Help! What to do with my horse?! Behaviour or neurological???

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Chickendreams

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Hi, so this is a long and confusing one but I am in desperate need of advice. I have spoken to all the professionals and still am none the wiser as what to do with my retired pony. He’s not an old pony he’s actually only 11 but he’s been retired for the last year as he was a happy hacker who was broken in at 5 years old and after many investigations and no clear diagnosis was eventually retired as he is sound in field and not ridden and has been generally a happy chap just being a field ornament, being walked out and fussed. HOWEVER the last 6 months he has taken a turn, in his behaviour mostly. He has become so stressed about being away from his field mate that he has become quite dangerous, if his friend is ridden he has to come in with them and he has to be stabled (initially we couldn’t stable him at all and had to just walk him around on a lead rope as he couldn’t stand in the stable) now he can be stabled but supervised the entire time as he spins, pushes at the door (luckily he knows nothing about jumping) he whinnies and shouts the entire time and gets very upset, this is the same if it’s 2 minutes or longer and it is for the entire time. Other horses and ponies are no consolation to him, his other field mate is stabled in an adjoining box at these times and he takes no comfort from this. I have tried all the obvious tricks to try and get him used to his friend sometimes leaving and nothing helps, I’ve tried starting off small and building up but the reactions are the same regardless, we have even just tried his friend being in the yard in front of him while he’s in his box so merely a few metres away being ridden and it does nothing to help the reaction.

If this was the only problem I wouldn’t be so concerned. However he has also become very difficult for the farrier (despite always being good before). He is now very difficult to manage if he comes out of the field for anything and same applies if his friend comes out for anything, he reacts in sheer panic and distress as soon as they are brought in.

I have spoken to vets and we have done pain trials, with no difference, we have treated for ulcers despite him having a clean scope with no difference, we have changed his feed to a fibre only pellet and no sugars (he was very low sugars anyway) he is on a calmer which doesn’t seem to help. He has had physio with nothing being found, he shows no pain reactions to anything that anyone can see so it really does feel like that’s not it.

I am so sure he has something neurological as he is very clumsy and almost no aware of where his body is, he often chucks his head about and hits his own face on things and people!

He’s actually a very sweet pony which is what makes this all sooo hard and confusing as it’s so out of character for him but it is just getting worse not better.

The most insane part is he actually got very aggressive recently with his field mate (who he is obsessed with and normally follows round) because they were wearing a fly mask which they don’t normally wear, as soon as he saw them with it on it was as if he didn’t recognise the horse and started chasing, biting, running them into the fence and cornering to bite. It was only 5/10 minutes before I managed to find the right moment to get in the field and rip the mask off the other horse without getting injured because he wouldn’t let up. As soon as it was off he calmed right down and rolled and went back to normal, it was truly bizarre to see and what’s more is since then I have tried to introduce the fly mask on the other horse slowly to try and desensitise and there is no lessen in reaction it’s the exact same each time and so not fair on the other horse so they are just having to go out without one. (Might be worth mentioning that he actually wears a fly mask himself and is fine and has seen many horses with fly masks and has never reacted like this before).

So what I am asking with all this is, what would people do? I am happy to rehome him but he is a difficult pony to manage now and also retired so nobody wants a unridden pony especially with this many ‘vices’ I have considered retirement livery somewhere else but I do think these problems are not the environment so can’t see how moving him would help, vets have nowhere else to go with it and have suggested another behaviourist (I have spoken to a couple now with no real answers) my instructor and I spoke about behavioural euthanasia because I have real concerns that he would be passed from pillar to post and likely abused or cause himself an injury and have to be pts anyway somewhere else (he runs into fences when he is stressed and has no self preservation).

I morally don’t know what to do, I am at a loss as to what is causing his behaviour if it’s not neurological, he has quite a few neurological signs that I can see but vets don’t really seem receptive when I have mentioned it they go to the behaviour route over and over. I can’t continue to manage him as he is as it’s actually becoming dangerous. What’s so bizarre is if he’s left in the field and no fly mask on his friend and no horses are moved in or out he’s dopey and relaxed and happy, as soon as you do anything to change anything around him (bring a horse in etc) he goes straight to stressed and aggressive.

Any advice welcome, sorry for the long ramble post. Please don’t be horrible and judgmental but I am happy to hear what people think and honestly what you would do in the same situation as I truly love this pony and just want to do the right thing but I can’t keep risking myself everyday as I am at the moment.
 
