of expertise (perfectly justifiable) then ask her to find you someone who will sit on the horse. It might also be worth asking local breeders, racing stables and possibly event riders for recommendations.

It can be multipronged. I've had one to work with recently with a similar issue that needed physio and a change in riding, including regular sessions with a more confident rider and instruction for the owner. Another needed hock injections and a change in management, including a change in job. Another needed a neck injury attended to and a change in living accommodations. Another needed fairly extensive retraining including some postural reeducation. Another responded well to long reining. Yet another needed a completely bonkers new owner who didn't mind getting dumped quite a lot (despite being a very good rider) but is now having great competitive success. My point is there is no one right answe until you know what is causing the issue in the first place.
 
Thank u everyone and I understand that no one is questioning my ability - I posted on here for advice and opinions and that is what I have got - no offence taken what so ever.

I think I've already made the decision to find her a more suitable home :( and I am looking more along these lines now - i just cant see how we would over come this! however i understand ive had a terrible day & its a new day tomorrow plus i will no more next week after the previous owners have paid a visit and the horsemanship guy has been out.

I think on that note it's time for bed (sigh) if I can ever get any sleep!
 
My pony sounds very similar to yours in that things frighten her easily and she takes action. It used to be spooking but now includes taking off. I can usually stop her after 4 or 5 strides, but it scares us both.

She was extremely spooky as a youngster, and then improved massively in middle age. Now she's in her late teens and we've been doing a lot less competitively and I've noticed the hacking/spooking get worse!

I am in the same situation as you, (and Kelpie) private yard, no one to hack with.

We have had some very close shaves down the lane from where my yard is based, some of those caused by Rosie herself being an idiot and some by nearly being run over, so I realise that Rosie associates that ride with bad experiences.

The final straw was in March 2012, a lorry hit overhead tree branches at speed as it sped past us and Rosie turned tail and fled.

I didn't hack out from home for 6 months after that, then tried again recently and Rosie almost had a panic attack stepping out of the gate.

So, now we only travel out by trailer to hack - which is a right pain. She's fine hacking on quiet lanes in another area, just not on my lanes!

I tried various bit changes and pieces of equipment such as draw reins (head up high and nose in chest and even less control) and a Market Harborough which did help a lot in keeping her head carriage more naturally low. But ultimately, she's terrified and there's no getting away from that fact.

She's better in company but still not perfect. She bolted with a friend riding her when a dog barked at us through a hedge - I was on my youngster. That wasn't much fun either.

So I suggest giving yourself some time off the pressure of hacking, and can you box out to other places and ride with people??

Good luck
 
To me its simple. I spent 3 years trying to get on with a mare I bought from a Professional as a schoolmistress. Brilliant to jump, brilliant to school but a nightmare to hack. With or without company. Bolted everywhere...even up and across gardens if the thought entered her head.

She effectively closed us down to be only able to school in small enclosed fields on quiet days after she had been out all night.

She would drop her shoulder, swerve, bolt, whatever she could to get me off. Regardless of where she was and her own safety.

I tried everything. Im no numpty either and rode her to Medium dressage. I had her ovaries scanned, her blood tested, her body scanned, several lameness work outs (she was never lame), we had every saddle tried and tested, her teeth repeatedly attended to by various EDTs and were getting nowhere fast.

She wrecked my confidence. Its something I will NEVER get back even though my next horse (and only other horse as Ive since given up riding him after 15 years of hunting and enjoying him) was a saint. Every time he spooked, I was right back there.

My non-rider hubby took her on when I finally gave up..after years of having weekly instructors pat me on the head and say "she looks amazing, stick with it". He took her out on a 100 acre field and she bolted. Unluckily for her, he loved it. He took her out every day for 2 weeks, and galloped her around that field inviting her to take off.

The first few days were frightening to watch.

And then she started to wonder what the point of running off was. Swerving didnt shift old velcro bum and if she swerved, he kept swerving her right back again. And slowly the penny dropped.

She became his soul mate until she was put down a few years ago aged 26. A happy old soldier who was loved to the end.

But the cost of all that was ME. I was lucky, apart from the odd bruise and a bit of concussion... I managed to swerve major injury despite her firing me into fences, trees and head first into the sand on a daily basis.

It ruined my confidence. It robbed me of the thrill of competing.

PLEASE consider whether this is something you want to persevere with. You only get one life.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do (((hugs)))
 
TarrSteps said:
While I agree, today might not be the day to make a long term decision, the OP has just dodged quite a large bullet. ;) Not acknowledging that, or somehow pretending it won't happen again soon, is likely to end in tears.

