HELP wanted...bought 2 year old with fragments in fetlocks

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Djcrista

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This 2 year old intended for top level dressage passed its 5 stage vetting. The breeder had already had 38 Xrays done and i was told by breeder and breeders vet that the Xrays were 'good' with no problems. The Xrays were sent to my vet who for one reason and another didn't look at them for 2 weeks. I decided to go on advice from breeders reputable vet and buy the horse. This breeder had also had Xrays checked by another internationally recognised clinic who also said the Xrays were good. On the day the money went through my vet rang me to say that there were fragments in both fetlocks which were bad and could eventually lead to arthritis if not operated on. He recommended that i should not buy the horse. I rang the breeder straight away and explained the findings and asked for money to be returned. This was agreed to by breeder. Anyhow, now the breeder feels that her reputation is on the line as she sold the horse in good faith from the advice of 2 well recognised vets and has asked for a statement of findings from my vet with another statment to say that the horse is not fit for purpose. Thankfully my vet is willing to supply this. Once breeder has received this then there has been a promise of money returned. However, breeder is getting horses fetlocks Xrayed again and I think that this will go on and on with me not seeing any money back at all as both myself and breeder feel we have been ill advised by the vets. This is a horrible situation and i have contacted a solicitor as i am so upset that i have bought this horse with obvious problems that has the future potential to go unsound. ANy advice please?
 
Sounds fair for her to want a statement from your vet, re: reputation and refund. I would wait and see what happens when your vet has passed the statement ona nd go from there
 
I agree with your vet. My horse (age 21) had an old chip fracture in her fetlock. I didn't know about it and it could have happened years ago (she was a broodie before I got her so would have spent a lot of time turned away). She passed a five stage vetting ten years ago for me but no x-rays and has been sound since.
Now arthritis has set into that joint as ever since she chipped it the fragment has been rubbing away at the cartilage. It has been removed surgically and the long term prognosis is excellent even after all this time but personally I would fight for your money back unless you really really want the horse and if so put it in for surgery straight away rather than waiting for the chip to do damage like I did (unintentionally).
 
If she was vetted surely she would have been insured? If so why not have the chip removed like above poster says... I'm sure the breeder would knock your excess off of her price... What do you mean by chip? OCD?
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As the chips are in bothfetlocks it is likely to be OCD. The prognosis is excellent after operating though. Good luck in getting your money back.
 
If I had known about these fragments and was properly advised on the Xrays by her vet i would never have bought the horse. I have already had one youngster go through surgery for OCD of the stifle and i cannot face the thought of having bought another with problems. I know horses are a gamble anyway but I wanted to lessen risk by buying a horse with clean Xrays in the first instance. Surgery is expensive and insurance will not pay out on this considering the circumstances. I have spent all my money on this horse and there is nothing left over for surgery. thanks for your replies
 
I haven't seen the Xrays yet but from all accounts they are not 'chips' as such but multiple fragments ( are these one and the same tho?). My vet did say that they were OCD fragments. I am just wondering if I can take the case up with the vet who advised me and who also did the vetting. I am taking legal advice on this as I really don't know where i stand within the law.
 
Morally the vet did not take all available information in to account, so he has a responsibility, but did you in fact buy the horse without a vetting, that is the question, is it usual to have all these X-rays taken, or does it indicate some sort of investigation. all a bit muddy imho, just shows you how tricky these things are, I quite agree you do not want to have surgery on a horse you bought as free of defects.
Consider taking legal advise (BHS?), to get an objective view, then send a letter asking for refund or replacement, if there was another one you liked. Explain that you bought the animal in good faith, knowing they have an excellent reputation etc, but that you are now have new information about a pre-existing condition and you will now return the horse asap to prevent her costs increasing, ask her to refund via you bank account (a cheque can be stopped even after it is in your account!)
You could provide her with an account of current weekly or daily costs, without vet bills etc, as you currently have a duty of care.
I think you should make sure you do not antagonise the breeder as you are asking her to take back something with a cloud over it and refund money!
As for new X-rays, this is not of interest to you, your own vet (who you are now totally in the hands of) thinks the X-rays showed faults, you do not need to see them as you are presumably not an expert, and any opinion would just cloud the issue further. The evidence of these X-rays is important, not any others. Your vet is not an international expert, apparently, but it is up to him to back his claim, he should have been aware of the problems of a vetting and sale, he is the professional, this is why you pay him. He will be insured for "incompetence" but really you want to get this settled without further trouble.
 