U.N.Owen said:
You say retired young but why was he retired? What was his ridden symptoms?
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He would show discomfort with a rider, it was always pain signal along his back, he had x rays and scopes his entire spine was x rayed and sent to a specialist with nothing found, they couldn’t find ks or arthritis and we treated with injections as a precaution as he was undiagnosed with no improvement. He never went lame he was just unhappy ridden and showing pain signals with weight on his back. He also had pssm1 and 2 tests negative. He was happy and pain free unridden so that’s why he was retired on advice from the vets.
 
Chickendreams said:
He would show discomfort with a rider, it was always pain signal along his back, he had x rays and scopes his entire spine was x rayed and sent to a specialist with nothing found, they couldn’t find ks or arthritis and we treated with injections as a precaution as he was undiagnosed with no improvement. He never went lame he was just unhappy ridden and showing pain signals with weight on his back. He also had pssm1 and 2 tests negative. He was happy and pain free unridden so that’s why he was retired on advice from the vets.
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Also to note when he was ridden he was on the buckle plod along hacker, never in a rush and was extremely polite when he did get uncomfortable under saddle
 
Have his eyes been checked for cataracts?

If you suspect a neurological issue, there are some neurological tests you can do yourself, I use this video as I have a wobbler. Mine toe drags is difficult with his feet and fails badly on the hoof placement test.
 
nutjob said:
Have his eyes been checked for cataracts?

If you suspect a neurological issue, there are some neurological tests you can do yourself, I use this video as I have a wobbler. Mine toe drags is difficult with his feet and fails badly on the hoof placement test.
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His eyes have been checked in the past but not in regards to this behaviour, he ran into a gate a few years ago that normally was open and on this occasion had been shut, he had plenty of time as he approached it to see it but seemed to not. Both checks he had showed no problems but even then a vet had mentioned it was bizarre how he ran into it. (People actually saw it happen) but he was in work and showed no other signs at this point of anything. I will definitely try the checks myself thank you 🙏
 
You say pssm 1 and 2 negative was he ever muscle biopsied? Could still be a muscle issue.

I assume tested for wobblers? I would also think slightly out of the box and possibly cushings caused by pituitary tumour
 
U.N.Owen said:
You say pssm 1 and 2 negative was he ever muscle biopsied? Could still be a muscle issue.

I assume tested for wobblers? I would also think slightly out of the box and possibly cushings caused by pituitary tumour
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Yes he had the muscle biopsy for the pssm 2 test.

hasn’t been tested for wobblers or cushings
 
have you considered a behaviourist to establish that it's not extreme separation anxiety as it can happen where the horses get so worked up and panicked they become demented and lose self preservation. It is worrying that he has started to attack and does actually sound possibly neurological and the only way to be sure of something like a brain tumour is post mortem. I honestly think if you've tried the behaviourist and ruled out pain then you have little option when it comes to safety of people and other horses here.
 
IrishMilo said:
He sounds very similar to my old Connie. I retired him at 6 because he was always explosive under saddle and then he got progressively more strange on the floor. Would never settle, jumped out of arenas etc. and ran through field fencing. I put him to sleep.
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Oh that’s very like him, that’s so sad I’m sorry to hear that. I am slowly realising it might be the best thing I can do for him.
 
spike123 said:
have you considered a behaviourist to establish that it's not extreme separation anxiety as it can happen where the horses get so worked up and panicked they become demented and lose self preservation. It is worrying that he has started to attack and does actually sound possibly neurological and the only way to be sure of something like a brain tumour is post mortem. I honestly think if you've tried the behaviourist and ruled out pain then you have little option when it comes to safety of people and other horses here.
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I have spoken to 2 behaviourists about him and first suggested separation anxiety to which we did lots of little things to try and help him be away from his friend with nothing helping or changing anything. Second didn’t have any clear answers and was actually as confused as me as sometimes he seems so sane and then has these bizarre moments, the attacking has been very recent so havnt actually managed to see another behaviourist about it yet but have spoken to my vet and also my instructor who are equally baffled, I have been given another referral to a new behaviourist who works remotely too.
 
rextherobber said:
Could it be ECVM / pressure on the spinal cord from neck issue? I believe that can give neurological symptoms. Could he have had a fall in the field and hurt his neck?
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He has fallen several times since I have had him, he’s always been extremely clumsy but he’s not had an obvious fall which has then been followed by these changes? What would I need to get checked to know?
 