I'm going to add my voice to popdosh, Booboos etc. Get someone experienced to look at the situation and advise on what they see, feel, and know. Internet advice can be useful but in cases like this your margins are very small and while you might be get a few chances to try out different ideas, you might also not be as lucky the next time as you were today.

In the original post you say yourself that part of the problem is you don't know WHY she is reacting the way she is and this, frankly, is why no one on the internet can properly advise you. She might very well lack confidence and be naturally reactive - her age, breeding and current situation would all go to that. BUT - and it's a big one - we can't see her so we can't tell! It's easy to get a few pieces of information and make assumptions. Not saying it's anything to do with your case but I've now met an increasing number of horses with similar reactions who are in pain in ways that aren't obvious but can cause severe reactions. Neck injuries are a particular question mark and would not be flagged on a vetting unless there was something obvious and fairly advanced. Horses can have visions issues. Sore feet can make horses very reactive on the road. (I rode one horse who was considered nappy just for the sake of it. Turned out he was bilaterally lame in front and reacted to the fact that the only route off the yard was steeply downhill on tarmac. Horses aren't stupid.)

Riding can be an issue. I've known a few horses that hacked very well on a loose rein, but could not cope with the rider restricting the neck (various possible causes). Others are better hacked "on the hand", even quite strongly so at times. We can't see you, we can't see her so we can't tell.

Sorry, I know I'm not being helpful! But I don't think it's as simple as just building confidence when you've already had some very close calls. She might very well need - and only need - training and a confident ride, but even if that is the case, it sounds like you both need someone else's help to get there SAFELY.

(I know lots of people take risks and they work out. That's part of riding! But taking serious risks on a public road, where other people will likely be affected, is, as you recognise yourself, playing with fire.)
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Oh my goodness, what a great response :). Also, massive lightbulb moment for me . . . my own horse became really nappy out hacking after having been a delight . . . all hacking required roadwork. Eventually, after we had moved yards, he went intermittently lame and we diagnosed navicular in both fronts. Where we are now there's no roadwork at all . . . and he is MUCH better/happier to hack (he has also received treatment for his navicular issues). I wonder if the two are related?

Food for thought - thanks TarrSteps.

P
P
 
There is nothing wrong with deciding a horse is not for you and finding it a more suitable home...the only problem is whether the horse is re-homable in its current state, would anyone want her if you honestly described the situation, and would you be able to find her a decent home under the circumstances (setting aside the question of whether you'd make your money back from her)?

If she were mine I would:
- get the vet to run the bloods
- decide if I wanted to cut my loses there and then. If yes return her to the dealer, he has to take her back as she is unsuitable for what you bought her for, and he has to refund you. You may have to get legal advice to make all that happen but you should be able to if you insist.
- or decide to get to the bottom of things.

If you want to get to the bottom of her problems firstly you need a full vet workup in light of her issues to check there is no underlying physical cause. Then you need a professional you trust to give her a full ridden assessment. 'Schooling' does not just refer to flat work in a school, it can equally mean teaching a horse to hack safely. Professionals don't standardly scream and shout, that is a very odd approach. Get someone experienced on board who can assess whether the mare needs more positive riding, or a softly-softly approach and whether this is something you can do or whether you need help. It may well be that the mare needs a couple of months re-training by a professional.

A couple of months down the line you would then have a horse whose problems have been addressed and you can either realistically find her a good home or keep her for yourself.
 
I wonder if the horse was simply too much for riding Instructor, hence the part ex. I also wonder if the horse simply needs a job to do.....

What did you buy the horse to do?
 
amymay said:
I wonder if the horse was simply too much for riding Instructor, hence the part ex. I also wonder if the horse simply needs a job to do.....

What did you buy the horse to do?
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Possibly too much for the instructor - i bought her to get me thought the BS levels eventually but as mentioned before she converted me to dressage as our flatwork lessons were going so well.
 
Is there any chance horse is bored ? If u just focus on schooling is the horse seeing open spaces as a way to let off steam, have u tried mixing up routine, flatwork, pole work, jumping, trip to beach etc?
 
showpony said:
Is there any chance horse is bored ? If u just focus on schooling is the horse seeing open spaces as a way to let off steam, have u tried mixing up routine, flatwork, pole work, jumping, trip to beach etc?
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i dont think she is bored. She loves her work and she would keep going forever and a day. We only had one lesson per week (45 mins) the rest of the week consists of hacking (or it did). The lessons were an hours hack away as well.
 
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