Help - Untouched 3yo - Aggression

C

chevaux

New User
Joined
19 September 2011
Messages
7
Visit site
Hi. Wondered if anyone had any specific advice.

I have had and broken many untouched youngsters before, but recently bought two, one of which is proving more of a challenge than i am used to. Both are 3yo, completely unhandled and have been moved/gelded etc through cattle crush at last home. One has read the book and after 3 days is halter broken, ties, leads, loads, backs and yeilds hind quarters. The other i have never seen anything like him!

If you walk in the stable he will lunge and bite, and kick. he is clearly terrified, but i cant seem to break this barrier with him. If you offer food/treats from your hand he pins his ears back, and gets very aggitated, so no treat based system will work either. Normally i am simply quiet and non threatening, and this breaks down the barrier, but if i just stand in the stable, his curiousity gets the better of him and he comes towards me, but the slightest movement from me causes an explosion of aggression. Hence he is not safe to be enclosed with. So i tried the glove on a stick routine over the side of the stable. He is fine for me to touch him everywhere with that - face, ears, belly, back legs - no problem. So i went back in the stable with the stick, and i can get within about 4 ft if i have the stick. But as soon as i try to work down the stick he becomes aggressive again.

He knows i bring him hay and dinners, and waits by the door when i come by, the problems start as soon as i open the stable door, or even put my hand inside. As i say - i am used to frightened youngsters, i can read body language, and know when to back off and let them think about the lesson.

Am totally at a loss with this one - i wondered if anyone has had any similar natured youngsters, and what they did to break down the defences.

Thanks in advance.
 
No experience I'm afraid, but I would just say to take it slowly and eventually he'll come round. Dont push him and let him come to you (maybe with his bucket of food?). Please keep us posted.
 
With a risk of being labelled a 'bunny hugger' here, dare I suggest he could be in pain?

I say this because I have a young horse that was aggressive and apparently was aggressive as an unbroken youngster too.
It now transpires after months of tears and pain (on my part) that actually he had a severe chronic imjury - likely sustained as a foal and he was in constant nagging pain. Hence his aggressive moody temperament. We have now fixed the pain and the horse is no longer aggressive despite I might add 'trainers trying to beat the aggression out of him'!!!

I personally would try a trial of bute - giving him a couple a day to see if he improves at all. Failing that (and I will get shot down for this one) try an animal communication to get to the bottom of his problem. You could also try clicker training - just to stay safe. I used it when my horse was aggressive to make him back away when I wanted to give him a feed.

Ask any horse behaviourist and they will tell you that the horse being a flight animal will NOT waste energy being aggressive to a human with no good reason. There generally has to be an underlying reason like pain or abuse or a tumour. A vicious horse is very rare.
Good Luck and keep us posted! :)
 
Thanks YasandCrystal, Interesting point that i hadnt considered. I agree wholeheartedly that horses are rarely viscious. I will try a little bute and see if that makes any difference. At the moment i couldnt even get the vet near him. I suspect that now the poor petrified lad is now 'trapped' in the stable he is using the only thing left. I have just never seen it manifest itself so dramatically. I would happily use clicker training for specific problems with youngsters, but i have no way in which to reward him (food, contact etc all impossible).

Will try bute if no improvement over the next day or so.

Many thanks.
 
Yep....I've got one like this, totally unhandled until about 2 months ago when I got him. Turns out he can't handle confined spaces yet. I got a headcollar on him, tied a short length of baling string to it and turned him out in a little paddock. I won him over with food and found I could catch him fairly easily. He ties up outside and is slowly getting used to being touched. At first going anywhere near his back end resulted in both feet coming at me. The other day I finally managed to brush out a bit of his tail. Its a long old road and we'll be doing everything outside until he really trusts me.
Just as an aside...you didn't get him from a stud production sale recently did you???
Oh, mine is 4, 15.2 and built like a proverbial outhouse, I'd never win an argument with him so I do my utmost not to get into one!
Good luck :)
 
Oh, forgot to mention, we popped a rope halter on him to get him out of the stable. There was no way I could have managed to get a headcollar on him. Once he was out then we popped a headcollar on....
 
