Help- VERY bouncy canter, will it improve?

[KEK]

Thoughts would be welcome, please:
My rising 4 Connie has been at the breakers for the last 7 weeks, 1 week to go. I rode him today and his trot was good , but his canter was back breakingly BOUNCY and difficult to sit to. Only cantered him for 2 mins and was in marked discomfort all the way home. Obviously he is very young and green. My question is : how much of that is training/experience, and how much just the way the horse goes? He wasn't obviously loosing his balance. (Pic at breakers not me on).

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Only going by my mare, who gets very bouncy and it is like a rising canter, pogo stick and almost 4 time stride you can hear it easily.
I call physio who sorts it, due to her pelvis she comes it goes..

Thing is you prob are unaware of how they trained him, I would do some long and low work, over poles and reins long to stretch his neck, relax his back etc, it is what I have to practice with my mare after chiro

With all due respect he looks very tight in the picture and his face and expression says a lot to me for a 4 years old.

 

[Red-1]

As the horse is barely backed, I would be happy that he is cantering confidently, but I would also make sure that the horse is not wrinkled in front of the withers as that tends to mean they are drawing back rather than confidently seeking forwards, and this can then mean they feel jammed and go up and down as opposed to forward and round in strides.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

As the horse is barely backed, I would be happy that he is cantering confidently, but I would also make sure that the horse is not wrinkled in front of the withers as that tends to mean they are drawing back rather than confidently seeking forwards, and this can then mean they feel jammed and go up and down as opposed to forward and round in strides.

Which i agree with and forget the outline stuff, just get him going forward comfortable on a looseness rein not as red said jammed in.
He is barely yet 4 , there is no rush yet get him balanced himself without being forced into a position which he is not ready for. Get you own trainer to work with you and him. Not all these backing places , take their time , many rush to get results.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I hate people/places that break horses in with flashes or grackles on let alone done up as tight as it is in this pony! It makes for an unhappy, tense pony.

 

[Brownmare]

Whenever I have backed horses I have done the initial canter work on straight lines out hacking and taken a light seat for at least the first few weeks. From the look of this horse I think he would benefit from getting out of the school and doing at least a month of gentle hacking so he can relax and find his balance under a rider and build up strength before even thinking about the quality of his canter in a confined arena.

I would also be asking why he is wearing a grackle. Is it on loosely just to stabilise the bit in the mouth, or is it a shortcut to stop him showing his lack of acceptance and/or understanding of the rein contact? Is he comfortable with the bit he is wearing? Does he have wolf teeth that need attention?

He looks a lovely horse, it is worth taking an extra few months now to establish the basics for a long ridden career. Best of luck with him ?

 

[RHM]

My share horse has a naturally very short and bouncy canter. What helps is to really let them move forwards and push them on. My instructor shouts at me all the time to relax my elbows. I would get yours out hacking on long straight lines and then when they are stronger and more balanced, potentially introduce canter poles to get a more relaxed/consistent stride.

 

[tallyho!]

How have they made him so short in front in just 7 weeks? Good luck undoing all that.

 

[paddi22]

yeah was just thinking that about the head carriage too. the back end is very weak, so that's a dodgy place for it to be holding its front end.
handiest thing with the canter is just to canter on hacks, straight lines, off their back. I'm not a fan of cantering just broken horses in arenas at all until they are strong enough.

 

[SpringArising]

What is it with horse people feeling like they have to add their two bob's worth to everything? No wonder people don't post more photos on this forum - they must know their every which way will be crucified unless they're a perfect rider with a horse perfectly on the bit moving in the most harmonious rhythm.

I'm sure, despite the obvious cruelty and force the horse is clearly being subjected to in these photos taken from a literal snapshot in time, it will be just fine.

To answer your question OP - some horses have a naturally bouncy canter, mine included.

 

[tallyho!]

Compared to Facebook I think you’ll find most people’s two bobs worth comes from a place where plenty of two bobs worth was received themselves.

 

[JFTDWS]

I have one whose baby canter was very bouncy and frankly a bit silly. As he's grown up and got stronger, he's developed a much more pleasant canter to sit - it's still powerful and bouncy but it's more balanced, co-ordinated and softer in his back.

