HELP!! sorry another post about the new trailer law!!

mahonenx said:
Hi,

I passed my driving test in 1999 so needed to do a trailer test and did this a few years ago.

You need to do a trailer test for all trailers which have are over 750kgs. All horse trailers are in this category

The 3.5kg is the lorry test and you would additionally need that if you wanted to drive a lorry. Or a combined weight if the trailer is less than 750kg.

To know whether a car can tow - the maximum towing capacity of the car MUST exceed the horse + unladen weight of the trailer - if it doesn't, then its illegal.
Because its the unladen weight of the trailer, it doesn't matter if you remove the centre partition etc, because its legal based on the plate. You can however, apply for a reduction on the plated unladen weight in some cases.

Try these websites:

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521

So in summary, there are two laws to consider:

1) Trailer test - If you passed after jan 1997, then you need a test to tow over 750kg (all horse trailers)
2) Car MTC must exceed trailer plated capacity + horse & equipment

Hope this helps.

natalie
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Christ all mighty!!!! how many times!!!!! Small trailers ARE NOT LEGALY plated that is for hgvs.. and you even put a link up that correctly says you can not exceed the max towing capacity of the vehicle so regardless of the design weight of the trailer you must not exceed what your car can tow, and you CAN tow a partily loaded trailer ..... yes even if it couldent tow it fully loaded to its design weight ...
 
mcnaughty said:
You really need to contact VOSA and get the legal requirements - my understanding was that the law has changed recently.

Your car needs to weigh more (see log book for details I believe) than the trailer's MAM weight (I believe this is the maximum laden weight) - it does not matter if you only ever carry a trailer full of cotton wool balls - if VOSA pull you over at the side of the road and find your trailer plate shows your MAM is higher than your vehicle weight you will get fined.

I believe this is because there are not many weighbridges around when you need them so cannot prove your trailer (with whatever you are carrying) is less than your car. They take the plate details as read and do you if the maths do not add up....

But I would reitterate - you need to speak to VOSA and not people on this forum....
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why speak to VOSA they do not make laws they are only inforcement
DVLA are about licences for people and vehicles!! If you want the facts you need to contact the Department for transport....Oh and have you any evidence that vosa have prosicuted anyone sucsefully for this, and without weigh bridge evidence how could they do you for a overloding offence ???
 
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perfect11s said:
why speak to VOSA they do not make laws they are only inforcement
DVLA are about licences for people and vehicles!! If you want the facts you need to contact the Department for transport....Oh and have you any evidence that vosa have prosicuted anyone sucsefully for this, and without weigh bridge evidence how could they do you for a overloding offence ???
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Who rattled your cage Perfect? As I said - unless YOU are an expert on this subject I suggest the OP contacts the relevant authority - I believe this is VOSA - I am not an expert, hence the go and speak to an expert quote.

The DVLA do not stop you at the side of the road and fine you if you are doing something wrong with regard to trailer weights - it is VOSA or the Police. The Police do not have to be present.

If anyone has any queries you can contact VOSA on this email: technical.officers@vosa.gov.uk.
 
I would personaly consider perfect 11,s somthing of an expert on the subject.The matter in contention here ,as I have explained is not one of "construction and use" but Driver licensing. It is a DVLA matter. Vosa may well pass on information to the police and DVLA ,but none of these organisations "fine" you. Only the courts can do that. Furthermore it is the courts that determine the law.
 
Mike007 said:
I would personaly consider perfect 11,s somthing of an expert on the subject.The matter in contention here ,as I have explained is not one of "construction and use" but Driver licensing. It is a DVLA matter. Vosa may well pass on information to the police and DVLA ,but none of these organisations "fine" you. Only the courts can do that. Furthermore it is the courts that determine the law.
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Thanks Mike you also seem to have a reasonble grasp of these laws, I dont consider myself an expert but I did spend a fair
amout of time looking at towing laws with a view to importing goose neck
horse trailers, if anyone wants to find out the facts speak with someone at the dept for transport in london I forget the guys name but it was amazing what he knew and had answers to some realy obscure questions about C&U ,braking systems , weight, width etc
these are the goverment department who deal with the law relating to road transport and will give the legal low down .....
 
mcnaughty said:
Who rattled your cage Perfect? As I said - unless YOU are an expert on this subject I suggest the OP contacts the relevant authority - I believe this is VOSA - I am not an expert, hence the go and speak to an expert quote.