No direct advice but the 2 best horsemen I've ever come across are these 2 guys. One is in Oz and one is in Japan. They are first class horsemen and have the perfect mix of tough but fair. They understand tough love and last chance saloon. Watch their vids to get the idea of just how good they are. The reason I mention them specifically though is because they'll both respond to direct questions, so you could email them to ask for advice. Best of luck.

http://www.horseproblems.com.au/ (watch the vid about feeding, which is about dealing with a cocky young horse - not aggressive like yours but will give you a feel for his approach http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Feeding your horse.htm)


http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink
 
Agree with YandC.
My only other option would be using a round pen - if you have one. The famous old Monty's join-up? Appreciate not everyone has the facilities mind. And of course how to get horse safely from stable to pen may be an issue!
Do you have a barn?? Maybe a bigger space will give you both a better area to work? Is he friends with the other youngster? Can you not use him to help you get close?
Just throwing ideas at you!!

Failing all the above, sometimes it is no bad thing to put hands up and call in the pro's. Kelly Marks is very good at these sorts of wild ones.
 
Have you got something older you could turn him out with,it depends on your facilities but if he could learn to follow come into a small area for feeding and gradually build up trust in you,they can learn a lot by example.
 
He is my kinda horseman (ozzy dude) I like him a lot.

I pretty much do this with both mine (old horse you just say manners and he stands at the back of stable)
 
Hello - yes, I have one of these at home! He behaved exactly as you describe when he first arrived.
Here is my post of today, frankly patting myself on the back for how far he has come:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=484879
It has taken a total of 4 months for him to get this far (of which I've had ownership for 2.5 mths and was observing/assisting the first month and a half)
Are you able to turn him out at all? Has he had any known experience of being in a herd? Mine had been left to go feral away from other horses so was severely lacking in horse skills and people skills and had had to use all his wits to fend for himself. Virtually all of his limited human interaction had either been traumatic or controlled by him by aggressive behaviour. Therefore he was utterly distrustful and really scared and this resulted in an insecure dominant behaviour pattern that was downright dangerous.
After he was able to eventually integrate into a small herd of suitable horses (on his first attempt with a more dominant herd he refused to submit and was beaten up and run out of the field) he learned some horse skills which I think was vital for putting him back in touch with his horse instincts and calmed him down quite a bit. He also stopped any threatening behaviour towards humans in the field (unless you were asking him to do anything more complicated than just stand and graze by you), presumably because he wasn't feeling so paranoid and isolated and had some security from a friendly herd.
Mine has taken a lot of patience to get to this point...not to mention a day-by-day attitude...definitely two steps forward, one step back.
But its definitely worth persisting, he is coming on, not exactly in leaps and bounds but step by step and I think he will eventually be an amazing horse.
Hope this helps!
 
Try some Pax it does work with some horses(not all) worth ago.He sounds like he's been through a really rough patch in his life, maybe being gelded wasn't pain free or badly handled. (find out) he certainly doesn't like the human race at the moment and from the sounds of it I wouldn't blame him, Time if you have it is a wonderful healer.
 
I agree that it is never easy when you have a horse like this. It could be that he feels cornered in a stable and might be easier in a small paddock but if he isn't then getting him out of the paddock could be another matter!

If he is slightly better out of the stable then I would walk him in hand, let him graze (if he will because if he is to worried then he won't)

If you know how to do it correctly then join up might be the answer but not all horses will respond to it. (before anyone says that is rubbish MR himself told me he had come across a few he could not work with and I have seen Richard Maxwell refuse to work with one mare who came at him and meant it)

Whatever way it will take time. I would do everything with him outside of the stable as he seems to be more relaxed there than inside.

Good luck to you! Funny thing is that once these horses do trust you they come on in leaps and bounds.

Be safe.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
No direct advice but the 2 best horsemen I've ever come across are these 2 guys. One is in Oz and one is in Japan. They are first class horsemen and have the perfect mix of tough but fair. They understand tough love and last chance saloon. Watch their vids to get the idea of just how good they are. The reason I mention them specifically though is because they'll both respond to direct questions, so you could email them to ask for advice. Best of luck.

http://www.horseproblems.com.au/ (watch the vid about feeding, which is about dealing with a cocky young horse - not aggressive like yours but will give you a feel for his approach http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Feeding your horse.htm)


http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink
Click to expand...

Oh yes ditto this Endospink is my fav. He is a brilliant horseman - so cool and calm and fair! Love his rearer vids :)
 
Echo Bravo said:
Try some Pax it does work with some horses(not all) worth ago.He sounds like he's been through a really rough patch in his life, maybe being gelded wasn't pain free or badly handled. (find out) he certainly doesn't like the human race at the moment and from the sounds of it I wouldn't blame him, Time if you have it is a wonderful healer.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. But you can also buy lavender aromatherapy oil cheaply and soak rag and tie it somewhere in his stable/field shelter/fence post. I used several aroma oils and offered them to my horse. If you tie several rags with different oils your horse can self medicate. They are really good - Caroline Ingraham wrote one of those photo guide books to using aromatherapy oils with horses. Do not underestimate the power of smell. Pax is quite expensive and is a blended spray of several soothing calming oils such as lavender and geranium, camomile etc.
 
