Help! What to do with my horse?! Behaviour or neurological???

PurBee said:
How long has he been on fast fibre?

Fenugreek has endocrine effects - testosterone boosting and lactation boost. Although it has beneficial herbal properties too, the endocrine effects for an animal could cause behavioural change.

I’ve seen fenugreek in a lot of female supplements for estrogenic effects mostly - he may well be clingy if estrogen is enhanced. If testosterone is also enhanced the anguish lashing-out behaviour is understandable.


The effects of feeding a herbal endocrine supplement won’t be seen immediately, unlike taking actual hormone injections - herbs takes weeks to build-up in the system - and this effect of endocrine ‘enhancement’ by herbs can then cause the hypothalamus and pituitary to then alter their signalling in relation to the supplement, either by increasing or decreasing the hormones made within the body. These aspects of endocrine function are master glands in the brain, and it therefore has potential to alter behaviour.
Hormones, are part of the baseline signalling ‘commands’ that tell all other body systems how to regulate their function. It’s wise to be cautious with some herbs/supplements as they can be endocrine-affecting.
It’s difficult enough balancing hormone supplements for humans, and getting it *just right* so we feel balanced, because the hormone system is such a delicate, finely-tuned system - so it’s a bit of a gamble supplementing with hormones of animals as they can’t talk to tell us how they’re feeling.

It’s likely a small dose in the feed you’re giving, guessing by the ingredients list as they rarely ever say how much per dose fed, but still these small doses can be accumulative - it’s the one ingredient that makes me question behavioural change potentially due to endocrine alteration by the herb.
That and the soya oil - which is also estrogenic.

As he needs a weight boost aside from grass and hay, have you tried speedibeet? It’s high fibre so good for the gut, but it’s got nutrition to help weight maintenance.
It’s already a bulky ingredient in Fast Fibre, without the added anomalous ingredients, so his gut will be used to beet already so the shift in feed won’t be so dramatic for his gut biome.
Give 2 weeks off the Fast Fibre to flush from his system before you’re likely to see improvements off fenugreek and soya oil - IF that is causing the disturbance.
It’s worth a 2 week trial if he’s able to be safely managed for such a trial.

As Paddy suggested, eye health and inability to see clearly also seems like a possible cause for clinginess of other horse and clumsiness. A specialist eye vet sounds needed if regular vets do basic tests, that may be inaccurate, as per other posts.

My only other suggestion, not really a solution but a halfway solve - as he’s happy in the field with no change, are you able to get him a little companion he likes so the other horse he is currently clinging to can be ridden by its owner? Obviously I dont know the ins and outs of the situation, your finances etc, so likely a useless option but it all depends on your perspective of keeping him, resources and preferences.

I’d change the feed though asap - herbs have crept into many bagged horse feeds and some are relatively harmless, but with some I really do question why on earth they’ve added them. It’s like a fad these feed companies are going through…it really is irresponsible.
Many modern medicines are based off of constituents of compounds in the natural plant world. Plant-based does not equal safe/good all the time.
Plants/herbs were once taken seriously as medicines and used as such.
Nowadays the general consensus mainly from the natural health marketing industries is ‘all herbs are good all the time for all!’
Herbal remedies can be fabulous, but dose and symptoms need to be carefully matched and individually treated, rather than adhoc thrown in as ‘garnish’ into feed bags.
Rant over!
It’s worth a go at stopping the hormonal additives to see if his behaviour relaxes, but only if he and everyone is safe enough to enable a feed trial.

You sound like you’ve tried many avenues to investigate the issue…he’s a lucky boy that you’re willing to try so hard. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and hope all the suggestions on the thread help, even if you face the hardest decision with him, you know you’ve tried your best to solve it x
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Thank you that’s very interesting, he hasn’t been on the fast fibre long but the behaviour had started before I changed his food, I have tried Speedi beet before so will try again like you said.

Sadly he has other friends for the field and just isn’t affected by them, he has no interest in anyone else and if any new horse is now introduced at this point he attacks very viciously so I wouldn’t want to try and introduce any new ponies at this point. I would happily keep him in the field with a friend as honestly that is the goal, but now if anyone is wearing a fly mask or rug he attacks so I worry about winter and how I would cope when they have to wear rugs.

The problem being his eyes is so interesting as a thought so I’m going to bare that in mind and see if I notice anything new etc

I’m also going to do the neurological tests in that video and see how he scores (I am already pretty shore fails most of them)

I will report it all back to my vets and see what they say, thank you to everyone who’s taken time to suggest things it has been really helpful and given me new things to consider so it really is appreciated.
 
This is one miserable horse who is dangerous to himself and to others. He’s had multiple investigations.

The kindest thing would be to put him down.

It could be neuro issues. I had to have my homebred PTS last year after she had a few not fully observed episodes, including running blind through a fence, that had the vets scratching their heads. Then she had a full seizure in front of me and was PTS lated the same day. The vet suspected a frontal lobe tumour.
 