The DVLA do not stop you at the side of the road and fine you if you are doing something wrong with regard to trailer weights - it is VOSA or the Police. The Police do not have to be present.

If anyone has any queries you can contact VOSA on this email: technical.officers@vosa.gov.uk.
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Who
rattled my cage ??? you did !!! by posting a load of rubbish and trying to belittle
people who have a basic understanding of towing laws :D... hey have a nice day ....
 
Hopefully I can provide some clarity to the regulations. I’ll warn you that this will be quite a long post because it deals with some complex legislation so you may want to go and get a coffee and sandwich before you start.

Because legislation develops over time many terms are used and different pieces of legislation use different criteria for example unladen weight, actual weight and Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) are all used and mean very different things.

I’ll start with Plates that are required to be fitted to vehicles. Ignoring the chassis number plate, there are basically two types of plate, which is fitted depends largely on the size of the vehicle.

The Manufactures Plate is fitted to pretty much everything manufactured on or after 01/01/1968. What that Plate needs to display is governed by some very complex legislation. Probably easiest to just accept that it’s there and many manufacturers will put them on a vehicle even if it isn’t legally required. There are a few exemptions to the requirements to fit Manufacturers Plates; ‘Dual Purpose’ vehicles do not require them. These are usually 4x4s and some estate cars are ‘dual purpose.’ Trailers with a MAM not exceeding 750kg do not have to have a Manufacturers Plate, but many do.

Ministry Plates apply to Goods Vehicles where the MAM exceeds 3500kg. It also applies to trailers where the unladen weight exceeds 1020kg. However, there is an exemption that excludes trailers that are fitted with only parking and overrun brakes (most horse trailers). Overrun brakes operate by a series of mechanical levers attached to the brake and part of the tow hitch. As the vehicle slows down, the trailer pushes on the mechanism in the tow hitch which moves the levers and applies the trailer brake. These brakes may only be fitted to trailers where the MAM does not exceed 3500kg. Over that weight, power brakes, usually air operated are required. Ministry Plates are issued by the Department for Transport and the weights shown on them overrule those shown on any Manufacturers Plate fitted.

I’ll use a real world example of things; my Shogun LWB and Equi-Trek Space Treka L trailer. The Manufacturers Plate on the Shogun tells me that the Gross Weight is 2810kg (vehicle+load) and the Train Weight is 6200kg (vehicle+load+trailer+load). The Equi-Trek has a Manufacturers Plate which tells me the Gross weight is 2600kg, the unladen weight is 1200kg I know following a trip to a weighbridge.

If we think about driving licences first.

Category B allows me to drive a vehicle with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg. I can drive the Shogun without a problem as its’ MAM is only 2810kg. The Category B also allows me to drive a vehicle with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg towing a trailer with a MAM not exceeding 750kg. Clearly if I have cat B I cannot legally drive the Shogun and Equi-Trek combination as the MAM of the trailer (2600kg) exceeds the limit of 750kg.

This is the bit where people get confused. Cat B also allows me to drive a vehicle under 3500kg MAM towing a trailer with a MAM exceeding 750kg BUT the maximum authorised combination weight cannot exceed 3500kg AND the MAM of the trailer cannot exceed the unladen weight of the vehicle. The combination weight is the sum of the gross weights. It is to try and comply with this derogation that most trailers are ‘downplated’ (their authorised weights are reduced and a new Manufacturers Plate fitted), the trailer is then towed behind a car or other light vehicle. Clearly this isn’t going to work for the Shogun but if I use a Subaru Outback as an example, you’ll get the idea. The Gross weight of the Subaru is 2040kg and the unladen weight 1534kg. If I take the Gross weight from 3500 I’m left with 1460kg (according to my calculator). This weight is also less than the unladen weight of the Subaru so I can legally drive this combination with a category B licence. Now all I have to do is find a trailer with a Gross Weight of 1460kg or have a heavier trailer downplated, although there is a danger in doing this – I’ll mention it later.