Thanks all. Lots of things to try once I can get him out of stable. This morning I went in to feed but kept the bucket in my hand. Usual response: straight to back of stable ears pinned back, jibbing, pawing threatening with back end. So I just stayed still and let him posture. Took 15 mins but he did come and eat and I got one hand on his neck without him escalating. When I went back to get water bucket he stayed at the stable door and for the first time he sniffed and touched my coat with getting upset. The moral of this story? Patience! I think the other 1 came round so quick I may have expected too much from this very frightened boy. I'll let you know how we progress but felt like we swam the channel today. Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll build these in as he's ready. I'm sure horses were created to remind us there is always more to learn!
 
How about putting a sedative in his feed,I say this to remove all fear from the situation, then when he is a bit dopey, try & break through this handling barrier. keep handling him while he as he gets more awake, keep on if he allows it for as long as you can manage, hours if you can. Now & then take a step back from him, then go in close again. Make the steps back further so that he gets the idea of someone walking to him. You might need another session to gradually getting this scenario of handling, stepping back, handling to the stage where you come through the stable door & handle etc. Don't rush him, don't frighten him, go slow, so slow & fingers crossed. I apologise if I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs on this one.
 
i had 2 ponies that were completely unhandled and very wild, the one came around very quick and i could go and sit in the stable on his hay with a bucket of feed and he happily came up to me, i was able to touch him so long as i didn't do a sudden movement or make eye contact. compared to my other one he was an absolute poppet.

my other one was older (possibly about 2yrs old) and he was a complete nutter, i couldn't go in the stable with him as he would attack, he would go for me over the door as well. i realised this was starting to shake my confidence so my OH worked with him, he's bigger (but very calm) and doesn't care if he gets kicked or bitten. he was able to give him treats over the door straight away with no problems, he could go in the stable and just stand there with a bucket of feed and each time my pony went to take a nibble he would have to brush past my OH's hand/arm (he held it out or kept it on the opposite side of the bucket). to start with he would shoot back to the rear of the stable but because my OH never even flinched the pony realised that it wasn't an issue.

we were lucky that we had stables inside a barn so we could shut the gate to the barn and let them out for a run inside the barn. again my OH would sit there with a bucket of treats while i mucked out and eventually the pony realised he wasn't a bad person.

when we finally got a headcollar on him it was so much easier, but what we did find is that this particular pony got scared if we were gentle with him, as in a gentle stroke on the neck or a pat, if we gave him a firm pat and 'hugged' his neck he was happier. where as the other one would freak if we were 'rough' with him.

it all takes time and only you can decide how to progress as you know the layout of your yard, maybe worth seeing if there is a bloke around who won't scare him but will just stand there in silence, might work.
 
Keeping him stabled will not be helping the situation, he’s obviously nervous, stressed and feeling very defensive, it’s like putting a feral cat in a cage, stick your hand in there to try and tame it and you’re going to loose a finger!

If he’s not been handled before and has joined a new environment and been put indoors you are flooding him with too much to deal with, turn him out with a horse that is well handled and is very social with people, let him soak it all up in his own time, then when he starts to come to come round, then start handling him.
 
I'd just keep up (loads of) advance and retreat, and A+R with the hand on the stick; and give him time to adjust to not being scared. He isn't untouched, he's remedial from the small amount of handling he's had, so he needs to realise you're not scary :)

Do you have a small paddock you could heard him in and out of safely so he's not in all the time? been turned out will give him a bit of a mental break and let the adrenalin come down...
 
OP - glad to hear your update..that's exactly how my boy inched towards progress..would also agree with pretty much all of the suggestions since your update...would also agree that being in may be really hard for him as it was with my boy, but on the other hand it did give him the opportunity to deal with his issue with humans close-up which he then got a chance to process once he went out and had his horse issues to deal with! Maybe the same with your boy - they have so much on their plate horses like this..so slow and steady, as you are doing with him is the only way to go.
Has anyone had much success with homeopathic remedies for this type of horse? (Those that like alternatives that is). I've not tried them with my boy though I use them a lot at home so would be interested to hear if anyone has used them. Not meaning to hog thread, sounds like it might help OP.
By the way, whenever my boy has to come in or is building up to a big new scary (farrier/vet) etc I splashed out and got some Magnitude for him and cycle it with a tiny handful of food (v prone to be food aggressive) and this does seem to take the edge of his frayed nerves. Might help yours OP if you've not already thought of this..?
 
air78 said:
I'd just keep up (loads of) advance and retreat, and A+R with the hand on the stick; and give him time to adjust to not being scared. He isn't untouched, he's remedial from the small amount of handling he's had, so he needs to realise you're not scary :)

PS yes agree with this...pressure and release really works with my boy it does seem to be a 'language' that he understands, despite having so few skills at the beginning
Click to expand...
 