There is an easy way to test eye sight. We do it with cotton wool. Needs to be in a stable ideally as it's about response. You take a small bit of cotton wool (about the amount of a finger nail then) and stand in different positions and throw it into their eyeline and look for an ear flick. So positions would be from behind on left, to side and in front. If the ear flicks they have seen it. You do both eyes separately. It's pretty basic but having spent a huge amount of time with an equestrian ophthalmologist it's the first test they do as gives a lot of information.
 
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Thanks for that LEC. My horse is blind in one eye (cataract) but I don't think completely blind as he blinks if I move fingers near the eye. I will try this cotton wool test.
 
Chickendreams said:
Just to update I have done the tests in the video on him this morning and he scores very high for neurological issues. Will do them again another day and record too to see if any difference also still to do the eye test but will
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I was going to say both soya and linseed can adversely affect horses quite commonly but it seems that you have probably found the cause of your horse's problems. At least now you have something to talk to your vet about.
 
Chickendreams said:
Just to update I have done the tests in the video on him this morning and he scores very high for neurological issues. Will do them again another day and record too to see if any difference also still to do the eye test but will
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I'm so sorry to hear that but he is very fortunate to have someone who is actually listening to what he's "saying". Vets are great but they don't get to see a horse every day in all possible situations, and there's a limit to what regular investigations can tell you. It sounds like your initial instinct that something is badly wrong is correct, and that the available evidence supports letting him go quietly. Whatever you decide you've done well to be so persistent.

The other thing is, you may never get a definitive diagnosis, so choosing to PTS on the balance of probabilities would not be wrong. And you don't need a vet's recommendation either - if you tell them that's your decision they should be supportive. I'm really sorry, what a horrible situation to be in with a pony who you know to be sweet.
 
This is a very unhappy horse with physical problems that are probaby at the root of it. But nothing you find is going to wave a magic wand and fix this. It could be x or y or z. If knowing would help you then chase a diagnosis, but dont do it thinking that hes fixable. I would have him PTS no doubt feeling absolutely awful about it, but knowing I was stopping all of this for him.
 
ihatework said:
You sound like you have done everything right by this pony so please take some pride and comfort from that. Unfortunately we can’t fix them all and I’m in the camp that if they are unhappy souls in retirement then pts is the right way forwards
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Widgeon said:
I'm so sorry to hear that but he is very fortunate to have someone who is actually listening to what he's "saying". Vets are great but they don't get to see a horse every day in all possible situations, and there's a limit to what regular investigations can tell you. It sounds like your initial instinct that something is badly wrong is correct, and that the available evidence supports letting him go quietly. Whatever you decide you've done well to be so persistent.

The other thing is, you may never get a definitive diagnosis, so choosing to PTS on the balance of probabilities would not be wrong. And you don't need a vet's recommendation either - if you tell them that's your decision they should be supportive. I'm really sorry, what a horrible situation to be in with a pony who you know to be sweet.
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Thank you for your kind words, it’s such a horrible situation to be in.
 
out of interest is the horse he likes a mare? just wonder as you say he's a lusitano and just wonder if he's ever been bred from/covered a mare? A good friend of mine has a spanish andalusian who behaves as you describe when around other horses and his favourite mare. We think he was used as a stallion in his past especially as he's buckskin. He's better on rigcalm but best kept separated from mares although he now has a pony companion mare who he is fine with. He was attacking her before when he could get at other mares.
 
spike123 said:
out of interest is the horse he likes a mare? just wonder as you say he's a lusitano and just wonder if he's ever been bred from/covered a mare? A good friend of mine has a spanish andalusian who behaves as you describe when around other horses and his favourite mare. We think he was used as a stallion in his past especially as he's buckskin. He's better on rigcalm but best kept separated from mares although he now has a pony companion mare who he is fine with. He was attacking her before when he could get at other mares.
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Currently yes his friend is a mare, however he has been with a mixed herd before without this behaviour. He has also another mare in the field with him and doesn’t care about her. It’s strange because if it was just the stressy behaviour in regards to coming in and out the field I would be so convinced of separation anxiety but with all the other things and the way he responds to the neurological tests I just can’t see it being fixed by moving fields/yards/turnoutbuddys. The aggression also is so out of character for him, he’s always wanted to be everyone’s friend, the way he switches and attacks now is not like anything he’s done before.

He’s always sat lower end of the herd hierarchy wise, just below middle I would say, got on with mares, geldings, big and small horses, he even was in a riding school yard for a years where horses would come and go from the herd and he would barely notice.
 
Chickendreams said:
Currently yes his friend is a mare, however he has been with a mixed herd before without this behaviour. He has also another mare in the field with him and doesn’t care about her. It’s strange because if it was just the stressy behaviour in regards to coming in and out the field I would be so convinced of separation anxiety but with all the other things and the way he responds to the neurological tests I just can’t see it being fixed by moving fields/yards/turnoutbuddys. The aggression also is so out of character for him, he’s always wanted to be everyone’s friend, the way he switches and attacks now is not like anything he’s done before.