I agree that your pony will probably feel less tense if ridden forward into a longer and more relaxed frame and this may well have significant consequences for his canter.

re the above post - the OP asked a question, the tack and frame of her horse may well be relevant to that question. It would be weirder if people didn't mention it.

 

[paddi22]

They photos show exactly the way that horse has been taught to move and hold itself. You could take another 100 pictures of that horse and it would still be holding tension and hollow in the same places I'd imagine. It's a really typical frame that horses come back in from a lot of breakers. But it's not a particularly good way to develop a horse, and its no harm the owner being made aware of that. They obviously love their horse and its a gorgeous one, but it's no harm to be made aware of how a horses muscles can be best developed?

But I agree with you about the bouncy canter! I have a connie for years and it always kept its bouncy pony canter!

 

[oldie48]

I think your horse is lovely, can't beat a good connie! Rose and my previous horse had canters I couldn't sit to until they were more on the hind leg and using the whole of their body, if that makes sense and they were quite established horses. They needed to soften their backs so an old person like me could sit. Your pony is only at the start of his working life, so I wouldn't worry too much but I think if he is encouraged to use his back more by working in a lower outline, I think you'll soon start to feel he is more comfortable. Enjoy him he is a super looking horse

 

[KEK]

Thanks very much for everyone's replies, I appreciate them!
I was also concerned about the grackle, esp as she said he likes to sit off the leg. She said he just needs a noseband, I have not bought a grackle for him. I bought just an anatomical bridle with flash. The bit is a snaffle with French link, as she recommended, happy to listen to thoughts if others.
I asked about cantering him out of the round yard as I also feel he needs to go forward, she said "When he/you are ready". He has had some bush hacking but just at a walk. Some trotting outside round yard.
Breaker and breeder both say he needs a 3-6m spell now..
Thanks for the hope that the canter will improve, I sent a whole pile of vids to my instructor, who will be helping school him/ride him and she wasn't very hopeful. Vids are on messenger and can't see how to get them onto YouTube. Unfortunately if his canter doesn't improve he's not going to be suitable for me due to really annoying health reasons, and also unsure how to get it there unless have instructor riding him whenever we canter. 2 point seat, maybe? It's my fault- this is the risk you get buying a youngster, I know!
Me on and side pics in case conformation related ?

 

[JFTDWS]

Before I sold the horse, I'd definitely try two point and I'd try a few saddles too, just in case it's not the horse's movement which is the issue (or at least, another saddle might make it more rideable for you).

eta I like your pics of you riding him a lot more than the earlier ones

 

[be positive]

He looks fairly level without tack but the obvious thing that jumps out in all the ridden photos is that he is croup high which will make cantering hard for him at the moment as he is not able to push properly and probably ends up pushing the rider forward which makes matters worse, add into the mix that he is in a round pen so unable to get balanced easily and that the front end has been restricted somewhat and he has no real chance of finding his own balance let alone carrying a rider as well.

I have started a few over the years and some naturally canter in an easy way almost from the start, others are best doing it in straight lines out hacking and some have been best left for a fair time until they are better established in walk and trot, probably popped some small fences before they manage a reasonable canter, in my experience the key to being a good trainer, of horse and rider, is to be prepared to be very flexible, have patience and treat them all as individuals.

A good point has just been made about getting the right saddle, it may fit the horse but if it doesn't suit the rider it makes life difficult.

You seem to be riding in a different saddle to the one used in the first photos, that may have some bearing on how he went as well as on how you felt.

 

[holeymoley]

Only going by my mare, who gets very bouncy and it is like a rising canter, pogo stick and almost 4 time stride you can hear it easily.
I call physio who sorts it, due to her pelvis she comes it goes..

Thing is you prob are unaware of how they trained him, I would do some long and low work, over poles and reins long to stretch his neck, relax his back etc, it is what I have to practice with my mare after chiro

With all due respect he looks very tight in the picture and his face and expression says a lot to me for a 4 years old.

I agree with this. He looks to have been put in a false quick fix frame to look lovely but he won’t have a clue how to work correctly over his back and lengthen everything. He’s bouncy as he’s bunched up.