Hi Chevaux,

I was just wondering where you got these 2 from, I know of 2 that were sold together fairly recently from cornwall, just wondered if they could be the same 2.

PM me if you would prefer. :)
 
Kenzo said:
Keeping him stabled will not be helping the situation, he’s obviously nervous, stressed and feeling very defensive, it’s like putting a feral cat in a cage, stick your hand in there to try and tame it and you’re going to loose a finger!

If he’s not been handled before and has joined a new environment and been put indoors you are flooding him with too much to deal with, turn him out with a horse that is well handled and is very social with people, let him soak it all up in his own time, then when he starts to come to come round, then start handling him.
Click to expand...

Spot on. A horse like this needs to be able to put distance between you and he, so that he can feel secure and more confident. By closing him down in a stable, you are creating a situation where flight is not an option and, because he is so fearful, he resorts to aggression. He is in fear for his life and doesn't have any option.
 
Kenzo said:
Keeping him stabled will not be helping the situation, he’s obviously nervous, stressed and feeling very defensive, it’s like putting a feral cat in a cage, stick your hand in there to try and tame it and you’re going to loose a finger!

If he’s not been handled before and has joined a new environment and been put indoors you are flooding him with too much to deal with, turn him out with a horse that is well handled and is very social with people, let him soak it all up in his own time, then when he starts to come to come round, then start handling him.
Click to expand...

Ditto This , Your boy needs his own space to make his mind up about you and come to you under his own will , if you have him outside he'll probably come round quicker than you think especially as he knows you'll bring him food. I wouldn't be too bothered if he's not turned out with another horse as you may be better off letting him know that you're his turnout companion and he needs to look to you for being the herd leader . At the moment , trapped in the stable , he can only use his ' fight ' so if you turn him out and let him use his' flight ' i think you can build a relationship on mutual trust. good luck..
 
My mare was defensive and aggressive whenI bought her as a 9yr old...totally anti-human...would attack and couldn't understand you standing near her. You had to make sure you didnt get caught in a corner of the stable or you would climbing over the wall! whatever had happened had a very traumatic affect on her. i would sya it took 2 years to get her trust and it took patience and just doing everything clearly and precisely. No grey areas. it sometimes could take me 2 hours to get her rugs off, quick brush off and rugs back on..with someone holding her! i think I just wore her down..no matter what I was back the next day...got her in to a routine. Her environment is all important and she reacts to everything.
I have learnt so much from her...and probably most important is to 'listen' to your horse...i know have such a strong bond with her...she is remarkable and I am honoured to be with her.
Give him time, be patient and the littlest break-throughs will keep you going. Mak things as simple as possible...and being precise with what you do...gives him confidence to be with you, which at the end of the day is what you need to achieve.
I wish you all the best...x
 
I don't disagree with anyone that says ideally not stabled. But there is a road between turn out and stable block. Until he leads I'm stuck. He has run if barn with the other 3yo while I'm not there to at least stretch his legs. Today I have been working on just letting him come to me with food. No approach from me at all. I managed to handle left shoulder, neck and jaw with no aggression at all. Hurrah!
 
Hi - Wanted to give an update - and no-one around at home to tell!!! After much heartache i decided to give up. I went to see a dealer (a nice one...) last week and asked if he could take the youngster as too much for me. He regretably said he was full (he regularly takes the difficult ones, and often keeps for months to get them right so not surprising) but he said maybe next month he would come. I havent really tried with my boy since then, focussing on my other 5, and have since backed 2 of them.

I went in his stable today and something about him was different - still afraid but no aggression. So step by step i started from the beginning as if he'd only arrived today. I'm pleased to say that in 60 minutes i got a headcollar on, and hes leading sround the box and backing up, and letting me handle him all over.

Obviously it was a matter of time for this poor boy - he has taught me never to give up. I can now assure him a better future than going from a dealers yard - or the bleak outlook he had before he arrived here. Thank you all for your encouraging words!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top