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I totally agree you shouldn't have to put the horse through ops, but if the breeder was to refuse you you're money back it'd hopefully be an option... Like another poster said, was the vetting arranged by you / for you? If so, you have a case that the vet missed something substantial... And why had the breeder x ray before selling anyway ( I'm assuming you didn't book x rays?? ) we breed potentially expensive animals and will never x ray etc unless it is thought that there Is something wrong... Can't understand why, if they believed horse was fine they would X-ray before selling... Hope this gets sorted for you anyway... X
 
I wouldn't buy the youngster either. In fact, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if x-rays were indicating bone fragments.

What a shame your vet didn't look at the x-rays beforehand though, as it's put you in a very, very difficult situation.
 
Also, as you say their reputable vets and another well respected practise have looked and said they're clean, is there any chance atall that your vet could have made a mistake? Maybe looked at the wrong x rays or something? I could understand if their vet said horse was sound and yours said it wasn't as people see differently, but surely an x ray is an x ray... They have an image in front of them, and how can 2 vets say their clean and one see chips? If you really and totally trust your vet then obviously go with what they say, but if there is any doubt that they could be wrong, why not ask for them to be sent to an independent vet? X
 
I agree that your vet could send it to another (world class) vet, just make sure it is not one of those who are already involved. I don't think YOU should pay for any further investigation as you will not get that money back.
I have a feeling that you will now not want this animal, as your view is now different from when you made the decision to buy it, and lets face it, it might go wrong in a year or twenty years, you will always have a worry, and if you come to sell it, look how this will affect the value, if you mention this problem, else you are going to have to say nothing, and this is not a good thing for your reputation as an open and honest vendor.
 
I have gone down the route of the Xrays being the wrong ones but they are indeed correct. My vet practice is well repected in the UK also and my vet had his senior partner look at Xrays and he came to the same conclusion. The Xrays were taken, according to breeder, because she wanted to ensure all was well with horse before putting him on the open market. Breeder will be sending Xrays to another independent vet for another opinion again. This really is a terrible situation as i now have a horse that isn't worth a penny of what i bought him for and i couldnt sell him once broken next year knowing all the problems. I think that Xrays can sometimes be very subjective as a vet on the continent would pass the Xrays as a grade 2 but an English vet would fail them. I think both vets would conclude that there are definate fragments, yet each would differ in their opinion on how this may affect a horses future prospects?? I would really like to see the Xrays as i have experience in reading Xrays (of the hand anyhow) and would like just to see them with my own eyes
 
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So have you bought the horse from abroad? Didn't realise that, but anyhow... You said that their vets said x rays were good with no problems, now that they both agree there are chips... Don't really understand anymore :D hope it gets sorted for you anyway x
 
No i bought from UK. Breeder vet was UK and she also sent Xrays to another vet who is based in uk but is Dutch. Yes i was told that the Xrays were good by breeders english vet. No mention of Fragments. He has not confirmed to date the exisitence of non existence of the fragments. THe Xrays weren't graded either.. I jsut used that as an example of the difference between English vets and non english vets. I was just told that the Xrays were good and that there were no problems. I think that the Breeders vet should state the findings of xrays and his opinion of the horses future prospects for top dressage based on these findings. My vet reports that it would be laughable for anyone to suggest there weren't fragments as they can plainly be seen
 
Another fine horsey mess i find myself in. When will i ever learn about horses....I should have given up years ago yet i battle on in the vain hope that one day i might find my superstar that stays sound beyond the age of 6
 
Djcrista said:
Another fine horsey mess i find myself in. When will i ever learn about horses....I should have given up years ago yet i battle on in the vain hope that one day i might find my superstar that stays sound beyond the age of 6
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Then perhaps you should look at the type of horse you are buying? FWIW I know of several members on here that breed good solid sound horses that provide endless fun for those of us without ideas above our capability. Henryhorn is the one that springs to mind.
 