 

[KEK]

Thanks everyone. Not sure if the saddle was the same, wasn't my saddle anyway. I have an ordinary wintec , am looking at getting something else when can afford, was hoping to use a Stubben with biomex but am concerned it won't fit him. No one here has them, so would have to order one in rather than getting a saddle fitter to come with a bunch of them to try which is my preferred.
I am happy to work him long and low, might just concentrate on walk and trot and my RI can work on canter. Do people agree with 3-6m turn away ? He will be out 24/7, no stables. 1 mare for companion.
I rode his father, he had a reasonable canter. ETA- the croup highness I assume is a growing thing and should change? TIA!

 

[Northern]

I agree with this. He looks to have been put in a false quick fix frame to look lovely but he won’t have a clue how to work correctly over his back and lengthen everything. He’s bouncy as he’s bunched up.

Unfortunately a lot of breakers here do this, the clients want something to take out immediately and look "pretty" in the hack (show) ring (OP not singling you out on that, just my experience!). On the flipside, a friends massive WB mare has just been started by a stockhorse stud and they have done a super job. She has almost exclusively been hacked out along roads and ridden in a huge field and is so balanced and smooth and happy.

I don't think you should give up quickly, the fact he is ridden so short in front will affect his ability to canter out and forward at the moment. When you get him home, I would stay out of the arena and concentrate on hacking him out, as long and low as possible. Some nice long canters up long sloping hills if you have them will do wonders for him. He looks a gorgeous pony, hopefully he'll turn out well for you

 

[ycbm]

Thanks everyone. Not sure if the saddle was the same, wasn't my saddle anyway. I have an ordinary wintec , am looking at getting something else when can afford, was hoping to use a Stubben with biomex but am concerned it won't fit him. No one here has them, so would have to order one in rather than getting a saddle fitter to come with a bunch of them to try which is my preferred.
I am happy to work him long and low, might just concentrate on walk and trot and my RI can work on canter. Do people agree with 3-6m turn away ? He will be out 24/7, no stables. 1 mare for companion.
I rode his father, he had a reasonable canter. ETA- the croup highness I assume is a growing thing and should change? TIA!
View attachment 41635

I never turn away, and nowhere but the UK does on a routine basis. People will tell you that they will grow and mature, but he'll do that anyway, turned away or not.

Turn him away if it suits YOU and for no other reason.

You've got a cracker there!

.

 

[Trouper]

Think I would only turn away if you think he had taken a pounding mentally and needed the break. Otherwise tailor his work for gentle progress and allowing for his still growing. Just before I saw your post I had been reading the latest article on Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) FB page written by Dan Wain with whom he works closely. Interesting the emphasis he places on trust to allow the horse to relax properly and therefore get the full benefit of any work. Your boy did not look relaxed at the breakers.

 

[hobo]

Lovely looking pony and so was his father. My instructor always said they do not need turning away after starting as there will be plenty of times that it happens because of life. She also believes in once they have the basics get out hacking as much as possible. I am sure canter will improve as he matures.

 

[Red-1]

I like to turn away of, for whatever reason, they won't take a low intensity of work and remain level headed. This could be because of inadequate grazing, inadequate area to trail ride, inadequate time for the rider so they can take it slow.

That way they are started and do some growing up so can then be brought back into work and keep level with their fitness, as in increase intensity of work along with fitness so the horse is always worked to 60% of his capabilities (so they don't spill unwanted energy into tomorrow's work schedule).

To me, it is just as good to keep the work as long as the work is low intensity. With good turnout and a level headed horse you can still do something every day without running their legs off.

I would work with your trainer at, as I said in my first post, ensuring that there are no wrinkles in front of the withers. So the neck comes out of the withers and stretches (which will then also translate to the toppling stretching too). That way the horse can indeed start to take weight behind which will effectively shorten the outline, but it will shorten because the horse is strong behind rather than the neck shortening and the horse being cramped behind it.

BTW, for a horse freshly backed, I prefer how he is going for you.