I can’t comment on the clumsiness, but my horse had severe separation anxiety at his old yard. He had been there a year or so when he suddenly became fixated on the horse in the stable next to him. They also shared a field. If my horse was out and his friend wasn’t, he’d have a melt down. Pacing, calling etc. He’d get worked up in a sweat and eventually I couldn’t risk turning him out without the other horse there. Equally if mine was in the stable and the other wasn’t, he’d lose the plot. Calling, spinning, pretty much trying to throw himself out of the stable.

Weirdly he was okay if I took him off got a ride, or if I tied him on the yard. But if his friend was tied on the yard - even if my horse could see him! - he’d get worked up.

The escalating behaviour ended when I moved yards. I didn’t move for that reason, but I did hope it might snap him out of it. He instantly became quiet and reserved, but that is his coping mechanism in a new place. But months later he’s happy, calm being in, calm being out, and absolutely no sign of the buddy sour behaviour. I will say that, in hindsight, the old yard probably wasn’t the best place for him for various reasons. But he loves where he is now and I’m so relieved by the behaviour change.

I don’t know if that helps at all, but wanted to share my experience, and to commiserate, because it’s horrible when they get so worked up and upset.
 
I can recognise a lot of those symptoms as a horse becoming more blind as time goes on. Try studying him with that suggestion in mind and see if it makes any sense. When you lead him talk to him, take care with his head, keep him out of trouble and try to see if it makes a difference.. Talk to him all the time so he knows where you are and "walk" your hands around him as you move around.


It is not easy to diagnose. I had 3 vets tell me my horse could see, the horse told me a different story. You could try an equine opthalmologist.

If that is the problem then some horses cope with being blind and can adapt and adjust and some can't.
Equine recurrent uveitis is painful. That could account for the aggression.

You could try putting tape over one eye on the outside of the fly mask and see if it makes any difference on the basis of what he can't see he won't panic at.

What you describe could be any number of things however if it did turn out to be his eyes then if he cannot cope it may be kinder to consider PTS to put him out of his panic and stress.
 
I would second checking his sight. My pony has uveitis and the vet tells me he can see almost 99% from the affected eye, but I can tell that this is not true. I don't think that they can really tell from a routine check. My pony is also super clumsy, walks into things, smacks his head on his things, walks on people etc.

There is a blind mare on my yard who relies on another mare for her sight and does exactly the same as your pony if they are separated. Obviously she can't see at all, but any loss of sight is destabilising for them.

My pony would not cope with losing his sight, and I would probably have to have him pts if this happens.

I hope that you find a solution.
 
Whilst I think Paddy555 is most likely correct, I has a mare with 'behaviour problems' and a cough. She had seen the vet many times before we found the root of her problems, by chance (nothing to do with the vet). The answer was to change her feed.
I would cut your horse's feed back to nothing but hay and grass for a month, keeping a daily diary and monitor his behaviour. If the behaviour starts to get worse, persevere, then it is likely to improve.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Whilst I think Paddy555 is most likely correct, I has a mare with 'behaviour problems' and a cough. She had seen the vet many times before we found the root of her problems, by chance (nothing to do with the vet). The answer was to change her feed.
I would cut your horse's feed back to nothing but hay and grass for a month, keeping a daily diary and monitor his behaviour. If the behaviour starts to get worse, persevere, then it is likely to improve.
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I have tried him on nothing but hay and grass and sadly he just drops condition so quickly, he’s a lusitano and he has always been a terrible doer. He’s only having fast fibre and soaked hay pellets on top of grass and hay just to keep the weight on him.
 
paddy555 said:
I can recognise a lot of those symptoms as a horse becoming more blind as time goes on. Try studying him with that suggestion in mind and see if it makes any sense. When you lead him talk to him, take care with his head, keep him out of trouble and try to see if it makes a difference.. Talk to him all the time so he knows where you are and "walk" your hands around him as you move around.


It is not easy to diagnose. I had 3 vets tell me my horse could see, the horse told me a different story. You could try an equine opthalmologist.

If that is the problem then some horses cope with being blind and can adapt and adjust and some can't.
Equine recurrent uveitis is painful. That could account for the aggression.

You could try putting tape over one eye on the outside of the fly mask and see if it makes any difference on the basis of what he can't see he won't panic at.