Category B+E. This allows me to drive a vehicle with a Gross Weight not exceeding 3500kg towing a trailer with a MAM exceeding 750kg. This perfectly describes the Shogun / Equi-Trek combination. Now the problem that we know is that when you take your car (cat B) test now you only get cat B, whilst those that took their cat B test before 01/01/1997 got B+E. They also got C1 which allows you to drive vehicles with a MAM exceeding 3500kg and not exceeding 7500kg, but that is a whole different story and not one I’m going into here.
In conclusion, with driver licensing we deal with theoretical maximum weights, usually found on a Plate of some description. We do not deal with what the vehicle actually weighs at the time.

Now Construction and Use. Here we deal with what the vehicle actually weighs compared with what it is allowed to weigh. I find myself agreeing with Perfect11 in that there is no Regulation that says the laden weight of a trailer cannot exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle for light vehicles. Also the ’80 per cent rule’ is a ‘rule of thumb’ and is not Law. You are quite entitled to draw a trailer with a MAM greater than the permitted towing weight of the vehicle. However, you may not have a trailer that actually weighs more than the permitted towing weight.

A quick example. The Shogun has a permitted towing weight of 3300kg. I can legally tow a trailer with a MAM of 3500kg, it just cannot exceed an actual weight of 3300kg. The fact that there isn’t a local weighbridge to check doesn’t matter to enforcement A VOSA Examiner or an (authorised) Police Constable have the legal power to direct your vehicle to a weighbridge to check weigh it. If the vehicle (and trailer if one is being towed) is found to be within the limits shown on the relevant Plates and you were taken more than 5 miles off your intended route, then you are entitled to claim compensation. If you have exceeded any of the Plated weights then you will have a problem. The vehicle will be prohibited from further movement until the weight(s) have been adjusted and you face either a Fixed Penalty or a trip to Court. If the authorised weights are exceeded by something like 30 per cent or more then you face the much more serious charge of ‘using vehicle in dangerous condition,’ basically bigger fines, points on licence and potentially disqualification.

The downplating problem I mentioned earlier has particular relevance here. If we think about my Subaru and trailer example for a moment, say I downplate the Equi-Trek from 2600Kg to 1460kg so that I may tow it behind the Subaru and drive with only a cat B licence. The MAM of the trailer is now only 1460kg and if I exceed this I’m in trouble. Now we know that the unladen weight of the trailer is 1200kg so the maximum weight of the trailer load is now 1460-1200=260kg. Compare that with the previous payload of 2600-1200=1400kg and you get an idea of the problem. Alright this is an extreme example but it’s a good illustration of the difficulty folk get themselves into. To give you an idea, my Bertha weighs 672kg (she’s a big lass) which means if I stuck her in the downplated trailer I’d exceed the MAM of 1460 by some 412kg, that works out as 28 per cent and may get me into the realms of ‘dangerous condition.’ It certainly would if the vehicle was involved in an incident and that could be attributed to the excess weight. Please note I’m not in trouble with regard to my driving licence as the plated weights allow me to drive the vehicle and licensing legislation refers to ‘Authorised Mass’ or plated weights.

Well, congratulation to all those that made it this far. Just to add I work for one of the organisations mentioned and have spent quite some time reading the legislation surrounding this and other areas of transport legislation. All I can say is that if you’re in any doubt about what you can or cannot do please ask. If it’s driver licensing talk to DVLA, if it’s vehicle weights, o-licensing or drivers hours try VOSA or a Police Traffic Officer or DfT, but remember all of those either write or enforce the legislation, only a Court may actually interpret what has been passed by Parliament. Just don’t drive down the road in ignorance, in the best case it’ll probably end in Court in the worst cases it will mean a smashed vehicle and trailer a prized animal dead or seriously injured and you still in Court – seen it happen too many times.