I have to agree with BBs. I have known so many warmbloods costing in excess of £10 k having OCD and worse! A friend bought a beautiful 4 year old black warmblood for £15k. He had clean xrays. She had him 6 months and he went lame. He was diagnosed with a horrible condition where his bones in his fetlocks were fusing together and he was in severe pain and had to be PTS. I do wonder if these finely bred animals have a higher proportion of congenital disorders. It's the same with dogs.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Then perhaps you should look at the type of horse you are buying? FWIW I know of several members on here that breed good solid sound horses that provide endless fun for those of us without ideas above our capability. Henryhorn is the one that springs to mind.
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Yup, exactly that. I have always bought from abroad before hence why i went looking in the Uk for State premium mare lines and breeders who have had many many years of breeding these horses. I was trying to be soo careful with my next purchase to try to get it as 'right' as I possibly could. All i wanted was a young horse with talent enough so i could produce through levels ( I compete advanced dressage). I wasn't looking for Incredible movement, just temperament, and with the right breeding and potential to remain sound in mind and body.
 
I had X rays done and they were ok'd by my vet who took them, i passed them on to equine vet for second opinion, he said they were unmistakeable (bone chips in both hocks).

It can happen that a vet misreads an x ray.

I cannot see how the vendor can not refund you the money. If they had not bothered getting x rays, it might be different, but to get them and you to buy the horse on the basis that all was well with them, and then find that is not the case.
 
Djcrista said:
I have gone down the route of the Xrays being the wrong ones but they are indeed correct. My vet practice is well repected in the UK also and my vet had his senior partner look at Xrays and he came to the same conclusion. The Xrays were taken, according to breeder, because she wanted to ensure all was well with horse before putting him on the open market. Breeder will be sending Xrays to another independent vet for another opinion again. This really is a terrible situation as i now have a horse that isn't worth a penny of what i bought him for and i couldnt sell him once broken next year knowing all the problems. I think that Xrays can sometimes be very subjective as a vet on the continent would pass the Xrays as a grade 2 but an English vet would fail them. I think both vets would conclude that there are definate fragments, yet each would differ in their opinion on how this may affect a horses future prospects?? I would really like to see the Xrays as i have experience in reading Xrays (of the hand anyhow) and would like just to see them with my own eyes
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I hope you have copies?
 
Well at the moment, I would just take a deep breath and hold fire. The breeder actually seems to be acting in good faith atm. From her perspective, if she had x rayed and her vet said all was OK, then of course she would look for another opinion as the 2 vets differ so greatly. I would just double check how she has found the 3rd independant vet? Have there been 2 sets of xrays or one? and if there were 2 were they different machines? my vet has a portable for quickness but will always revert to a fixed one if he needs deeper/clearer pictures.

As for the other poster suggesting you could sort the horse on your insurnance - you couldn't. Insurance will not cover you for pre-existing conditions (which you have to declare at the time of insuring or you will void it anyway).

I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion with the breeder. Have you agreed a time frame for her to reach a decision? or does she have something similiar you could swap your 2 year old with? just a thought..
 
I'm trying really hard not to stress over it but had to go off work last week with stress and in tears because of the situation. The original Xrays done were said to be excellent quality by my vet so no issue with good visibility of Xrays. Breeder has offered me the pick of foals just born ( I was also after a foal as well) but they are all fillies at the moment and I want a colt and also freedom of choice. Her foals may not be what i am looking for to buy and there is no equivalent 2 year old to exchange with :(
 
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