He’s always sat lower end of the herd hierarchy wise, just below middle I would say, got on with mares, geldings, big and small horses, he even was in a riding school yard for a years where horses would come and go from the herd and he would barely notice.
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I'm sorry but I agree you've tried your best and it really does sound like it would be the best decision for him . My friends gelding has also been in a mixed herd but he still acted a little riggy particularly around one mare. The way you say his behaviour changes is definitely more worrysome. I have known of 2 horses with a brain tumour. One was a sweet 3 year old who would suddenly without reason pin you against a wall with her teeth. Her behaviour worsened. On post mortem she had a confirmed tumour. The other horse we always suspected but no post mortem was done. She could go from being asleep dozing chilled out to biting to maim with no warnings. After savaging an older lady on the yard they had her pts.
 
If he were mine, and I had the money and heart to investigate then I would go for having a good specialist look at eyes/ sinuses and teeth,
just based off the symptoms you have described.
I would probably not turn out with the beloved field mate if I could safely avoid it.
I would also try cutting out hard feed and stabling with ad lib good quality forage for a period each day.
If nothing was found in his eyes,teeth or sinuses then I would put to sleep.
Might be worth setting a time limit on how long you are prepared to investigate for.
 
I will add my voice to the others - the pony is unhappy and insecure in his environment, showing pain in daily life where before it was ridden only. I would pts via hunt or similar - at this point it is in the pony’s best interests. Sadly sometimes we cannot save them, we can only end their suffering.

He was lucky to find you - you’ve done absolutely everything you could.
 
nutjob said:
Have his eyes been checked for cataracts?

If you suspect a neurological issue, there are some neurological tests you can do yourself, I use this video as I have a wobbler. Mine toe drags is difficult with his feet and fails badly on the hoof placement test.
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Mine is EPM and we suspect has long lasting effects from an attack. He also has hock arthritis which doesn't help. There are days when he fails many of these tests and days when he is more astute and doesn't even come close to failing.

OP, I think I read some posts on here quite some time ago from people whose horses have gone down a similar route with a brain tumour as the cause. Given the dangerous behaviour, I am afraid I would be considering PTS. It doesn't sound like you have a happy horse and passing him onto someone else seems like an awful idea. There are far worse things than PTS.
 
I would remove the field mate completely. Out of sight and hearing. Think of it as a weaning. Minimum of three months. Break the bond. If you cannot do this then remove your horse to another yard at least temporarily. You may have to pay two lots of livery fees to keep your place at the present yard.
 
Chickendreams said:
Just to update I have done the tests in the video on him this morning and he scores very high for neurological issues. Will do them again another day and record too to see if any difference also still to do the eye test but will
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Yes it's a good video, I've posted it a lot on here as I was in this situation with a CVM/Wobblers horse and it helped me.
 
Chickendreams said:
Just to update I have done the tests in the video on him this morning and he scores very high for neurological issues. Will do them again another day and record too to see if any difference also still to do the eye test but will
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I think you've done a lot for him - much more than I think a lot of people might have. Horses are heartbreakers and sometimes we just can't help them.

Hugs to you.
 
Gropony said:
I would second checking his sight. My pony has uveitis and the vet tells me he can see almost 99% from the affected eye, but I can tell that this is not true. I don't think that they can really tell from a routine check. My pony is also super clumsy, walks into things, smacks his head on his things, walks on people etc.

There is a blind mare on my yard who relies on another mare for her sight and does exactly the same as your pony if they are separated. Obviously she can't see at all, but any loss of sight is destabilising for them.

My pony would not cope with losing his sight, and I would probably have to have him pts if this happens.

I hope that you find a solution.
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I'm sure you are right about vets checking and getting an accurate answer. I have had experience of this with 2 different horses. The other problem is that the horse might not be "blind" in that he can see however with one of mine he could see but it was what he could see. He didn't see something in the way a normal horse did and the signals sent to his brain were not those a normal horse would. If something moved he didn't appear to be able to focus on it's movement so that sent panic signals. This doesn't happen all the time, you may appear to have a perfectly normal horse one day and then the next you are back to square one. The vision is distorted.
The only suggestion I have if you can identify an eye problem is to remove the eye. That does make a lot of difference and may give a normal life or of course the other eye could also deteriorate. Mine coped fine with an eye removed, far happier and less panicky.
However to even begin to do anything you have to identify an eye problem beyond doubt .

To even begin on eyes put a mask on and use black tape to black out vision in one eye. Leave the mask on and let him carry on as normal, take him for a walk like that. Give it a few days and change sides with the tape and black out the other. That may tell you something. It may calm his behaviour even a small amount and give you an idea this needs further consideration.

I do understand Chickendreams where you are coming from and if someone told you there is no choice but to PTS because X is your problem and it is going to get worse it may be a lot easier to accept.
 
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