Yes, a saddle will make a difference. Also, I have had a few babies that I always cantered in 2 point initially, as they didn't flex there backs enough to sit. Time will likely change the horse. He will likely level up in front, strengthen, become flexible in his back and feel totally different. I find that working in slower gaits over banks and shallow ditches helpful to help the horse learn to balance and use their bodies.

Lovely horse!

 

[tallyho!]

He BEAUTIFUL! I did the same - buying a youngster. You riding him is def a more pleasing picture. What are your intentions for him? Where are you by the way? He has a little bit of an upright shoulder which may angle out nicely given time as he is a bit bum high when ridden - all the more important to let him stretch out his topline and neck in these formative years. He's still only young after all and with lots of growing to do looking at his sire.

I turned my 4yo out after backing for a winter with a herd. Then gentle hacks the following summer. Turn away again that winter before starting a full year programme after turning 6. Developing proprioception and tension on appropriate tendons and muscles is important I think.

At that age, she had a tendency to hollow/dip down deep into the thoracic sling and shorten the neck up (tell tale wrinkles!) until this now, today really reaches her neck out of the shoulder and learned to lift out of her shoulder sling by around 7/8. My trainer was classically trained and saw how to work with the difficulties I had. Lots of forward, down and out for this type of horse. Canters out in the open are invaluable to develop strength in the quarters.

Sadddle-wise, I changed three in total between 5-7!

 

[SpringArising]

I don't bother turning away. Like YCBM said, they grow and mature whether they're doing something or not. I would rather have a horse fit and trim than standing around getting fat and bored. Unless they're too weak to cope with ridden work at that moment, crack on!

 

[JFTDWS]

Is it a stock saddle you're riding in at the breakers? I find a stock saddle that doesn't fit well (horse / rider / both) can be utter torment. Mind you, I also feel the same way about wintecs.

I don't turn away unless I have a reason to - e.g. weather or rider time. I don't think it's a huge deal - as said upthread, they'll grow regardless.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

In a rising 4 year old I wouldn't be hugely concerned. He seems rather bum high in the riding pics and is probably not very balanced at the canter with a rider onboard. He'll have to develop strength and balance. They also go through funky phases when growing.

A just broke horse has no idea how to carry or use himself.

A good way to get a feel for his paces would be to ride outside of the school (when you and him are comfortable of course) and just let him go into a good forward canter and play around with it a bit. This will build strength and stamina. In time with proper conditioning and training he should learn how to use his hind quarters and lift that front end while properly using his back, and eventually acheive more "sit" in the canter. Riding a hollowed out or on the forehand greenie never feels all that great!

I will say it is easier to begin with a youngster that naturally has a really good canter, as the trot is easier to improve in my opinon. So for a horse that is not as naturally "gifted" in the canter department, things may take a little while longer.

I find that turning away is a personal preference.

 

[Gloi]

I'd take some video of him cantering with you on him and then check from the video he is in a true three time canter.

 

[KEK]

Thank you all, very much, for your lovely comments about him ! It has massively cheered me up Thanks for the advice, too, I will be heeding it for sure.
Originally my plan was for 2 short schooling sessions/week, 1 with me on and my RI teaching, the other with her on, and a hack with my husband on our lovely calm standy. I think that's going to be too much, so I might change it to 2x hacks/week, one round here (roads sadly but quietish ones and hilly), and try and hire the neighbours box so we can go the 10mins to the nice bridle trail where we should be able to do some trotting , and maybe cantering. Focussing on working long and low And no wrinkles! Maybe wait with the schooling until the last quarter of the year ? Will see how we go. Our block is quite sloping , so he will be walking up and down a hill just on turnout. I will buy a new saddle as soon as I can.

I am in Perth, Western Australia. My plans for him are hopefully a nice all around pony, some low grade dressage and jumping. Maybe some ODEs eventually, however I compete a LOT in dog agility so don't have any plans to compete with him. The idea was for my husband and I to have a hobby we can do together, as he doesn't do the dogs.
Also.. He needs a barn name if anyone has any ideas! His full name is Powderbark Malachy but neither of us are super keen on Malachy for home. Any thoughts? His parents are Dundrum and Fiona. TIA!