What you describe could be any number of things however if it did turn out to be his eyes then if he cannot cope it may be kinder to consider PTS to put him out of his panic and stress.
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This is very helpful thank you
 
Pearlsasinger said:
What does fast fibre contain?
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Ingredients listed are. Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Molasses-Free Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (6.1%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Fenugreek, Organic Soya Oil, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides


I switched him onto this when he retired as he wasn’t working anymore but time wise it seems to have no correlation to when these problems started so who knows
 
Chickendreams said:
Ingredients listed are. Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Molasses-Free Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (6.1%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Fenugreek, Organic Soya Oil, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides


I switched him onto this when he retired as he wasn’t working anymore but time wise it seems to have no correlation to when these problems started so who knows
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How long has he been on fast fibre?

Fenugreek has endocrine effects - testosterone boosting and lactation boost. Although it has beneficial herbal properties too, the endocrine effects for an animal could cause behavioural change.

I’ve seen fenugreek in a lot of female supplements for estrogenic effects mostly - he may well be clingy if estrogen is enhanced. If testosterone is also enhanced the anguish lashing-out behaviour is understandable.


The effects of feeding a herbal endocrine supplement won’t be seen immediately, unlike taking actual hormone injections - herbs takes weeks to build-up in the system - and this effect of endocrine ‘enhancement’ by herbs can then cause the hypothalamus and pituitary to then alter their signalling in relation to the supplement, either by increasing or decreasing the hormones made within the body. These aspects of endocrine function are master glands in the brain, and it therefore has potential to alter behaviour.
Hormones, are part of the baseline signalling ‘commands’ that tell all other body systems how to regulate their function. It’s wise to be cautious with some herbs/supplements as they can be endocrine-affecting.
It’s difficult enough balancing hormone supplements for humans, and getting it *just right* so we feel balanced, because the hormone system is such a delicate, finely-tuned system - so it’s a bit of a gamble supplementing with hormones of animals as they can’t talk to tell us how they’re feeling.

It’s likely a small dose in the feed you’re giving, guessing by the ingredients list as they rarely ever say how much per dose fed, but still these small doses can be accumulative - it’s the one ingredient that makes me question behavioural change potentially due to endocrine alteration by the herb.
That and the soya oil - which is also estrogenic.

As he needs a weight boost aside from grass and hay, have you tried speedibeet? It’s high fibre so good for the gut, but it’s got nutrition to help weight maintenance.
It’s already a bulky ingredient in Fast Fibre, without the added anomalous ingredients, so his gut will be used to beet already so the shift in feed won’t be so dramatic for his gut biome.
Give 2 weeks off the Fast Fibre to flush from his system before you’re likely to see improvements off fenugreek and soya oil - IF that is causing the disturbance.
It’s worth a 2 week trial if he’s able to be safely managed for such a trial.

As Paddy suggested, eye health and inability to see clearly also seems like a possible cause for clinginess of other horse and clumsiness. A specialist eye vet sounds needed if regular vets do basic tests, that may be inaccurate, as per other posts.

My only other suggestion, not really a solution but a halfway solve - as he’s happy in the field with no change, are you able to get him a little companion he likes so the other horse he is currently clinging to can be ridden by its owner? Obviously I dont know the ins and outs of the situation, your finances etc, so likely a useless option but it all depends on your perspective of keeping him, resources and preferences.

I’d change the feed though asap - herbs have crept into many bagged horse feeds and some are relatively harmless, but with some I really do question why on earth they’ve added them. It’s like a fad these feed companies are going through…it really is irresponsible.
Many modern medicines are based off of constituents of compounds in the natural plant world. Plant-based does not equal safe/good all the time.
Plants/herbs were once taken seriously as medicines and used as such.
Nowadays the general consensus mainly from the natural health marketing industries is ‘all herbs are good all the time for all!’
Herbal remedies can be fabulous, but dose and symptoms need to be carefully matched and individually treated, rather than adhoc thrown in as ‘garnish’ into feed bags.
Rant over!
It’s worth a go at stopping the hormonal additives to see if his behaviour relaxes, but only if he and everyone is safe enough to enable a feed trial.

You sound like you’ve tried many avenues to investigate the issue…he’s a lucky boy that you’re willing to try so hard. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and hope all the suggestions on the thread help, even if you face the hardest decision with him, you know you’ve tried your best to solve it x
 
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