Thanks for reading and have a safe journey
 
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GeeBee45..................thankyou for the post, it was nice to read some sense etc...................

off topic "Bera" does she come with pics?
 
Wow - thanks GeeBee45 - that must have taken some time to type up.. I found VOSA very helpful on that email I gave earlier if anyone wants to confirm their own personal calculations are OK.
 
perfect11s said:
Who
rattled my cage ??? you did !!! by posting a load of rubbish and trying to belittle
people who have a basic understanding of towing laws :D... hey have a nice day ....
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So, please, which part of my post was belittleing you or anyone else? Please get a grip on reality and try reading posts before spouting *****. I stand by my statement that people should be contacting VOSA -yes they are one of the official bodies that enforce this law - to ensure their own personal situation is legal. I have posted an email address above to which they respond very quickly.
 
GeeBee 45, thank you for your in depth reply but I fear that you too have fallen into the trap of trying to link MAM with design weights in the absence of a ministry plate. MAM is a concept. It is the maximum weight that the vehicle may legaly transmit to the road within the UK. A number of factors determine the MAM, but it is not given by the manufacturers plate EVER. It may be equal or less than the manufacturers plate, but it is not GIVEN by that plate. This is why the concept of down plating the manufacturers plate is such a nonsense. The MAM is the lowest of ALL the weight limits applicable through all the legeslation.
For those interested ,I took this matter up with the DVLA this afternoon. They informed me that there was no need to downplate the trailer,and that it is the physical weights that count with regard to the B category license.The rquirements are:
1)your trailer and load does not exceed the UNLADEN weight of your towing vehicle
2) The combination of LADEN towing vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3.5 tonnes .
3)The weight of laden trailer does not exceed the stated capacity of the towing vehicle
4)The weight of the trailer does not exceed the manufacturers design weights.
Comply with the above and you have nothing to worry about on a B license.I hope this finaly clears the matter up.
 
Mike007 said:
GeeBee 45, thank you for your in depth reply but I fear that you too have fallen into the trap of trying to link MAM with design weights in the absence of a ministry plate. MAM is a concept. It is the maximum weight that the vehicle may legaly transmit to the road within the UK. A number of factors determine the MAM, but it is not given by the manufacturers plate EVER. It may be equal or less than the manufacturers plate, but it is not GIVEN by that plate. This is why the concept of down plating the manufacturers plate is such a nonsense. The MAM is the lowest of ALL the weight limits applicable through all the legeslation.
For those interested ,I took this matter up with the DVLA this afternoon. They informed me that there was no need to downplate the trailer,and that it is the physical weights that count with regard to the B category license.The rquirements are:
1)your trailer and load does not exceed the UNLADEN weight of your towing vehicle
2) The combination of LADEN towing vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3.5 tonnes .
3)The weight of laden trailer does not exceed the stated capacity of the towing vehicle
4)The weight of the trailer does not exceed the manufacturers design weights.
Comply with the above and you have nothing to worry about on a B license.I hope this finaly clears the matter up.
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Very well put there mike, no nonsense, easy to follow!! Pity direct.gov haven't put it like that on their website, do you know why they do quote MAM of the trailer???!!! As there are so many threads like this could you email this to horse and hound adminstration and see if they'll put it as sticky???? Would be very helpful for future reference.....

Cheers x
 
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competitiondiva said:
Very well put there mike, no nonsense, easy to follow!! Pity direct.gov haven't put it like that on their website, do you know why they do quote MAM of the trailer???!!! As there are so many threads like this could you email this to horse and hound adminstration and see if they'll put it as sticky???? Would be very helpful for future reference.....

Cheers x
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Thank you to everyone who took so much time to sort that all out. I feel really bad for asking the question now! Especially as it wasn't even my post.
 
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